Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Long Range Hunting Bullets for Long Range Hunting

I am not starting this post so as to have a repeat of what has happened at other sites and I don't mean this as a flame. I am new to rifles, but not hunting (lived in IN where only shotguns are allowed for big game) and am curious as to how long range hunting is done. Now that I've posted my disclaimer I'll get to my question.
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<br>I am curious as to your selection of bullets for long range hunting. Obviously you guys have had success using Matchkings, but was wondering why? I'm not gonna get into the, "they are not designed for hunting" debate because from your experiences they work. However, I find it hard to believe that they are the best there for this application. Money is not object when setting up the gun and I'm sure someone could custom make bullets that fly as well or better with even a better design for hunting. Looking at the Cabela's Shooting Catalog I noticed the Lost River bullets and they 'seem' better, but are they just more expensive. I'd appreciate any and all opinions.

The reason we or should I say most Long Range hunter's use MatchKing's is that there is'nt another bullet for caliber that is as accurate or has a higher B.C than the match king.Yes the Lost River Bullet's look very good on paper.And in time they may prove themselve's.But for now the MatchKing is still the KING for Long Range work.If you really want to know how it is done.Go to www.longrangehunting.com and read some of the post's there.There is some of the best LRH's in the country on that forum....

It is true that Matchkings we developed for target work. However, thru countless hours of research it led several people to actually cut in half just about every bullet used for hunting. The Matchking and suposed target bullet actually has thicker walls and is designed better than the beloved hunting bullets. To date all animals that were taken with the matchings were killed quickly and the bullet perfrmed as any intended huntng bullet.
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<br>We kinda feel if you can reliably use a bullet designed for accuracy work as a hunting bullet you have the best of both worlds.

Thanks all for the civil replies, that is the kind of infor I was looking for. Boyd, thanks for the tip on the website! I gotta get to the range more often, 100yds still looks like a long way!!!!:)

Boyd, thanks for the link,thats the site I was refering to in the other thread, somehow forgot to bookmark it. Was wondering,how do you think the Matchkings would perform at closer ranges, ie. higher velocities. They are built somewhat along the general structure of a BT or Scirrocco are'nt they, minus the tip? I'm mainly wondering about fragmentation at higher velocities. Nosler in their manuals warn you not to use the BTs when bullet impact velocity will be in excess of 3100fps, and I think theres probably a lot of hunters not knowing that, have had bad experiences with them. Just a guess but from reading posts about them you either love em or you hate em.With the 7mm RUM I'd be leaning towards the 150 gr matchkings. Just got some of the 150 gr Sciroccos loaded,have'nt got to try them yet. I could'nt agree with you more on the practice principle. Told a guy at work just the other day, on shooting at any yardage, that you've just got to practice till you you THINK you can do it and then go back and practice some more, till you KNOW you can. Jeff

JScottRupp,
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<br>The matchking I used at @70 yards did not explode or "pencil" thru. The wound channel looked like any other wound channel. I was using the 175 gr SMK fired from a 308 on a PA whitetail. In cutting in half the nosler and comparing them to the matchking the noslers have a much thinner wall than the matchking.
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<br>You have the right idea on the practice thing. Even when you know you can do what you intend, you need to keep on practicing to keep you at that level!!!
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<br>Unfortunatly we have had subzero temps as of late and I havn't been able to get out and squeeze the trigger.... needless to say the trigger finger is gettin' itchy

JScott.I shot a cull doe with a 220 MK out of my 300 Ultra mag at 31 yard's.My velocity was at 3058fps.The bullet broke one rib going in and broke three going out.The exit hole was somewhere between a tennis ball and a softball..Darry Cassel on this forum use them in his carry gun's.....He might be able to help you out more.I would however try the 168's out of your RUM....That 7 Rum is ONE BAD S.O.B.....I have an 7 stw that I'm thinking about having rechambered to 7 RUM....Darryl are you out there??????

