Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Long Range Hunting Bullets for Long Range Hunting

I am not starting this post so as to have a repeat of what has happened at other sites and I don't mean this as a flame. I am new to rifles, but not hunting (lived in IN where only shotguns are allowed for big game) and am curious as to how long range hunting is done. Now that I've posted my disclaimer I'll get to my question.
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<br>I am curious as to your selection of bullets for long range hunting. Obviously you guys have had success using Matchkings, but was wondering why? I'm not gonna get into the, "they are not designed for hunting" debate because from your experiences they work. However, I find it hard to believe that they are the best there for this application. Money is not object when setting up the gun and I'm sure someone could custom make bullets that fly as well or better with even a better design for hunting. Looking at the Cabela's Shooting Catalog I noticed the Lost River bullets and they 'seem' better, but are they just more expensive. I'd appreciate any and all opinions.

The reason we or should I say most Long Range hunter's use MatchKing's is that there is'nt another bullet for caliber that is as accurate or has a higher B.C than the match king.Yes the Lost River Bullet's look very good on paper.And in time they may prove themselve's.But for now the MatchKing is still the KING for Long Range work.If you really want to know how it is done.Go to www.longrangehunting.com and read some of the post's there.There is some of the best LRH's in the country on that forum....

It is true that Matchkings we developed for target work. However, thru countless hours of research it led several people to actually cut in half just about every bullet used for hunting. The Matchking and suposed target bullet actually has thicker walls and is designed better than the beloved hunting bullets. To date all animals that were taken with the matchings were killed quickly and the bullet perfrmed as any intended huntng bullet.
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<br>We kinda feel if you can reliably use a bullet designed for accuracy work as a hunting bullet you have the best of both worlds.

Thanks all for the civil replies, that is the kind of infor I was looking for. Boyd, thanks for the tip on the website! I gotta get to the range more often, 100yds still looks like a long way!!!!:)

Boyd, thanks for the link,thats the site I was refering to in the other thread, somehow forgot to bookmark it. Was wondering,how do you think the Matchkings would perform at closer ranges, ie. higher velocities. They are built somewhat along the general structure of a BT or Scirrocco are'nt they, minus the tip? I'm mainly wondering about fragmentation at higher velocities. Nosler in their manuals warn you not to use the BTs when bullet impact velocity will be in excess of 3100fps, and I think theres probably a lot of hunters not knowing that, have had bad experiences with them. Just a guess but from reading posts about them you either love em or you hate em.With the 7mm RUM I'd be leaning towards the 150 gr matchkings. Just got some of the 150 gr Sciroccos loaded,have'nt got to try them yet. I could'nt agree with you more on the practice principle. Told a guy at work just the other day, on shooting at any yardage, that you've just got to practice till you you THINK you can do it and then go back and practice some more, till you KNOW you can. Jeff

JScottRupp,
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<br>The matchking I used at @70 yards did not explode or "pencil" thru. The wound channel looked like any other wound channel. I was using the 175 gr SMK fired from a 308 on a PA whitetail. In cutting in half the nosler and comparing them to the matchking the noslers have a much thinner wall than the matchking.
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<br>You have the right idea on the practice thing. Even when you know you can do what you intend, you need to keep on practicing to keep you at that level!!!
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<br>Unfortunatly we have had subzero temps as of late and I havn't been able to get out and squeeze the trigger.... needless to say the trigger finger is gettin' itchy

JScott.I shot a cull doe with a 220 MK out of my 300 Ultra mag at 31 yard's.My velocity was at 3058fps.The bullet broke one rib going in and broke three going out.The exit hole was somewhere between a tennis ball and a softball..Darry Cassel on this forum use them in his carry gun's.....He might be able to help you out more.I would however try the 168's out of your RUM....That 7 Rum is ONE BAD S.O.B.....I have an 7 stw that I'm thinking about having rechambered to 7 RUM....Darryl are you out there??????

JScott
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<br>The Match Kings ALL work well with about any caliber I have used them on game with.
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<br>Ihave used the 140, 142 and 155gr in my 6.5/300 Weatherbys, the 135gr in my 270, the 168 gr in my 7mm Mags and 7/300 Weatherbys, 200, 220 in a slew of 30 Cals and now I'm using the 300 Gr 338 and it is for a VERY long range rifle. Anytime I used them in any carry rifle such as my 280 (168 Gr) or my 270 (135 gr), They have expanded perfectly and there is NO fragmentation at all.
<br>I don't want a bullet that "Blows up" on contact.
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<br>I think you would like the MKs especially the 168 gr in the 7RUM if you decide to Longrange deer or elk hunt with that rifle. It has a MUCH better BC then the 150 gr.
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<br>Darryl

Gentlemen. I discussed your game bullet choices with the Tech Reps at Sierra sometime back. They, the makers, don't recommens them for big game, at all.
<br> What I was told is to get true expansion, the impact velocity has to be on the order of 2300-2400 fps. Anything slower, and expansion is erratic, and the bullet has a tendency to tip over.
<br> Jacket thickness is only one quality. Core composition is another, as well as jacket hardness, etc.
<br> Shooting a deer at close range with a magnum proves nothing. Those bullets have been used for years by many. Sometimes they work, sometimes they don't. If you want to put up with their lack of consistancy-by using an extra powerfull magnum-that's your call. But I submit there are many far better designs availiable for game shooting. I mean, do you really need the so called accuracy edge under 500 yds ? I doubt it.
<br> I know, quite well, a couple of guys that use 7mm-300 Wbys to shoot deer at ranges up to 800 yds. They use the Nosler Partition. E
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Darryl, This ones for you to answer...
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<br>BTW he visited them at Sierra...

Hello
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<br>For what it's worth. Since this is a Longrange thread and we want to answer as best we can all questions as to what we have found.
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<br>It has been mentioned, the most accurate bullet for the LONGRANG hunter to date and at a very good price, is the Sierra MK. We must include the Jenson bullets here also.
<br>The jackets on the MKs are thicker then some of the so called hunting bullets.
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<br>At excess range any other bullet including the Noslers will simply NOT shoot as flat AND accurate as the MK because of the lower bullet BC of the hunting style bullets. Your buddy may do just fine at 500 yards but, when he reaches on out, he will see a complete difference in bullet flight between the MK and the Partition EVEN AT THE SAME SPEED.
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<br>At close range, with the 280 or 270, I have never had a problem using the MK.
<br> At extreme longrange out to 2100 yards on elk the same results. Small entrance hole and large exit holes from the size of a grapfruit to that of a vollyball.
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<br>Have only recovered 2 Mks from elk (the rest penitrated all the way through) that were on the far side of the animal and just under the skin. They were mushroomed as perfect as any so called hunting bullet you have ever seen.
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<br>I have a VERY good friend that is a ballistics tech at Sierra (Rich Markholz) and he knows exactly what we do with the Sierra MK. He gave My wife and I a very nice tour of the plant several years ago. The reason they say their MKs are not reccommended for game is;
<br>1. They don't want the average hunter without the proper equipment, barrel twists and experiance to use them and possibly have negative results. We try for bullet placement into the vital area (always and at any range) and never shoot at a running animal as I have seen many short range hunters do. This is how bullets get a bad rap.
<br>2. They probably don't want to loose their hunting line of bullets when people find out how good the MK really works. (My opinion).
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<br>Have used them for many years in several calibers at short and long range and they have not failed me or ANY of my short or longrange friends that have used them .
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<br>If you haven't tried them, you would not realize or know how good they really perform and to make a comparison, I have.
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<br>As a matter of fact, I have just been sent Barnes bullets for testing and they are like any other so called hunting bullets as per the lower BC. Testing is not complete yet.
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<br>Later
<br>Darryl Cassel

I have you ever done some 'controlled' penetration tests to compare them to other bullets? I would very interested in hearing of the findings if you have.

Only actual field testing for over 40 years now. I believe there was another fellow or two on another site that did do some testing and found that the MK did quite well when compared to many of the hunting bullets in penitration tests. I don't remember their names.
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<br>The penitration, killing ability, top accuray level and High BC is the bullet my LR friends and I have counted on in many different calibers and yardages over the years.
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<br>Would we change now, yes, if we could find an even BETTER bullet to use other then the MK.
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<br>It has worked for us in the Longrange and shortrange fields and mountains and the actual testing has been done and proved , time and time again.
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<br>Matchkings work my friend.
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<br>Darryl Cassel
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Darryl, we have hunting bullets that open well at impact velocities as low as 1600 fps. We have bullets that retain 90% of their intial weight. Now, your not trying to tell me that the MatchKings will do that are you ?
<br> They aren't even close.
<br> Don't get me wrong. I applaud your restraint. You shoot only when conditions, including the shot angle, are ideal. You take only nice clear shots at the chest area of your critters. You use catriages with lots of power, etc. You practice alot. Great.
<br> The MatchKings are the best ? Why ? Because they are more accurate than any others ? I've got a couple of rifles that put Barnes X's consistantly into less than .5 MOA. Not even the military snipers need more than that.
<br> Ballistic coeffiecents of the MatchKings are higher ? So what ? They lay into the wind a little better. Big deal. What is a couple of inches at 500-600 yds. ? Less than one MOA on the windage adjustment of your scope.
<br> The remaining velocity is a little higher ? Again, so what ? If the bullet won't open, or retain it's weight properly, it's impact velocity is pointless.
<br> Run over to JJ post on the African board, and look at his recovered bullets. Your MatchKings can't do anything like that.
<br> As a rule, all but the bonded design boat tail bullets loose their cores very easily. BTW, what is your take on the Swift Scirocco ? Now, your not going to tell me their too expensive are you ? I thought you guys spend something like $12,000 on your equipment. What is a few more bucks on some first class game bullets ?
<br> All of them deflect very readily when they hit brush. In deflection tests done with Federal Throphy Bonded ammo, it was found that, when shooting through glass, that load didn't change course, unlike their MatchKing loaded match ammo did. This is worth something to a hunter.
<br> The other is the penetration needs. My experience with older game animals is that it foolish to limit yourself to loads that have a narrow range of applications. We have ammo that will penetrate quite well at less than ideal angles. And, sometimes, that the best one can hope for in the field.
<br> This is not theory. I've got over 40 years, and over a 100 critters, of experience too. You, and your friends, do it right. I've got no problem with your long range tactics. But I do take exception to your "MatchKings are the best" opinion.
<br> Get a copy of Mike Lau's book,"The Military and Police Sniper." Turn to page 102. There is a picture of a buck killed with a couple of MatchKings. And a warning not to use them. From the good folks at Sierra. And from the guy that killed this buck. E
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Ric,
<br>Our stuff is in the mail. Gotta go load some more 300gr
<br>Matchkings for them SLO-GOATS !