JScott
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<br>The Match Kings ALL work well with about any caliber I have used them on game with.
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<br>Ihave used the 140, 142 and 155gr in my 6.5/300 Weatherbys, the 135gr in my 270, the 168 gr in my 7mm Mags and 7/300 Weatherbys, 200, 220 in a slew of 30 Cals and now I'm using the 300 Gr 338 and it is for a VERY long range rifle. Anytime I used them in any carry rifle such as my 280 (168 Gr) or my 270 (135 gr), They have expanded perfectly and there is NO fragmentation at all.
<br>I don't want a bullet that "Blows up" on contact.
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<br>I think you would like the MKs especially the 168 gr in the 7RUM if you decide to Longrange deer or elk hunt with that rifle. It has a MUCH better BC then the 150 gr.
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<br>Darryl

Gentlemen. I discussed your game bullet choices with the Tech Reps at Sierra sometime back. They, the makers, don't recommens them for big game, at all.
<br> What I was told is to get true expansion, the impact velocity has to be on the order of 2300-2400 fps. Anything slower, and expansion is erratic, and the bullet has a tendency to tip over.
<br> Jacket thickness is only one quality. Core composition is another, as well as jacket hardness, etc.
<br> Shooting a deer at close range with a magnum proves nothing. Those bullets have been used for years by many. Sometimes they work, sometimes they don't. If you want to put up with their lack of consistancy-by using an extra powerfull magnum-that's your call. But I submit there are many far better designs availiable for game shooting. I mean, do you really need the so called accuracy edge under 500 yds ? I doubt it.
<br> I know, quite well, a couple of guys that use 7mm-300 Wbys to shoot deer at ranges up to 800 yds. They use the Nosler Partition. E
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Darryl, This ones for you to answer...
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<br>BTW he visited them at Sierra...

Hello
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<br>For what it's worth. Since this is a Longrange thread and we want to answer as best we can all questions as to what we have found.
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<br>It has been mentioned, the most accurate bullet for the LONGRANG hunter to date and at a very good price, is the Sierra MK. We must include the Jenson bullets here also.
<br>The jackets on the MKs are thicker then some of the so called hunting bullets.
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<br>At excess range any other bullet including the Noslers will simply NOT shoot as flat AND accurate as the MK because of the lower bullet BC of the hunting style bullets. Your buddy may do just fine at 500 yards but, when he reaches on out, he will see a complete difference in bullet flight between the MK and the Partition EVEN AT THE SAME SPEED.
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<br>At close range, with the 280 or 270, I have never had a problem using the MK.
<br> At extreme longrange out to 2100 yards on elk the same results. Small entrance hole and large exit holes from the size of a grapfruit to that of a vollyball.
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<br>Have only recovered 2 Mks from elk (the rest penitrated all the way through) that were on the far side of the animal and just under the skin. They were mushroomed as perfect as any so called hunting bullet you have ever seen.
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<br>I have a VERY good friend that is a ballistics tech at Sierra (Rich Markholz) and he knows exactly what we do with the Sierra MK. He gave My wife and I a very nice tour of the plant several years ago. The reason they say their MKs are not reccommended for game is;
<br>1. They don't want the average hunter without the proper equipment, barrel twists and experiance to use them and possibly have negative results. We try for bullet placement into the vital area (always and at any range) and never shoot at a running animal as I have seen many short range hunters do. This is how bullets get a bad rap.
<br>2. They probably don't want to loose their hunting line of bullets when people find out how good the MK really works. (My opinion).
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<br>Have used them for many years in several calibers at short and long range and they have not failed me or ANY of my short or longrange friends that have used them .
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<br>If you haven't tried them, you would not realize or know how good they really perform and to make a comparison, I have.
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<br>As a matter of fact, I have just been sent Barnes bullets for testing and they are like any other so called hunting bullets as per the lower BC. Testing is not complete yet.
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<br>Later
<br>Darryl Cassel

I have you ever done some 'controlled' penetration tests to compare them to other bullets? I would very interested in hearing of the findings if you have.

Only actual field testing for over 40 years now. I believe there was another fellow or two on another site that did do some testing and found that the MK did quite well when compared to many of the hunting bullets in penitration tests. I don't remember their names.
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<br>The penitration, killing ability, top accuray level and High BC is the bullet my LR friends and I have counted on in many different calibers and yardages over the years.
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<br>Would we change now, yes, if we could find an even BETTER bullet to use other then the MK.
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<br>It has worked for us in the Longrange and shortrange fields and mountains and the actual testing has been done and proved , time and time again.
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<br>Matchkings work my friend.
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<br>Darryl Cassel
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Darryl, we have hunting bullets that open well at impact velocities as low as 1600 fps. We have bullets that retain 90% of their intial weight. Now, your not trying to tell me that the MatchKings will do that are you ?
<br> They aren't even close.
<br> Don't get me wrong. I applaud your restraint. You shoot only when conditions, including the shot angle, are ideal. You take only nice clear shots at the chest area of your critters. You use catriages with lots of power, etc. You practice alot. Great.
<br> The MatchKings are the best ? Why ? Because they are more accurate than any others ? I've got a couple of rifles that put Barnes X's consistantly into less than .5 MOA. Not even the military snipers need more than that.
<br> Ballistic coeffiecents of the MatchKings are higher ? So what ? They lay into the wind a little better. Big deal. What is a couple of inches at 500-600 yds. ? Less than one MOA on the windage adjustment of your scope.
<br> The remaining velocity is a little higher ? Again, so what ? If the bullet won't open, or retain it's weight properly, it's impact velocity is pointless.
<br> Run over to JJ post on the African board, and look at his recovered bullets. Your MatchKings can't do anything like that.
<br> As a rule, all but the bonded design boat tail bullets loose their cores very easily. BTW, what is your take on the Swift Scirocco ? Now, your not going to tell me their too expensive are you ? I thought you guys spend something like $12,000 on your equipment. What is a few more bucks on some first class game bullets ?
<br> All of them deflect very readily when they hit brush. In deflection tests done with Federal Throphy Bonded ammo, it was found that, when shooting through glass, that load didn't change course, unlike their MatchKing loaded match ammo did. This is worth something to a hunter.
<br> The other is the penetration needs. My experience with older game animals is that it foolish to limit yourself to loads that have a narrow range of applications. We have ammo that will penetrate quite well at less than ideal angles. And, sometimes, that the best one can hope for in the field.
<br> This is not theory. I've got over 40 years, and over a 100 critters, of experience too. You, and your friends, do it right. I've got no problem with your long range tactics. But I do take exception to your "MatchKings are the best" opinion.
<br> Get a copy of Mike Lau's book,"The Military and Police Sniper." Turn to page 102. There is a picture of a buck killed with a couple of MatchKings. And a warning not to use them. From the good folks at Sierra. And from the guy that killed this buck. E
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Ric,
<br>Our stuff is in the mail. Gotta go load some more 300gr
<br>Matchkings for them SLO-GOATS !