Eremicus,
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<br>You bring up some valid points. I have a few questions.
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<br>You say that you shoot .5 MOA that's great shooting but.. how far will your rifle hold .5 MOA I highly doubt that the flat base bullet will hold .5 MOA out to 1500 yards, I'm not sure if it will hold .5 MOA to 1000 yards.
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<br>The BC and ability to lay into the wind are a BIG deal. The impact velocities are higher because of that. Who said these bullets don't open up or retain weight?
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<br>Matchkings don't have to perform like your bullets. All they have to do is perform in such a way that they quickly and efficiently kill game without wounding. Trouble is they DO just that! As quickly and efficiently as your bulets.
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<br>The deflection testing your talking about. I hope you don't make it a habit to shoot into brush or trees. What angle was the glass at during those test. When was the last time you shot through glass to kill an animal?
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<br>You bring up a point about spending a few more bucks for a big game bullet, valid but shoot a couple 1000 rounds a year. If they work why change?
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<br>I havn't read Mike Lau's book yet. He is very respected in the sniper world, but I am not sure how many animals he has shot with a matchking.
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Hello
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<br>Sorry for the delay in responding, was at the Eye Doctor.
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<br>First to answer your question a bit further concerning Match Kings.
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<br>I'm not trying to tell YOU anything other then how well the MK works on game from actual field testing and kills for many years.
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<br>As far as .5 MOA, please take that to 1000 yards and beyond and tell me that the Barnes , Nosler or any other bullet besides maybe the Jenkens, will be as accurate, retain the energy, and shoot as flat as the Sierra Match King in the SAME weight and Caliber. It WON"T happen as I have tried them.
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<br>If you use something else and it works for you, by all means continue to do so. Don't ever switch if your happy with what you shoot and believe in. I'm only telling you or anyone on this LONGRANGE forum fact concerning our experiance with the MK.
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<br>The bullet cost is not the factor at all either.
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<br>500 or 600 yards is NOT a Longrange shot for us and the Sierra Match Kings have always provided us with extremely fast kills at ranges two and three times that far and further.
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<br>If you or anyone have not tried them, you can't possibly know what they will do at yardages beyond 600 to 1600 yards for instance. Yes, with our equipment we can shoot that far VERY accuratly and that's exactly why we use the MK.
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<br>We have tried the Barnes, Noslers, Speer and Hornady and found they didn't shoot as flat, were not as accurate and did not retain the energy that we saw when hits were made with the Sierra MK.
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<br>Regardless if a company makes a statement as to their thoughts on the product and possibly didn't try them out themselves on live game, they too would not know how they react on animals.
<br>That would be like an automobile company stating their cars will go 120 Miles per hour but, THEY DON'T RECOMMEND you doing that.
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<br>We have used the MKs, and we know what they do. The good folks at Sierra know what we do with their bullets as, I report to them every year after our longrange hunts. The reason I do that is to let them know that their MK bullets are VERY good LR killers.
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<br>They simply don't want them being used by those who don't place their shots and are the 3 day a year hunter and don't have the correct equipment toi do what we do. I can't blame them for that.
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<br>As I stated above, if you or anyone else don't want to try them, please don't. We are only stating how good they have been for "us" and we shoot VERY LONGRANGE with them, not just 500 or 600 yards.
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<br>I said in the other post, I have used them in carry guns of the 270 and 280 calibers and they performed perfectly at close range too, you may have missed that.
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<br>I don't know of ONE LR hunter in the Northern Counties of PA and those I know that hunt the western States every year that don't use MKs for hunting. I'm sure there might be some but, I don't know of any.
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<br>Darryl
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Darryl, I'm not arguing with you, but it did raise a question in my mind. Here's a quote from your above post.
<br>"They simply don't want them being used by those who don't place their shots and are the 3 day a year hunter and don't have the correct equipment toi do what we do. I can't blame them for that."
<br>With that train of thought then why in the world does Nosler promote Ballistic Tips as good big game hunting bullets? From my own field experience they are NOT a good big game bullet. Guess Nosler doesn't have the same level of conscience as Sierra.
<br>More back on topic have you guys experimented with Hornady's SST or the Scirocco's?
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Hello Big Sky
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<br>Have not tried the Scirrocos.
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<br>Reason being, the Sierra MK has done so well after the other bullet lines we did test that, most all of the LR crowd just stayed with the MK.
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<br>The Comment concerning the placement of the bullet and the 3 day a year hunter was repeated to me and was also my own personall thoughts to.
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<br>Those who have never used them (MK) would not believe how well they do.
<br>We could argue about Match Kings forever but, the fact remains they are an extremely excellent bullet for hunting deer and elk size animals at about any range I have ever used them. You have to see the actual kill to believe it.
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<br>Darryl
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Darryl, I remember an add that Sierra ran once, way back in the 60's. It seems that 5 hunters from the east traveled west to hunt deer and elk. They all used 30'06 rifles, and the 168 gr. MK. They did well, and told Sierra about it. Sierra, to promote their fine products, published the letter, in the form of an add, in the American Rifleman.
<br> After that, the story goes, they got quite a bit of negative feed back. From dissatisfied user of that bullet. They then started making the 165gr. GameKing HP, and recommending it, not the 168 gr. MatchKing as a game bullet.
<br> You see Darryl, they do know something about making bullets. They get lots of feedback, not only from guys like you and yours, but many other users as well.
<br> The idea that they don't want everybody to know what a fine game bullet the MatchKing is, is pure non sense. They are in the bussiness of making, and selling, bullets. If that bullet was any where near as reliable a game bullet, as their other products, they would push it. Or, at least, not recommend against using it as a game bullet. It does feature fine accuracy, and BC. I use their ordinary hunting bullets as practice bullets because they shoot extremely well.
<br> But to say the MatchKing is a great hunting bullet, at ordinary game ranges is just not what many have discovered the hard way. And Sierra is the first one to say so.
<br> Again, we aren't talking about the specialized long range shooting you guys do so well at. You shoot under very strict rules, and really know your loads. E
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HELLO
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<br>I do believe I mentioned that the Sierra MKs have worked fine for "my friends and I" at short range and at extreme longrange.
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<br>I have no complaint against the Sierra MKs I have ever used on game. They have expanded well and kill much better then you seem to think they can. They also perform better then some of the so called hunting bullets for "us."
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<br>I'm not sure if you have ever used them or not because you keep refering back to something you read 30 years ago or that Sierra doesn't recommend them.
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<br>Have you had a bad experiance with the bullet or have you not used them for hunting at all? You yourself just said how well they shoot for you.
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<br>As I stated before, if you have never used them, you would NOT know what they will do at any range, would you?
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<br>My main Calibers at present for LR hunting are the 338/416 Rigby Imp using the 338--300 Gr MK and the 220 Gr MK in the Big 30s such as 30/378 Weatherby. The 6.5/300 Weatherby does quite well with the 142 Gr Mk also as does the 7/300 Weatherby using the 168 Gr MK.
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<br>All these MKs work extremely well on game at any range "I" have ever killed them at.
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<br>I do have MANY longrange friends that use NOTHING but Sierra MKs and we all can't be wrong now can we ?
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<br>So, if you haven't tried them could you really know how they perform? If you have had a bad experiance using them, Please tell us about it.
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<br>We as experianced LR hunters HIGHLY recommend the Sierra MK for our style of hunting and they also work for us in our carry guns when we shoot at short range.
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<br>If "you" can't accept that, I can't help it, it's a fact. Match Kings work.
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<br>Later
<br>Darryl

No, Darryl. I've never used one. I just can't help but note that the folks that make them don't recommend them . You keep going back to how well they work under strickly controlled conditions. You don't answer my points.
<br> What do I have to point out now ? I've pointed out how they perform. Reported by the folks that make them.
<br> I don't hear anything about shooting through animals except at nice clear, broadside shots. Shots where I've seen .22 centerfires, with varmit bullets, work fine. Can your MatchKings shoot through shoulders on elk class stuff ? Can they shoot through an elk class critter from shoulder to hip ?
<br> How come you guys don't take bad angle shots ? Have you found that your MatchKings don't work that way ?
<br> I'll tell you what my problem is. I dislike hearing about how great something is, when even the folks that make them say they aren't. E

Hello
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<br>That's exactly what I'm talking about. You guys who have never used them question their ability and have Not used them at all. How would you EVER know how good or bad they are.
<br>You can't seem to believe someone or several people who have had fantastic results with the MK and that's a pity.
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<br>Controlled situations??? FYI--I have shot deer lengthwise on several occasions and the bullet went in the chest and exited out his rear end.
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<br>On elk, we have killed many that went through one or both shoulders and exited out the far side. We only recovered two bullets out of 20 elk and those were on the far side of the animal just under the skin AFTER it went through the opposit shoulder.
<br>At 2100 yards the 300 gr 338 bullet went in the right side of the elk just behind the right shoulder and exited through the far left shoulder completely. The elk was standing on an angle.
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<br>That is bullet stability and extreme killing ability regardless of what you think.
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<br>We have made angle shots on large elk and the bullet performed better then most hunting bullets would have.
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<br>Like I said, if you haven't used them AT ALL, how can you even reply in a negative OR Positive way?
<br>All you state is that Sierra don't recommend them.
<br>Please do me a favor and don't use them then.
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<br> There are many who are and getting fine results from them and they are both short or longrange hunters.
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<br>I'm simply pointing out facts here of many years of hunting in all ways.
<br>Until one uses them, they will NEVER know will, they?
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<br>Darryl
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Oh, thank you Darryl. All I have to do is go to the 300 gr., .338 MatchKing in your .338 wildcat, and I will get the performance I've been getting with the 160 gr. 7 mm Partition.
<br> That's what I suspected.
<br> I want to thank you for your time. I'm impressed with what you guys do. 2000 yds. you say ? Wow ! E

Ya know this is the kind of stuff that makes me turn inside out.... here we have a guy who is just trying to share knowledge and inform and he gets in return sarcasm....
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<br>UNFREAKINBELIEVABLE!!!!!!!!!!

Your "very" confused on that statement. It's not "JUST" the 300 Gr 338 Mk that will do it.
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<br>Actually, the 200 Gr Sierra Matchking in the 30/378 and the 168 Gr in the 7/300 Weatherby did the same thing at yardages from 1150 yards to 1360 Yards we have made kills on also. We like the 338--300 gr for yardages out past 1400 yards.
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<br> One frontal shot I recall on an elk, with the 168 Gr in a 7/300 Weatherby at 1150 yards went in at the juncture of the neck and the chest and exited out part way back in the rib cage on the opposit side. The elk was standing with a slight angle toward us.
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<br>Both Of the above mentioned Mks did inneed penitrate clear through.
<br>The 200 Gr I remember on one Bull went through BOTH shoulders at 1360 Yards.
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<br>Yes, even the smaller bullets (168 Gr and 200 Gr) will do what your partitions are capable of, only at a MUCH further range then your 5 or 6 hundred yards you have experiance with. I believe you mentioned that range didn't you?
<br>I believe I said at the time, our shots are not That "Close" unless we are hunting short range and with carry guns.
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<br>Again I will make this statement,
<br>Your Partitions Would "NEVER" do to game what the MK does to it "at the ranges we shoot". Reason being, they don't have the BC to retain the speed and energy that far or retain their accuracy. That's exactly why we use the Sierra MK.
<br> Are you still Unclear on that? I can give more comparisons if you really want to hear it. I'm 62 years old, have been shooting a long time and have seen what the differences are. I didn't just come on the scene.
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<br>To sum this up a bit further, Maybe you should continue to use your partitions and stiick to shots no further then 500 or 600 hundred yards (that your used to) and my LR friends and I will continue to use the Sierra Match Kings and both of us will be happy?
<br>Your never going to use MKs and I will NEVER use Partitions after I saw the results of bullet flight down range and the poor accuracy they gave in excess of 800 yards. Maybe 500 or 600 they are fine for you but, for me, I want the MKs performance and "Accuracy."
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<br>The BIG difference here is, I've tried the Partitions and they are not VERY accurate at the ranges we shoot. You admited you have not tried the Sierra MK. I guess that says something.
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<br>I'll give you this as sort of a compremise, for the hunter wanting to make short shots, the partition OR the MK will work just fine. Anything past 500 yards stick to the MOST accuracy you can and try the Sierra MK. It will do the job on deer and elk size animals.
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<br>Thanks for your input.
<br>Darryl

Thank you for the reply WYO
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<br>I was thinking and wondering that also.
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<br>Darryl

Think I'll jump in here. I have found that the matchkings in .243 in the 4-600 yd range for praire dogs work much better than the Sierra varmiteers that they offer. I have no doubt that they would work better than most hunting bullets at those ranges. I realize this 4-600 yd is not long range by the long range shooters. But what most shooter don't know and the LR shooters haven't stated is that out about 500 yards, a good bullet goes to sleep as some call it. It really doesn't settle down until then. After that. it is almost perfectly stabilized and will continue in flight with very little if any devaition except shedding velocity. A lot of the premium hunting bullets just never get there. However, there are better bullets for short range hunting. One particular is the Sierra Round Nose. A lot of hunters have forgotten about these bullets or never used them . The same thing, They never used them, but complain they are not accurate. They will indeed do everything a BT will do out to 300 yds. I'm not a proponent of using premium bullets. I don't travel a long ways for my hunt, and I hunt longer and can pass up shots if I need to. But the bullets I use, kill just as effectively as any premium bullets I have heard about. I don't buy the arguement that premiums give you an edge against a bad angle. Hell, don't take the shot if it's bad. I don't care if you have $10,000 wrapped up in the hunt, if it ain't right don't take it. I have used Sierra bullets exclusively for over 30 years. If it ain't broke , no need to fix it. But I think anyone that thinks one bullet can do it all is missing the boat, and anyone that flat out says a certain bullet won't do a job is missing the boat also. I just don't like a grapfruit size exit hole becasue there is too much blood shot meat around it. Certainly if you hit a shoulder on the far side, I imagine you pretty much would have to throw it away if you had that size exit hole.
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<br>I wouldn't reccomend Matchkings or any BT in dense timer with 15 yard shots, nor would I reccomend round nose bullets in open country past 250 yds.
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<br>BTW. I used Matchkings for about 15 years in competition, for 600 yds. However, for 200-300 yds, I used the cheapest bullet I could find, as long as they would shoot in the 10 or X ring. Kinda the same for hunting, dead is dead whether you shoot them with a 25 cent bullet or a $2 one.

Very good thought Saddlesore.
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<br>As you have implied, to each is own as to the pick of bullets for the application. I agree 100%
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<br>If you ever get back to PA, give me a call.
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<br>Darryl

Eremicus, you know I was with you right up until your last post. I respect your opinions on most things, but you are being awfully bull headed on this bullet debate. These guys as a rule aren't tooling through the hills will 8-9 pound rifles, sneaking, stalking, running and gunning. From what I gather most of the time they spend a lot of time glassing from specific places and are shooting highly specialised rifles that weigh 20 lbs or more. At the long distances they can shoot, they have the luxury of picking and choosing their shots. Because of this they are somewhat limited to where and how they can hunt. If they can see it, and can get set up, I'm pretty sure they can catch it. It's not at all like the type of hunting you do, therefore their choice of bullet and style of hunting negates the majority of your argument. Just for the record I don't shoot out past 400 yards as a rule. I spend most of my day on the move and I'm rarely in one spot long enough to justify toting a 30 pound rifle. When I'm hunting for antlers I take whatever shot is presented if I think it will kill what I'm after. That means broadside, stem to stern or vise versa, crossways...whatever. That probably doesn't rest well with some folks, but I sleep at night just fine. When I hunt for meat I'm far more selective in where that bullet goes. Bottom line when I'm after antlers I want a bullet that will pretty much take care of any situation I'm presented that will kill the deer I'm after. Since my limitation are 400yds or less a Nosler Partition works exceptionally well for me, I also very much like what I've seen the Barnes X do. However if I were only hunting in a long range situation with highly specialised equipment you can bet I'd be giving those Match Kings a try. In other words "when in Rome, do as the Romans do."

Eremicus:
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<br>Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and I usually respect yours, but in this case you are telling someone how their bullets shouldn't perform when they are saying that on multiple occasions in actual hunting situations at widely varying distances they have performed more than adequately and they have some positive qualities associated with MKs that other brands or types of bullets don't have. Unless you believe they are flat out fibbing, which I absolutely don't(and what would they have to gain) then what more proof can you reasonably expect? You are taking the word of a ballistician at Sierra above actual results. Doesn't make sense.
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<br>I happen to have a few thousand 168 gr .308 MKs and some 200s laying about and I am going to go out and do my best to shoot a feral hog with one in either a .308 or a .30-06, but unless it is big one, recovery is unlikely, but I will report results if I can get a hog to cooperate.
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<br>PS: I hate to repeat second hand information but I have asked several very competent deer hunting friends of mine if they have ever used a MK to shoot a deer with over the years, and they all said yes and they all said it stoned the animal. Now that is only about 3 people as I recall, but I know these guys and know they had no reason not to tell it exactly like it happened. I believe them and I believe the LR hunters about their performance. The idea that Mks are the absolute best choice under all circumstances at all ranges is ludicrous, but that is not what they are saying. Nor is any other bullet.

IIFID.....Very well said.............................

Somebody (I don't recall who) asked why the LR hunters shoot animals standing broad side. To me, it is very logical to shoot big game animals as they are "standing" broad side. Quite simply, I offers the largest target area.
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<br>I am not a LR hunter compared to Darryl, Boyd, WY and others that kill large game at ranges most wouldn't or couldn't even fathom. My abilities are limited to 650 yards on whitetail deer. I ALWAYS wait for the "Standin Still" broadside shot for the simple reason it offers the largest area. I do "try" to put the bullet right behind the shoulder, giving me a double lung shot. In the past 3 years all of my kills on deer (at what I consider long range) have been double lung shots. Every single bullet (at long range) has exited. I use 180gr ballistic tips out of a 300 win mag.
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<br>On another note I use 52gr berger bullets out of my 22 CHeetah for killing woodchucks. It is true that one time the bullet will "pencil hole" and another time it will EXPLODE but, it should be added that in every case the woodchuck died. I have had rather short shots (out to 200 yards) where that bullet went in and didn't exit at all, resulting in instant death to the woodchuck.
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<br>Would I use that bullet for deer? Damned straight I would. Hit in the neck, the deer is going to drop like a rock. Although I don't generally go for a neck shot on deer with my 300 win mag I wouldn't hesitate using the 22 caliber. The neck of a deer is a larger target then the entire body of a woodchuck. With my scope set at 24X the neck of a deer sure looks like a HUGE target area.
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<br>Don
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Don Knows, while I know what you are saying I would think twice about that neck shot. While the neck is bigger than a chuck the vertabrae isn't. If you miss the bone, then have fun tracking. I did just that this year with a Ballistic Tip (which I have a very low opinion of.) I hit the deer right smack dab in the neck from about 150 yards. It flatten the deer for about 10 seconds then it got up and ran away. It took a while but I caught up with it and finished the job. Upon skinning I discovered my shot was right on the money but the 165 BT out of my 30.06 did not penetrate the bone. It basically blew up a baseball sized whole upon entry and flew to pieces on the neck bone. Must of hurt like he!!, and I felt bad the deer had to suffer. I shot another deer a while back that was running straight away at a steep up hill angle. The 165 BT caught him right along the left side of his back bone just ahead of the hip. It traveled about 8" making a huge mess, but it did not break any bone. The bullet just fragmented into nothing. It hurt the deer real bad and it was a short trip to find and finish him off. However an educated guess says that if I had been using a Partition that buck would of dropped on the first shot. I tried those friggin BT's for two years, a mistake I won't repeat. Partitions and X's for me thanks. Now if I ever get this LR stuff figgered out I may give those MK a try.