Eremicus,
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<br>You bring up some valid points. I have a few questions.
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<br>You say that you shoot .5 MOA that's great shooting but.. how far will your rifle hold .5 MOA I highly doubt that the flat base bullet will hold .5 MOA out to 1500 yards, I'm not sure if it will hold .5 MOA to 1000 yards.
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<br>The BC and ability to lay into the wind are a BIG deal. The impact velocities are higher because of that. Who said these bullets don't open up or retain weight?
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<br>Matchkings don't have to perform like your bullets. All they have to do is perform in such a way that they quickly and efficiently kill game without wounding. Trouble is they DO just that! As quickly and efficiently as your bulets.
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<br>The deflection testing your talking about. I hope you don't make it a habit to shoot into brush or trees. What angle was the glass at during those test. When was the last time you shot through glass to kill an animal?
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<br>You bring up a point about spending a few more bucks for a big game bullet, valid but shoot a couple 1000 rounds a year. If they work why change?
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<br>I havn't read Mike Lau's book yet. He is very respected in the sniper world, but I am not sure how many animals he has shot with a matchking.
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Hello
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<br>Sorry for the delay in responding, was at the Eye Doctor.
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<br>First to answer your question a bit further concerning Match Kings.
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<br>I'm not trying to tell YOU anything other then how well the MK works on game from actual field testing and kills for many years.
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<br>As far as .5 MOA, please take that to 1000 yards and beyond and tell me that the Barnes , Nosler or any other bullet besides maybe the Jenkens, will be as accurate, retain the energy, and shoot as flat as the Sierra Match King in the SAME weight and Caliber. It WON"T happen as I have tried them.
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<br>If you use something else and it works for you, by all means continue to do so. Don't ever switch if your happy with what you shoot and believe in. I'm only telling you or anyone on this LONGRANGE forum fact concerning our experiance with the MK.
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<br>The bullet cost is not the factor at all either.
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<br>500 or 600 yards is NOT a Longrange shot for us and the Sierra Match Kings have always provided us with extremely fast kills at ranges two and three times that far and further.
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<br>If you or anyone have not tried them, you can't possibly know what they will do at yardages beyond 600 to 1600 yards for instance. Yes, with our equipment we can shoot that far VERY accuratly and that's exactly why we use the MK.
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<br>We have tried the Barnes, Noslers, Speer and Hornady and found they didn't shoot as flat, were not as accurate and did not retain the energy that we saw when hits were made with the Sierra MK.
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<br>Regardless if a company makes a statement as to their thoughts on the product and possibly didn't try them out themselves on live game, they too would not know how they react on animals.
<br>That would be like an automobile company stating their cars will go 120 Miles per hour but, THEY DON'T RECOMMEND you doing that.
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<br>We have used the MKs, and we know what they do. The good folks at Sierra know what we do with their bullets as, I report to them every year after our longrange hunts. The reason I do that is to let them know that their MK bullets are VERY good LR killers.
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<br>They simply don't want them being used by those who don't place their shots and are the 3 day a year hunter and don't have the correct equipment toi do what we do. I can't blame them for that.
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<br>As I stated above, if you or anyone else don't want to try them, please don't. We are only stating how good they have been for "us" and we shoot VERY LONGRANGE with them, not just 500 or 600 yards.
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<br>I said in the other post, I have used them in carry guns of the 270 and 280 calibers and they performed perfectly at close range too, you may have missed that.
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<br>I don't know of ONE LR hunter in the Northern Counties of PA and those I know that hunt the western States every year that don't use MKs for hunting. I'm sure there might be some but, I don't know of any.
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<br>Darryl
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Darryl, I'm not arguing with you, but it did raise a question in my mind. Here's a quote from your above post.
<br>"They simply don't want them being used by those who don't place their shots and are the 3 day a year hunter and don't have the correct equipment toi do what we do. I can't blame them for that."
<br>With that train of thought then why in the world does Nosler promote Ballistic Tips as good big game hunting bullets? From my own field experience they are NOT a good big game bullet. Guess Nosler doesn't have the same level of conscience as Sierra.
<br>More back on topic have you guys experimented with Hornady's SST or the Scirocco's?
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Hello Big Sky
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<br>Have not tried the Scirrocos.
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<br>Reason being, the Sierra MK has done so well after the other bullet lines we did test that, most all of the LR crowd just stayed with the MK.
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<br>The Comment concerning the placement of the bullet and the 3 day a year hunter was repeated to me and was also my own personall thoughts to.
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<br>Those who have never used them (MK) would not believe how well they do.
<br>We could argue about Match Kings forever but, the fact remains they are an extremely excellent bullet for hunting deer and elk size animals at about any range I have ever used them. You have to see the actual kill to believe it.
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<br>Darryl
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Darryl, I remember an add that Sierra ran once, way back in the 60's. It seems that 5 hunters from the east traveled west to hunt deer and elk. They all used 30'06 rifles, and the 168 gr. MK. They did well, and told Sierra about it. Sierra, to promote their fine products, published the letter, in the form of an add, in the American Rifleman.
<br> After that, the story goes, they got quite a bit of negative feed back. From dissatisfied user of that bullet. They then started making the 165gr. GameKing HP, and recommending it, not the 168 gr. MatchKing as a game bullet.
<br> You see Darryl, they do know something about making bullets. They get lots of feedback, not only from guys like you and yours, but many other users as well.
<br> The idea that they don't want everybody to know what a fine game bullet the MatchKing is, is pure non sense. They are in the bussiness of making, and selling, bullets. If that bullet was any where near as reliable a game bullet, as their other products, they would push it. Or, at least, not recommend against using it as a game bullet. It does feature fine accuracy, and BC. I use their ordinary hunting bullets as practice bullets because they shoot extremely well.
<br> But to say the MatchKing is a great hunting bullet, at ordinary game ranges is just not what many have discovered the hard way. And Sierra is the first one to say so.
<br> Again, we aren't talking about the specialized long range shooting you guys do so well at. You shoot under very strict rules, and really know your loads. E
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