Sky. dead right. Too high in the neck and you nip a high spine on the vertebrae. Deer goes down like a rock, jumps up like a rabbit and usaully is never seen again. Too low and you clip the esophagus, resulting in a deer that usaully gets away and slowly dies of starvation and gangrene.I doubt if a 22 cal/60 gr bullet at 3000fps + would even penetarte to the spine unless it sheds a lot of velocity pretty quick. Especially when I have seen 130-140 gr BT's blow up at the same speeds without reaching vitals.

I could not in good faith trade projectile integrity,for solely a BC increase. That because I've nuked too many "lesser" bullets,because I favor cartridges that have some "giddyup",to them. Before the question is asked,yes I've had pards nuke the SMK's too,out of Hot30's at "close-ish" distances,as Eremicus related some while ago and has been printed prior. They immediately abandoned them,as one naturally would. I'm not bad-mouthing anyone's choice in bullets,but relating I'd opt differently.
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<br>Were my intent to bust critters from extreme distance,I'd quit polishing turds and have the tool for the job. The 50BMG. It can be made extremely accurate,naturally has oodles of energy and projectiles with both great integrity and BC's over 1.00 are readily available.
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<br>That doubly so,consideing the rifles mentioned are not configured in typical Hunting rifle guise. That due to barrel length,overall weight,etc.
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<br>There is zero doubt,if I lived DownSouth,I'd have a McMillan 50. If only as a Play Toy.....................
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I find the neck shot to be the worst crippler of game ever. If you hit the spine it will drop like a bag of potatoes. If you hit too high, you do nothing but give a nasty wound that the animal will die of infection from. If you hit too low and don't get one of the arteries, you give it another wound it will die slowly and painfully from.
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<br>The hunters I know who use the neck shot say they use it to reduce damaged meat. My advice to them is a lung shot. How much meat is on a rib? Is it worth crippling an animal to save a pound or two of meat. Besides, are they going to starve if they don't get that extra 2 pounds of meat?
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<br>A guy I work with shot a moose a few years back in the neck. Instant drop. While he was digging out his camera, the moose jumped up and ran off. He trailed it for over 2 miles but never found it. I guess he was worried about only having 700 pounds of meat instead of 702lbs. Over the years, he has lost several other animals because of the neck shot. Of course, he claims it is the only shot to take and will not change. Go figure.
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<br>I prefer to put my animal down as quickly as possible with the highest percentage shot. I don't shoot animals in the neck or in the butt because, frankly, I'm not starving and don't need the meat that bad. I still shoot my 5 or 6 animals every year just fine using a shoulder or lung shot. My kids aren't starving yet.

Add to that the "shoot them in the head guys". I have seen more than one deer with its jaw blown off because some idiot thought he could head shoot a deer at 300 yards. Doesn't give any room for error. But I guess some guys are perfect.

Yes. I am being bull headed about this. I never said they don't work at all. I just take exception to them being the perfect game bullet at any range.
<br> It is not some opinion of some tech rep vs. all these LR experts. It is Sierra's company policy to specifically recommend these bullets not be used on big game. They get feedback from far more users than these guys.
<br> Again, these bullets don't see real expansion unless the impact velocities are 2300-2400 fps. They also have a bad habit of tiping over due to the fact that most of their weight is in the butt of the bullet. This is what the Sierra tech rep told me was the feedback they got from many users of this bullet, etc.
<br> Contrast this to the fact that the Nosler Partition has been used all over the world for many years. It is the standard by which all premium bullets are judged.
<br> Now these come along and tout the GameKing as "the near perfect game bullet at any range."
<br> Sure. And tommorow the sun shall rise in the west. E
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Saddle,
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<br>I should have added to my above post as to velocity. My bad, sorry.
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<br>I push a 52gr berger bullet at 4280 FPS. It does shoot rather flat to 660 yards. I have killed deer with it to 400 yards, I have yet to have one get up and go anywhere. They just plain drop. I will add, neck shots, double lung shots, and even gut shots, they just plain drop. I have yet to try a "Texas Heart Shot".
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<br>Sky,
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<br>I am not calling you a liar but you are the only person I have ever heard of that had BT blow up on a neck shot on a deer. I have hit deer, broadside, at 420 yards, in the spine, it broke the deer in 2 and the exit hole was about 2 1/2" in diameter. What happened to you, I would consider a "fluke". I have killed a lot of deer using the 180gr ballistic tips and I have never lost a deer using them. The furthest any deer has ever gone on me using that bullet is 30 yards, most drop on the spot. I use BT's because they have a high BC and just plain shoot better then "most" hunting bullets out there. Seems most hunters either love em or hate em, I love em.
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<br>Have a good one all,
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<br>Don
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Does anyone besides me think that Nosler Partitions are not very accurate? I guess I'm just cursed but I find Nosler Partitions to be on the low end of acceptable accuracy in almost every rifle I have tried them in. Now if MOA plus is Ok, then they are OK, but I like mine to hold a good bit tighter than that.

Hello E
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<br>Since you refered to "Now these come along" in your Post to If it Flies, I guess that means me or one of the other LR hunters.
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<br>I would like to respond to your post if I may.
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<br>First it was not the Game King (in your Post) we had been talking about, it was the Match King unless I missed something, which is possible.
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<br>Next, NOBODY ever said the MK was the Perfect bullet. We all know there is no such thing for every situation.
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<br>We/I only said, it worked for us, as longrange shooters, at much further yardages then the 5 or 600 yards that you said you shot the Partitions at. The MK also worked for us at short range too. I also mentioned that, we want the most accurate bullet we can get and the Nosler is most certainly not that bullet at the ranges we shoot. The MK "is" so far though.
<br>That, was what I said. I/we didn't say that it was the PERFECT bullet as you mentioned.
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<br>I have a question that you may want to relate to Nosler. Do you think they would recommend, "for every Hunter" their 150 or 160 gr 7mm Partition bullet at 500 or 600 yards (I believe you mentioned that one) for big game, AND put that in writing?
<br>If you think for a moment they would, then the sun Will certainly come up in the West tomorrow.
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<br>You know darn well they wouldn't. No bullet company would make that recommendation just like Sierra won't recommend Match Kings for EVERY hunters situation so they just say don't use them period. I really don't care what a tech at Sierra says because I have seen what the MK does first hand and will continue using them unless they stop production.
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<br>As far as the bullet tumbling, all high BC Boat tail bullets will start to tumble when the velocity drops to around 1000 FPS or a little less on it's downward path.
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<br>The Nosler Partition is not perfect and neither is any other bullet including the MK.
<br>For "our" application, the MK is our favorite bullet. For "YOUR" application, the Partition is the bullet.
<br>Not a problem for me at all, I can live with your bullet selection. Maybe you should try to live with our selection also?
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<br>Later
<br>Darryl
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Thanks to all you guys for the info,some good points and counter points there.I think I'll probably buy a box this weekend and give em a shot(as much as I hate to put it that way) ASAP anyway and see how they look on paper. If I listened to all I'v been told about bullet do's and don'ts, I would'nt be shooting the BTs. Like both Don and I said you either love em or hate em and the haters seem to outnumber us 98% to 2% but that means more for us. I also would never have thought about using a polymer or nylon tipped bullet on elk but theres an article in the last Handloader where they're doing exactly that with the 7mm Sciroccos. I 'll definitely take a look at them anyway.
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<br>Wyowhisper,know how you feel about the weather,thought the snow would about be melted this weekend and I could get up there and do some shooting and spotting,but drove home in near white out conditions tonite,AARRGGHH!
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<br>Boyd, I'v actually had the 7RUM since last spring,its still new to me, I got the first one in the area, the 300s were selling like crazy and I spent weeks reading everything I could find on them and walked into the store cash in hand and the guy said "yeah we just got a few 7mms in". Back to the magazine rack! Was'nt much to read about that caliber but I think I made the right choice for my app.s. If you have'nt already,check out Gene Williams post "Report on the 7mm ultra mag" in Reloading ,Big Game Rifles. He was kind enough to Email me some advice on working up loads so when I get done testing I'll post the 26 in. bbl versus 29.5. Its a sweet shooting rifle,made the mistake of letting a buddy shoot it the first time out, just about had to wrestle him to get it back. Talk to you later, Jeff
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If it Flies -
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<br>I've never found the Partition to be the most accurate bullet in any given rifle, either, although I do have a 7RMAG in which the 150 Partition gives the old Solid Base (now THAT was an accurate bullet) a run for its money. They've always been acceptable, in the MOA+ range as you mentioned, which actually should be okay for most hunting circumstances in which they'd be used, but, it's nice to have a bullet that you KNOW is going to go right where you want it to.
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<br>R-WEST
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If It Flies... My experience with Nosler Partitions is limited to a few rifles, and in all but one I never got very good accuracy. In my 06, which grouped .70 MOA with Sierra Game Kings at 100 yards, the best I could do with Nosler Partitions was a group over 2 inches. In my heavy barrelled 6mm however, 95 grain NP bullets outperformed any other bullets I tried. It puts 5 of the Partitions in a slightly oval hole. So, my very limited anecdotal evidence suggests inconsistent accuracy in the Nosler Partitions.
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<br>The tone of the LR threads bothers me. I'm fascinated with the technology and skill of LR hunting, and put off by its proponents. It comes over to me like somone with a thin skin claiming inffallability. There have been some shots from opponents, true, but everytime I try to just read to learn from LR experience, I feel like these guys are patronizing me. LR hunters seem to claim that their experience cannot be questioned, but the experience of anyone else is invalid. I'm also annoyed every time a LR evangelist says their opponents are claiming such shooting can't be done. That is shifting the ground of argument. I don't think anyone is saying an elk can't be killed cleanly at 2000 plus yards. Some are questioning the ethics, and some of the same are suspicious about the consistency claimed, especially with the bullets used. But no one is saying it can't be done. It is superb shooting.
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<br>Regarding bullets, if you read this entire thread, you have to come to one conclusion: That MK bullets perform better at ranges over 1000 yards than they do at usual hunting ranges, say under 300 yards. That conclusion is inescapable if you accept the manufacturer's analysis of its own bullet, based on feedback from many hunters, and you also accept the anecdotal evidence of the LR hunters. I don't think either source is lying. The bullets fail often enough that they got a bad rep among hunters. They have so far worked well for the LR hunters. A more likely explanation of this discrepancy in observed bullet performance is that the LR guys have so far beat the odds. I believe that the LR guys are waging a wonderful battle against simple physics, animal behaviour, and statistical probability, and have beat the odds so far if they have never lost an animal hit.
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<br>On bullet "failure" if a bullet performs 90% of the time to its max capability in terms of penetration and expansion, and the hunter places shots so well that he only needs that full capability for perhaps one animal in 20, then you can have a long, consistent string of quick kills. But the time is coming when the need for full performance on an animal converges with the one bullet in ten that delivers less. The hunter shooting such a bullet is on a collision course with reality unless he is very lucky, which I hope for him.
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<br>Just curious: how about this for a test? If we had one excellent marksman, a long range man, shoot the same rifle at two targets, one at say 1500 yards, the other at 100 yards. The targets could be the typical 8 or 10 inch plate to represent vitals, or we could make it more realistic and mark out a deer vital area on a life sized target and cover it with real deer hair. The shooter could have a spotter by his side with bigeyes and any other equipment. I would be willing to bet even money shot for shot, that he will hit the closer target and miss the farther one, if I could find a taker to bet he will hit the 1500 target and miss the 100 yard one. The more shots fired the better. The only catch is that the shooter has to be neutral and do his best to hit each shot.
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Hello
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<br>With my spotter and a spotter round fired first (as we always do while hunting) in front or behind the animal, I would take that bet. I would also only take the shot with the absence of wind gusts just like when we are hunting.
<br>Something else to remember, The elk kill zone is closer to 24 " and the deer is 16"to 18" which contains the heart and lungs.
<br>The elk especially have a large heart and very large lung area.
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<br>Darryl Cassel

I like that bet, I'll shoot an 8 inch plate at 100 yards and you and your spotter get the same target at 1500 yards. Shall we say a $1000 a shot, both hit, no pay, either miss and the other hits, pay on the spot in cash. Shoot until one side says "Uncle".

IIFID...So you are gonna shoot offhand at an 8 inch target at 100 yard's.And Darryl is gonna shoot at 1500 yard's with his 338-416 Rigby Imp with the 37"barrel.Shooting a 300gr MK at 3300fps.Using the same method he use's when he sit's up on a Deer.Am I correct so far?..Can I get in on this too?Sound's like an easy way to make a few thousand dollar's..:)

Ahem....ok let me get this straight..
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<br>IFID..is gonna shoot off hand with his rifle at 100 yards at an 8" plate. ie: a typical hunting situation.
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<br>Darryl, is gonna use his spotter, his rifle and his equipment, and get a spotter round. at a 24" plate at 1500 yards. ie: a typical hunting situation.
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<br>Ok is anyone allowed to get in on the betting?
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<br>I'll provide lodging and the range for the shoot...
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<br>this may take awhile to complete... come to think of it...
<br>we could be there for a week or so....

WyoWhisper, I think you got it right except, unless I'm reading it wrong IFID said that Darryl has to shoot at an 8" plate as well. Even if that's the case I wish I had the money to get in on this bet.

If
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<br>I believe the other poster said to shooT at 100 yards "AND" 1500 yards and see how many missed targets there were at 1500 yds as compared to 100 yards. He also said a 10" plate and you said 8".
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<br>I countered by saying the KILL area for an elk is 24". That means we have a window of 24" for the elk kill.
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<br>So, here is what I would bet "you". Since the yardage is 15X further at 1500 yards as to 100 yards, we will start with a 24" kill zone target at 1500 yards.
<br>Lets divide 15 into the 24 " and you now have a 1.60" target to shoot at 100 yards which is the equal size as to what I would be shooting at 1500 Yards as a comparison of difficulty.
<br>You can even set your hunting rifle in sandbags if you wish and NOW lets go for your bet? Sound good?
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<br>Probably the best scenerio would be for you to shoot off hand at the size plate (8") you mentioned and Boyd and I will shoot at the 24" kill zone target of 24" at 1500 Yards and see if you are still interested in the bet? This makes the difficulty more equal doesn't it?
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<br>Nobody EVER said we were able to put every shot in an 8" or 10" plate at 1500 yards. We only need to put our shots into a 24" (elk) or 16" (deer) kill area.
<br>Why would we be interested in shooting an 8" or 10" target at 1500 yards when the kill area of 24" and is the SAME for the shortrange shooter?
<br> Lets add some difficulty for the short range shooter here too since we are betting and see just how well he does. Isn't that fair???? .
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<br>I wouldn't take the bet of two mentioned scenerios if I were you.
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<br>Darryl Cassel

Why is it that offhand is the "typical" shot at 100 yards? I have killed many an animal in my day, but very few were fired at offhand. To imply that SRH must be shooting offhand is as wrong as many of the statements made about LRH.

DC
<br>The mention of the bet was not a target shooting contest. If you want to compare a benchrest gun shooting at 1.6in target at 100 yards to you shooting at 1500 yards, I'll take that bet any day.
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<br>The bet was for HUNTING, therefore the target is the same size regardless of distance, isn't it? A deer doesn't get bigger at 1500yds.

Hello KI
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<br>I was refering to If it flies on that one as he would be shooting his shortrange carry hunting rifle for this bet.
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<br>Agreed, a benchrest rifle will put it in the 1.6" target and I only mentioned it to make the bet more interesting.
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<br>I also mentioned that the shortrange or longrange hunter has the SAME kill zone at the two ranges.
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<br>Again, I added some spice to the bet for Mr. If.
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<br>I know there are many benchrest shooters that would take me up on that one and I think I did only mentioned that 1.6' deal to If it flies since he was so anxious to prove us wrong by his rediculous $1000.00 per shot wagering.
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<br>Darryl

DC
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<br>$1000 a shot seems a bit boring. What if it was strip shooting. You miss a shot, you lose (NOT LOOSE) a piece of clothing. First one to die of embarASSment loses. I'm sure there has to be some other better ideas than money.

I believe the bet involved a paper plate of the same size at both distances. If you're gonna use a 24 inch target, I think IIFID is entitled to a target of the same size. And I think that with same size targets, even if he is shooting offhand, that you will miss before he does. That is, him shooting at a paper plate 100 yards from an unsupported position, and you shooting at the same paper plate at 1500 yards with a spotter, a spotter round, and a target rifle chambered for whatever cartridge you wish. Seeing as I don't have lots of money, I ain't gonna make a wager on it, but whoever wishes can.
<br> If we like, we can make this a poatal match. That's it! Short range hunters get to shoot at a paper plate at 100 yards with whatever they like, offhand, for ten shots. LR hunters get the same size target at 1500 yards, and it's freestyle for them, still ten shots. LR hunters get a max of two spotter rounds.
<br> All people who get ten rounds out of ten would be eligible for a final shoot off I guess. Hmm.....
<br> Of course, any LR hunter who doesn't like those odds can shoot 100 yards offhand as well. This should be interesting....

Critters are of the same size vitals at 100yds,as they are at any other range. Choose an "average" vitals size,for a given class of Game and both men shoot for the vitals,via the two different trains of thought.
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<br>I am a realist and know an Elk is a much easier target at 100yds,than at 1500yds.
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<br>That being said,a first round hit in the vitals at 1500yds even with the aid of a spotter round,is pretty good shooting.
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<br>My point is,the guy Hunting Elk presented with a 100yd shot,isn't threading the poke into an Elk's 2.4" vitals. Vitals are vitals,regardless of distance. They should be equated in that manner.
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<br>Were you boys to get serious,I think a lifesize silhouette target of plywood or such,would be the best means of determining a meaningful hit. A 24" outline of the vitals could be marked in a slightly different color,so as to mark the scoring region,without actually aiding sight enhancement. I've never seen an Elk with a target on his side. So it is more than shooting at a given size target,it is doing so within the proper anatomical region,so as to replicate a typical kill shot. A hit in the outlined vitals,is a kill. One outside is simply a miss,but should be weighed heavily against total score in a string of shots,as it is a wounding shot. It should be scored as a penalty.
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<br>I think that best represents actual field conditions. I've made plywood lifesize silhouettes and it adds another dimension to practice.
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<br>Food for thought..................

Big Stick has it right: vital size is the same at any range. I said nothing about offhand in my original proposal and I figured both ranges would be fired from the same rest. I rarely shoot offhand at any range, though a bull elk I powder burned was offhand as I spun out of his way. The point of the test was to eliminate all variables except the range, since range is the real issue. That's why I had the same person doing the shooting. So the targets are the same size, the shooter uses the same rifle and scope and shoots from whatever position he chooses so long as it is the same for both ranges . What size target doesn't matter, whether a paper plate or a life sized cutout. I didn't envision any spotter rounds either, just one shot per target, but I guess I could give that much advantage to the long range target. And I'd even go for two shooters. As soon as we want a spotter round, MOA targets or any other edge, we are admitting the long range target is far more difficult to hit and that the odds of a miss are greater. Such a bet is more like investing than gambling, and the application to hunting shots is...

KI
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<br>That would be a bit cold for the loser. I agree
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<br>For the others who responded, I fully realize the vitals are the same size, regardless of the range.
<br>If you read what I said, it was directed to If it flies since he was the one talking his rediculous betting game. I was simply leveling out the playing field for this bet of his.
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<br>If he or any short range shooter wants to try to shoot their rifles against ours and shoot at 8 or 10" plates at 100 yards and ALSO at 1500 Yards, I will take any of you up on that one. You must shoot at 1500 Yards also along with the 100 yard target. We will too. Any takers NOW????
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<br>That's how rediculous this is. The short range shooter WILL lose this one for sure.
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<br>Just an explanation guys.
<br>Darryl
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I have no dog in this fight.
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<br>However,I don't recall a flood of "Short Range Guys" saying they can kill with 100% certainty at 1500yds. Actually,never heard a word muttered in that regard,or anything that could be remotely perceived in conjunction with that notion.
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<br>I'd simply like to witness results by anyone,at 1500yds,on a lifesized anatomically correct target regarding a first poke or a string of succesive shots in the vitals. That intrigues me. I'm neither rooting for,nor against,but am simply curious.
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<br>That was my take,on the crux of the debacle. I don't find any of that ridiculous,though much of it is very interesting....................

Darryl:
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<br>As usual, you LR boys seem to have major difficulty in reading and/or comprehending. As has been pointed out, Okanagan said nothing about off hand and he said, 8 or 10 inch plates. I chose 8 inchers. If you want to make it 10 or deer or elk size vitals, fine with me.
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<br>You are the one who mouthed off and said you would take the bet, and I quote you, " With my spotter and a spotter round fired first (as we always do while hunting) in front or behind the animal, I would take that bet. I would also only take the shot with the absence of wind gusts just like when we are hunting." So let's do it. Time limit of 10 minutes to shoot or lose after first shot fired. I can shoot first everytime or we can alternate. Now if you let your alligator mouth override your hummingbird you know what, that is fine and I understand.
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<br>Now, if you want to change it and make it a bit more challenging, why don't we make it an 8 inch plate at 100 yards and I will shoot offhand, you can have an 8 inch plate at 2000 and shoot any way you want. Same stakes. 3 minutes to get off your shot. I like to collect money in a hurry.
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Darryl, what is ridiculous about the bet proposed by If It Flies it Dies? You both shoot at the same size target, you at your preferred distance, he at his. That is parrallel to real hunting, he within his chosen limits, you within yours, which is what this is about. That's the real playing field, whether it is level or not. Your proposal to pit an off the shelf hunting rifle against a super sniper beast at 1500 yards stacks the deck as much as racing a VW bug against a Farrari. Yes, your LR rifle is more accurate at LR. No one has ever disputed that. I guess I'd just like a trace of acknowledgement that it is much harder to hit at long range than it is at short range, for any marksman, with any portable rifle. Your response indicates that you agree, since your counter proposals always give a huge advantage to the LR shooter.
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<br>Again, this proposed contest eliminates all the variables except range. Even you will hit more consistently at 100 yards than you will at 1500. That is the issue. I've no doubt that you are a superb long range shooter.
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<br>I re-read Big Stick's target proposal, a life size cut-out with vitals outlined, and I really like it. His scoring suggestion is even better, giving credit only for hits within the vitals, and penalizing hits outside that since they represent a wounded animal. Again, that's parrallel to real hunting.
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<br>Darryl, I'm not on any crusade to stop you from shooting a mile or two at a deer if you want. Your willingness to teach and share LR info with others is laudable. You have advanced to the world class leading edge of LR game shooting in your quest to eliminate all the "miss factors" ballistic and natural. But no one can control all of those factors all the time, and the longer the range the less control we have over animal movement, wind gusts, etc. The seeming refusal to face that kind of reality is what I think is behind my posts on this topic. May you never miss.

hmmm..
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<br>Ok I can see where this is headed....
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<br>Here are a few questions to ask.. lets make this sporting..
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<br>The average off the shelf hunting rifle is made to shoot hmmm 200 yards off hand .. I am asking .. right or wrong???
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<br>the guns LRH shoot are made to shoot 1000 yards right...
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<br>So to even the odds and make it fair....
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<br>Shouldn't it be 200 yards and 8" off hand and 1000 yards 8" with the LRH gun...
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<br>I think "most" educated and studied hunters can hit 8" all day long from 100 yards.. hell on a good day most of us can use a pellet gun and hit 8" at 100......
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<br>just somthing to think about...

<br>A pellet gun at 100yds??????
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<br>Let me get my hip waders on...it's getting deep.

David Tubb won the Silhouette Highpower National Championships,(in the offhand position,in case that event is unfamiliar to anyone)with an out of the box Rem700. The lad could likely hold his own at the 1000yd line too(grin).
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<br>So it is as much the Indian,as it is the arrow.
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<br>Rather than fuzzy math and the "my Dad is tougher than your Dad" mindset. I think it is more appropriate to keep at the matter at hand. Killing critters efficiently/effectively,regardless of range.
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<br>I would still very much enjoy a 1500yd exhibition. The talk of 2000yd kills intrigues me even more. Just what bearing that may have on a pellet rifle(at any range)is beyond me. If someone says they can reliably make kill shots,100% on Game (in the vitals)at 1500yds and further,I fail to see a connection to punching paper plates by anyone else at any other distance. As that is of zero bearing on anything,the former party stated.
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<br>They can either do it 100% of the time(every shot attempt)or not,at the distance they mentioned. Not much middle ground there,in my estimation.
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<br>I very much wish I had those skills..................
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IF
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<br>This is for If and nobody else.
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<br>Now we are changing the range from 1500 to 2000 yards?
<br>Look who's aligator mouth is running overtime on that statement. Your the one who also started a money shoot of $1000.00 per shot, were you not?
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<br>I simply tried to make this shoot off as equal as I could as per all around shooting especially when $1000.00 per shot is on the line.
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<br>To give you a crutch, how about if we put a 24" kill zone target at 100 yards and also at 1500 yards.
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<br>Knowing how easy it is to shoot 100 yards, I would expect you to shoot the same yardage as I do. I'll shoot 100 yards and 1500 Yards and YOU do the same. Hows that aligator mouth?
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<br>You have continued to downplay the LR hunters on this forum by trying to make a mockery out of shooting Longrange. Now you change things to suit you from 1500 to 2000 yards. You and I both know it's easier to hit an 8" plate at 100 yards then it is at 1500 yards. That don't take a rocket scientist to figure out.
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<br>I won't shoot against a 50 yard or 100 yard shooter and me at 1500 yards unless we BOTH are shooting at that range. If someone wants to shoot against me at 100, 300 , 1000 or 1500 or 2000 yards, now I will be most accomodating.
<br>Point is, "they" are going to do it to and this will be an equal match to see who can do what at all ranges.
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<br>It's true, at 100 yards an 8" plate should be hit more times then the 1500 yard same size 8" target. I never said it couldn't.
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<br>I did say FOR US a 24" kill zone target at 1500 yards is as easy to hit as your 8" or 10" plate is at 100 yards. Hell some hunters, I should say many hunters, couldn't hit an 8" target off hand at 100 yards while there are some who are excellent at 1000 yards off hand.
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<br>It's a pity you have never tried LR hunting or understand the concept. You seem to thrive on opposition towards it. That too is a pity but, to each his own.
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<br>So, at some point in your life if you feel "froggie" and want to shoot 100 yards AND 1500 yards against me, be my guest in Pennsylvania or Colorado when I go there elk hunting. Fair enough? Thats the fair way to approach this money contest you brought up.
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<br>Darryl
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Darryl (HUMMINGBIRD):
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<br>I remind you again, mighty hunter, that you are the one who said he would take the bet. All I did was make it into a real bet and you are attempting to obfuscate the fact that you are backpeddling faster than a unicyclist.
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<br>If the 2000 yards is all that is stopping you, I'll shoot it at 100, you shoot it at 1500 and let's get it on.
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<br>I have never made a mockery of LR hunting, you seem to do that quite well by yourself. I have never met anyone who's ethics changed at the will of the state Game and Fish Dept.
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<br>The bottom line is you said you would and could and now you won't and can't. Makes me wonder about some of your other numerous claims.
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IF (Alligator)
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<br>Rest assured, I would NEVER back peddle from "you" or anyone and that, you can take to the bank.
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<br>Here's a challenge for you.
<br>Anytime "you" want to shoot against me head to head and yardage to yardage, please let me know.
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<br>You are the one who brought up the $1000.00 per shot and your wise crack about bring lots of money. Don't try to wiggle out of something and blame it on me.
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<br>My credibility is such that I have witnesses and pictures to many of the long shots that were made and knowing your attitude on this forum, I expected you to make your sarcastic remarks. It wouldn't be the first time I've heard your mouth.
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<br>I really don't care what you think about any comments that were made by me. I don't tell lies about anything and anyone who knows me will attest to that.
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<br>So if you think I'm back peddling your wrong. When I shoot against someone for $1000.00 per shot, it will be even up and the yardage will be the same, the targets will be the same and it will be on the same day and at the Same time for both of us.--Are you "man enough" to try it or just mouthing again?
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<br>Your the one who said $1000.00 per shot and I'm the one who said even up at all yardages , between you and I.
<br> You shoot my game and I'll shoot yours. I'll try yours but, I'll bet , you won't try mine at 1500 yards.
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<br>100 yards AND 1500 yards --Both of us shooting the two yardages and you have a bet. Take it or leave it.
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<br>Later (I'm sure)
<br>Darryl
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Darryl...Go to your happy place...Little pink Foo Foo Bunny...hehehehehehe...If It Flies.Darryl is a Very respected member in the Long Range Hunting and Bench Rest community.It is Very clear to me you don't know what your going up against.How's this....???Darryl will shoot ten shot's at 100 yard's.We'll measure the group.You do the same....Then you each shoot ten shot's at 1500 yard's.Hell I'll even let you use MY GUN....$5000.00 for group size average.Sound fair?I don't think it can get any more fair....

Dear Humming:
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<br>Where do you keep that unicycle. Did you say you would take the bet or not?
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<br>Finally, I may not beat you, but I am more than willing to stand up and shoot offhand with you, 500yards or meters, 8 inch steel plate, silhouette rules, no slings, shooting coats or anything else. And, no spotters. $1000 a shot. Alternating shots, 3 minutes to shoot maximum or the shot is considered a miss. When do you want to do it? and, to be sure that we are really committed, let's escrow $10,000 to be sure that we are really serious. After either person loses the $10,000 he can press(double the bet for cash payments per shot), keep shooting for the same stakes, or quit when he wants to, which at that point becomes the losers option at any time. Let me know when.

Dear Darryl (Hummingbird):
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<br>Damn, it got quiet in here all of a sudden.
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<br>You wrote: "So if you think I'm back peddling your wrong. When I shoot against someone for $1000.00 per shot, it will be even up and the yardage will be the same, the targets will be the same and it will be on the same day and at the Same time for both of us.--Are you "man enough" to try it or just mouthing again?"
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<br>I believe that my post above met all of you conditions, so, are you a hummingbird or what? What can be fairer than 2 guys standing side by side shooting at the same target. Let's get it on.. Boyd, since you jumped in here, let's do a few side bets.
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<br>And, let me be the first to say, that there are many people who can outshoot me, but I am not sure that Hummingbird is one of them, using real shooting techniques, funny how few benchrests I find out in the woods. To repeat, he said, "it will be even up and the yardage will be the same, the targets will be the same and it will be on the same day and at the Same time for both of us.--Are you "man enough" to try it or just mouthing again?"
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<br>I guess I am man enough, what are you?
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If---I'm back and You can Hummingbird "this"
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<br>I see your changing the rules AGAIN. Last email it was 2000 yards for me now it's 500 for both of us---Make up your damn mind. You continue to let your mouth overload your rear end.
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<br>I believe you can't read or understand anything and just continue to try to stir the pot.
<br>I told you in the last email or two, 100 Yards and 1500 yards shot for shot, Take it or leave it. Can you understand That?
<br>I'll shoot your range and you shoot mine as mentioned . 100 yards and 1500 yards.
<br>Are you man enough or just mouthy again or do you want to change something in your next email like you have in the last two??
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<br>Don't forget who started this Alligator and hummingbird stuff either. I won't.
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<br>So since it seems you not "Man enough" to shoot 100 Yards "and" 1500 yards" shot for shot with me, I don't believe you or I have anything else to say, do we?
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<br>If you change your mind, I'll be in Colorado the third elk season and would be glad to meet "you".
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<br>Darryl Cassel
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<br>PS
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<br>It only got quite for a bit as I ran down to my daughters house for an hour or so. Couldn't wait to get back to you IF.
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<br>Let me add one more thing, I'm a benchrest shooter and a bipod shooter especially at the ranges I shoot and nothing was ever said to dispute that. I would shoot your style at 100 yards and you can shoot my style at 1500 Yards understand that?
<br>How I wish you were in Pennsylvania.
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HUMMINGBIRD:
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<br>And the caps are intended. That is a shout. Let me spell it out. Gimme an H, gimme a U, gimme an M, gimme another M, gimme an I, gimme an N, gimme a G, gimme a B, gimme an I, gimme an R, gimme a D. What does that spell?????? DARRYL
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<br>If anybody has any doubt, just read the above posts.
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<br>Finally, if the 'wish you were in Pennsylvania:" is some kind of veiled threat, well, try to be a man and spit it out, it ain't that far.
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<br>PS: I keep changing the rules, as you say, because you are a moving target, like a snake.
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If---- spit "This" out.
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<br>Your a real joke
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<br>If you think I'm not a man, you certainly have your head in your rear end.
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<br>I wish you were in PA. not as a threat but, so I could show you some 3000 yard shooting from my own property.. Boyd has been there too.
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<br>So out of all this, your new name is "This" and mine is Hummingbird.
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<br>Anyway take care but, your still a joke.
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<br>Like my attorney always said, never get in a pissing contest with a skunk. I really screwed up & didn't listen to him this time.
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<br>Darryl
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"Just curious: how about this for a test? If we had one excellent marksman, a long range man, shoot the same rifle at two targets, one at say 1500 yards, the other at 100 yards. The targets could be the typical 8 or 10 inch plate to represent vitals, or we could make it more realistic and mark out a deer vital area on a life sized target and cover it with real deer hair. The shooter could have a spotter by his side with bigeyes and any other equipment. I would be willing to bet even money shot for shot, that he will hit the closer target and miss the farther one, if I could find a taker to bet he will hit the 1500 target and miss the 100 yard one. The more shots fired the better. The only catch is that the shooter has to be neutral and do his best to hit each shot. "
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<br>This is the original post by Okanagan. I think both IIFID and Darryl should both shut up and put up. What's the use of this pissing contest anyways?
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"So if you think I'm back peddling your wrong. When I shoot against someone for $1000.00 per shot, it will be even up and the yardage will be the same, the targets will be the same and it will be on the same day and at the Same time for both of us.--Are you "man enough" to try it or just mouthing again?"
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<br>Here I am quoting Darryl, and IIFID has taken you up on your offer. Same range for both of you I do recall. It isn't the 1500 yards you are comfortable with, but I don't really think he would be that comfortable shooting at 500 yards offhand either.
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Me, I ain't in this, don't throw me in the crossfire. You two both seem to be getting on each other's nerves, I'm just trying to be rational here. I just would like for both of you to stop flaming each other, and if you wish to have a shooting match, go ahead and have it.

Big
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<br>That's MY point.
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<br>I'm not an off hand shooter and i explained my position on that.
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<br>I would shoot with If, at 100 yards and he can shoot with me at 1500 yards. Not a problem, I didn't think.
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<br>I wouldn't be comfortable with his style and he wouldn't be with mine. I think that's about as even as you can get. I don't think very many hunters carry and hold a 67 Lb rifle.
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<br>I do believe we beat this to death though.
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<br>He started the crap with the Alligator mouth and Humingbird comments. I didn't.
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<br>Later
<br>Darryl

HUMMINGBIRD:
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<br>I may be your joke, but, unlike you, I put my money where my mouth is. And we know where yours is and it is firmly glued to your anal orifice, near your wallet.
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<br>Geesh, I have to keep quoting your words, how distasteful, but here they are again, ""So if you think I'm back peddling your wrong. When I shoot against someone for $1000.00 per shot, it will be even up and the yardage will be the same, the targets will be the same and it will be on the same day and at the Same time for both of us.--Are you "man enough" to try it or just mouthing again?"
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<br>To repeat, I am man enough, but you aren't.
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<br>Now, there is no question that you are a more accomplished BR shooter and sniper of animals at extended ranges than I am, I freely admit that, but somehow I am not sure that being a good shot is all about bench technique. I offered a contest which met all of your requirements and you weaseled out, saying, "oh, shoot, I didn't mean that, we have to shoot off the bench at my distances" What a female orifice, and that means you. You pontificate to all that will listen about how great you and your Long Range practices are, how you will take a bet, and when you are called on it, run like a rabbit.
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<br>Like I said in one of my earlier posts, I don't have to know everything about a skunk to know that one stinks, and you, sir, stink.
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<br>And you take care too, but you still stink.
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100 yards offhand is still somewhat within your territory, so let's do that for both of you. As far as bench goes, let's go 600 yards for both of you, with the rifle of your choice. Darryl, you surely do have a gun that doesn't weigh more than ten pounds, don't you? Use it for the offhand stage. Shooting bench is also your cup of tea, so we'll go for a 600 yard bench match. Both of you are somewhat in the others realm. This is a fair match I would think. No real extreme bias, unless Darryl is a really awful offhand shot. If that's the case, ask IIFID if the offhand portion can be shot at 50 yards so you can still hit the target. As far as 600 yards not being far enough, I don't like extremem bias.
<br> Let's go 50 offhand and 600 off a bench, if both of you approve. You both will be in the other's territory, but not so far that you don't stand a chance in it.

If "This"
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<br>I see your still stirring the crap.
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<br>Your still a Joke and always will be to me.
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<br>So changing the rules again, thats par for you. Try and make it look like I am backing out which I'm not.
<br>When you decide to shoot at 100 yards and 1500 yards , shot for shot, I will be here waiting for your sorry self.
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<br>My attorney was certainly correct in your case.
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<br>Darryl

I have an Idea...Darryl can shoot a light gun at 100 yard's.If can too....Darryl can shoot his heavy gun at 1500.And I will provide the gun for IF.That's if you don't mind Darryl.????We'll give (If) a Drop chart and a wind chart.....The range will be 1500 yard's.Darryl,How many round's do you think it would take him to even get close.....Both of you shoot light gun's at 100 yard's.10 shot's each from a bench....At a thumb tack......10 thumb tack's at 1000 dollars each.Then you will both shoot heavy gun's at 1500.10 shot's at a 15 inch circle.The same 1000 dollars a shot would apply.I think I would even get in on that one...How about it DC?....Split the money with you 50-50.(IF) own's a ranch in Texas....I don't think he would miss 20 grand or so...........:)

HUMMINGBIRD:
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<br>I'm ready, anytime for the bet that YOU said YOU would take, but YOU aren't, are YOU? I shoot at 100 and you shoot at 1500, remember that? You wussed out on that, and then you wussed out on a straight up, off hand contest, seems like the only thing you want to do is shoot in your comfort zone with all the edge. Which is NOT what you said in YOUR response to Okanagan.
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<br>In other words, to sum it up, you lie like a cheap rug.
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<br>And your attorney undoubtedly earns his fees.

This still seems pretty biased. Bench rest at 100 yards? Darryl, IIFID, I think you should shoot offhand at 50 yards against one another, and off a bench rest at 600 yards. Both of you would have a chance to be in your element, and neither one would have to get out of it too far. You should determine how the money goes amongst yourselves, but that is the fairest I can come up with.

Big Hunter...I'd like to get in on that one too.....

Darryl.
<br>I think you have just met your match, I know IIFID and he isn't kidding! He has the loot and the skill, I would be very careful what I wrote from this point on. All the propraganda won't help on the field.
<br>Rick created this board for you and you continue to draw controversy, that tells most of us something. As JJ says about long range shooting, "there are a thousand things to go wrong and only one to go right".
<br>You are correct, this is the Long Range Hunting board and for people interested in what you are selling, the ones that don't believe in shooting live targets at extended ranges should depart to their own boards or campfire and let this place run it's course.
<br>When and if you do shoot a match for money, several of us would like to attend. Personally I would like to see some of your shots in the Colorado mountains with all the cross winds and gusts. Been hunting up there since 51 and know the country. -- no

Well I have stayed out of all this, but it has made for some interesting reading. I just hope that somehow we can eventually put it to rest and get on with what this forum should be about. Hope you all can come up with some solution that is amenable to all.

LOL!!! Good one Boyd!! That is the fairest way I know of to go about it though. Neither guy is rediculously far out of his element. I think IIFID would win the 50 yard offhand portion, and Darryl would probably win the 600 yard bench rest portion. I wouldn't know though. Hey, would IIFID and Darryl please tell me what they think of this idea for a match? Is this proposal acceptal to both of you? I would love to see the results of this.

Nice try, Boyd, but simply more smoke to cover you buddy. I don't blame you, that is what friends are for.
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<br>I don't know if you can be unbiased, but the problem with this and other LR threads is that you guys, lead by Hummingbird, come across as somehow believeing that what you do is superior and are patronizing to those of us who disagree with you on philosophical grounds. You can bet on one thing, which is more that Hummingbird will do, and that is that if your idea of "sport" game sniping continues to spread, as you predict, then it will cause a backlash among hunters, much less the rest of the public, and that will lead to restrictions that will hurt us all.
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<br>The funny part about it is, while I don't believe that LRH is fair chase, I support your right to do it, as long as it is legal. But when someone makes false statements, such as "legal is ethical, period" and then agrees to take a bet and suddenly decides he doesn't like the terms, I question his word. Maybe you should too. Regardless of how many animals he has sniped or how many benchrest shots he has shot.
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<br>And finally, I read, time after time, where these are LR threads, and we should all bow to the knowledge of the participants. Well, let me clue you in, unlike the censored sight that LR hunters call home, 24hr has people that feel free to give an uncensored opinion, and if you can't live with that, tough. If you check my post, I have never disputed one claim that you or Hummingbird or any other LRH has made, I have only discussed ethical considerations or responded to statements that were made, such as the bet. You and others may not like that, but it is still a free country, last time I checked.
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<br>And, I can guarantee you one thing, unlike Hummingbird, when I say I'll take a bet, it is took Something about I value my word. Instead, upon reflection, he wants all the best of it, after he decides that he didn't really mean what he said the first time or however many times it was, I was willing to chance that I might beat him head up, to use his phrasing, like a man. He isn't.

IFID,
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<br>See the problem is.. and lets be honest here. Shooting long distances is hard. Agreed? Then you here of the LRH guys that are killing way out to 2000 yards. Then the average hunter says " holy cow " how can they do that.. no way it is possible.. Then human instinct takes over and says" i don't know anything about that" add a pinch of some ego.. and the average guy,... because he is out of his element becomes defensive and fear enters ..so to counter his fear and the unknown he uses negative comments and tries to demoralize the LRH. This is in an attempt to bring this person who can accomplish this unbelievable feat to this average hunters level. This happens because as humans we do not want to feel unequal or less than the next guy.
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<br>Now I am not saying this about everyone on this forum BUT.. this is the typical response in all the forums that LRH enter in to. Honestly.. if everyone can step back and look how this LRH forum evolved on this site.. this is almost EXACTLY how it happened. Although I am not sure alot of the doubters here are man enough to admit to it.. after all their ego would take a dent or two...
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<br>IFID.. your name say alot about you ( if it flies it dies ) you want the feeling of power and control the ability to kill at will. This is exactly why you feel talked down to and why you feel LRH's act superior. You fit the mold of a Texan, lotsa money and a loud mouth. Thats fine, I know alot about Texans I am partners with one in the hunting operation. He'll be the first to admit ( especially the ranchers ) ( he used to be one ) they talk alot cause they have the money to back it...thats OK though.
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<br>I do not believer the LRH thread was started so that every hunter here could come here to challenge the ethics or morality of the LRH.. For the most part that is what has occured. NOT to learn somthing about what LRH's do.. or how it is done or how a person can become a more efficient or accurate shooter. We never intended for anyone to bow to us THAT IS ABSOLUTY REDICULUS.. Some of the LRH's here ( including me ) offered to have you as guests in our home so you can see how things are done.. HOW IS THAT BOWING to us... comon!!!
<br>IFID, your right, this is a free country.. You opinions are welcomed. But in all honesty do you think this forum ( LRH )was created so you could come here to voice your negitiveness to LRH. I expected some of it. But you, RG, and some others are begining to take it to another level. Remember the owner of the site probobly thought that there was some interest in this type of hunting. Why not open a forum to discuss it.
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<br>The censored site you speak of is not censored.. To you maybe becaue all you care about is YOUR opposition to LRH. You do not wish to enter the site to discuss the "how to" or the aspects of building a LRH rifle or ballistics at extended ranges.. you just want to spout off.. and that IS NOT welcomed there....
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<br>You offered a bet that seem a little one sided.. when things got even you changed your specifics of the bet.
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<br>You are typical.. and thats fine.. I can accept it. I can even have a civil discussion with you. But can you accept me and have a civil discussion with me..
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<br>See this LRH is so taboo or outside the box.. that most, because they do not understand it, or think they may not be able to do it.. becaome afraid of it..... thats when all the negativity starts....
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<br>It is a shame this happend. Darryl has forgotten more knowledge about this sport than I will probobly ever learn. You of all people living in texas could have probobly used some of the knowledge. You would not know that. You never wanted to give it a chance. In my opinion YOUR ego got in the way....
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<br>To all the other non-believers or guys that that really don't want to know anything about this than to beat it down. Thats not why this is here. I said it before and I will say it again. I came to share. I will argue, I will defend, but only when disrespected or backed into a corner... It is definitly a shame seeing some of the opposition and negitive attitudes towards LRH here.
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<br>I am fortunate enough to be in the position and have a place, that friends I make though this common interest can be ( if they desire ) afforded, and offered, a means to really try this sport in an area where it is possible. I open my doors to anyone who wants to learn.
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<br>I thought this was the place I could have made some new friends...
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Hello---To the original poster who brought up the size targets at 100 and 1500 yards.
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<br>As origanlly posted by you, I would take the bet and say that "as written", without any scenario changes as "If" and I have been bouncing around, the 10" plate would be hit more times (certainly) at 100 yards using the "SAME" (as at 1500 yards) rifle then the 1500 yard same size target. Now as you mentioned again, if the target was a kill zone target at 1500 yards the odds are much better for the 1500 yard shot but, still not as good as the 100 yard shot using the "same" rifle.
<br>The "SAME" rifle at 100 yards and 1500 yards is the catch here. I'm all for that and anyone wanting to bet or shoot as origanally posted, I'm for. You said nothing about, off hand, prone, bipods or benchrest style. I would presume that means take your pick of styles.
<br>I'm an extreme lR shooter/hunter and you all should know which way I will be shooting my 67 Lb rifle.
<br>Yes again, to "this" bet and if "IF" wants to try that, I would be all for it as "originally posted".
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<br>I mentioned shot for shot , side by side, same day and time and same size target. The scenerios got changed by he and I along the way, (in these many posts) for both of us to make a point. I however, never said anything about which style of shooting one was to take.
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<br>I suggest anyone forgetting how this was originally written, to go back and read it again.
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<br>Darryl

Bubble, bubble, toil and trouble.... This is a very entertaining thread. I have seen your video. Yes you folks are good at what you do. I saw a deer shot in the head at 400yds. The way I see it people that take head shots wheather they make them or not, at 400 yds can't be worried about wounding the animal. I don't care how you hunt, but when you took that head shot you lost a great deal of credibility. I don't take head shots at 100 yds and I think I can make them if everything goes according to plan. "But, like to bumper sticker says "$hit Happens".

As I say, I have stayed out of this but will say that when you figure how many people are actually on this forum, I am sure that you must realise that this is only a small portion of the members you are dealing with. So there are some like myself that just go around to glean what they can from the different forums and keep their opinions to themselves for the most part while learning what they feel is relevant to them. It has been interesting to say the least, as for myself it would be interesting to try long range shooting but only at targets for now, I have shot at the most 500 Yards only at targets and only to work on making my reloads the best they can be. I hope you will all continue to add to this forum and eventually the dust will settle.

Partsman.....Just so you know the LRH's did'nt start the dust kicking.But people who call something they can't do,or don't understand unethical or unsportsman like.Is just plain wrong.................Let's all have an open mind about this....

Partsman
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<br> This might seem like a significant scuffle but it's usually how things start off when the LRH guy show up or are invited to a new place.
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<br> It's rather unfortunate that this is the initial norm but it's just the normal turn of events. I don't know the real reason behind it but I know it happens with regularity.
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<br> Each of us Long Range Hunters has at one time or another had his turn in the barrel and right now it appears to be a one-on-one scuffle over an innocent proposition offered by a poster. Cool heads will return and things will lighten up, wounds will heal (but may leave scars) and the actual facts will be lost with time like all the previous versions of this inital meeting.
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<br> These posts remind me a bit of a line in 'Quigley Down Under':
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<br>Quigley: �I wish people'd quit hittin' me on the head.�
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<br>Cora: �Don't worry. On a new job, it's quite common for things not to go well at first.�
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<br> So just sit back and wait, once the dust clears we'll be able to see whats being offered a lot better.
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