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Arns9 Offline OP
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A friend is new to shooting and reloading, but has a wonderfully accurate M700 .30-06. He's shooting 150 BTs with 61 grains of H4350. He's shot 13 three shot groups that have averaged an amazing .610". However, the chrony says he's getting 3110 fps (and the velocity has been very consistent).

Is this load safe? I'm guessing it's around 63 K psi, but that's only a guess. Thanks for your input.


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Looks like Hodgdon says 62 grains is max so I'd say rock on. I am running 58 with 180s, but may try 150s this fall if daughter gets an elk tag.

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Thats pretty interesting velocity. Sounds like ya got this one tied down. If it ain't broke--don't fix it!


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Drop down to the speed of 3110 on this chart and quick load thinks your guess of about 63k is spot on:

HTML
 Cartridge          : .30-06 Spring.  (CIP)
Bullet             : .308, 150, Nosler BalTip 30150
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.340 inch or 84.84 mm
Barrel Length      : 24.0 inch or 609.6 mm
Powder             : Hodgdon H4350

Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 1.0% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step    Fill. Charge   Vel.  Energy   Pmax   Pmuz  Prop.Burnt B_Time
 %       %    Grains   fps   ft.lbs    psi    psi      %        ms

-10.0   99    54.90   2824    2655   45576   9072     94.8    1.200
-09.0  100    55.51   2857    2719   47233   9175     95.3    1.181
-08.0  101    56.12   2890    2783   48961   9275     95.8    1.162
-07.0  103    56.73   2924    2847   50757   9370     96.2    1.143  ! Near Maximum !
-06.0  104    57.34   2957    2913   52628   9462     96.7    1.124  ! Near Maximum !
-05.0  105    57.95   2991    2979   54576   9549     97.1    1.106  ! Near Maximum !
-04.0  106    58.56   3024    3046   56605   9631     97.5    1.089  ! Near Maximum !
-03.0  107    59.17   3058    3114   58725   9710     97.9    1.071  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
-02.0  108    59.78   3091    3183   60933   9783     98.2    1.054  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
-01.0  109    60.39   3125    3252   63238   9851     98.5    1.037  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+00.0  110    61.00   3158    3322   65643   9915     98.8    1.020  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+01.0  111    61.61   3192    3393   68156   9973     99.0    1.004  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+02.0  112    62.22   3225    3464   70783  10026     99.3    0.988  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+03.0  114    62.83   3258    3536   73530  10073     99.5    0.972  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+04.0  115    63.44   3292    3609   76403  10115     99.6    0.957  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+05.0  116    64.05   3325    3682   79414  10150     99.8    0.941  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

Results caused by � 10% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge
Data for burning rate increased by 10% relative to nominal value:
+Ba    110    61.00   3304    3635   79534   9592    100.0    0.946  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Data for burning rate decreased by 10% relative to nominal value:
-Ba    110    61.00   2955    2909   53440   9676     92.9    1.117  ! Near Maximum !

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Arns9 Offline OP
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Thanks for going to the trouble, Kracky. I guess his load is a keeper!


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Originally Posted by kraky111
Drop down to the speed of 3110 on this chart and quick load thinks your guess of about 63k is spot on:

HTML
 Cartridge          : .30-06 Spring.  (CIP)
Bullet             : .308, 150, Nosler BalTip 30150
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.340 inch or 84.84 mm
Barrel Length      : 24.0 inch or 609.6 mm
Powder             : Hodgdon H4350

Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 1.0% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step    Fill. Charge   Vel.  Energy   Pmax   Pmuz  Prop.Burnt B_Time
 %       %    Grains   fps   ft.lbs    psi    psi      %        ms

-10.0   99    54.90   2824    2655   45576   9072     94.8    1.200
-09.0  100    55.51   2857    2719   47233   9175     95.3    1.181
-08.0  101    56.12   2890    2783   48961   9275     95.8    1.162
-07.0  103    56.73   2924    2847   50757   9370     96.2    1.143  ! Near Maximum !
-06.0  104    57.34   2957    2913   52628   9462     96.7    1.124  ! Near Maximum !
-05.0  105    57.95   2991    2979   54576   9549     97.1    1.106  ! Near Maximum !
-04.0  106    58.56   3024    3046   56605   9631     97.5    1.089  ! Near Maximum !
-03.0  107    59.17   3058    3114   58725   9710     97.9    1.071  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
-02.0  108    59.78   3091    3183   60933   9783     98.2    1.054  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
-01.0  109    60.39   3125    3252   63238   9851     98.5    1.037  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+00.0  110    61.00   3158    3322   65643   9915     98.8    1.020  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+01.0  111    61.61   3192    3393   68156   9973     99.0    1.004  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+02.0  112    62.22   3225    3464   70783  10026     99.3    0.988  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+03.0  114    62.83   3258    3536   73530  10073     99.5    0.972  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+04.0  115    63.44   3292    3609   76403  10115     99.6    0.957  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+05.0  116    64.05   3325    3682   79414  10150     99.8    0.941  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

Results caused by � 10% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge
Data for burning rate increased by 10% relative to nominal value:
+Ba    110    61.00   3304    3635   79534   9592    100.0    0.946  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Data for burning rate decreased by 10% relative to nominal value:
-Ba    110    61.00   2955    2909   53440   9676     92.9    1.117  ! Near Maximum !



Originally Posted by Arns9


Is this load safe? I'm guessing it's around 63 K psi, but that's only a guess. Thanks for your input.



Am I missing something?



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The real questions to be answered are which and how many of the classic signs of excessive pressure are present, like case stretch, flattening of primers, holes in primers, hard extraction, leakage around the circumference of primers, and so on.


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YES, there are no guarantees he's runnning 63k pressure. Smarter people than me have documented not seeing any pressure signs with certain lots of brass all the way to 70k pressure. It would be my experience that anytime you flirt with 3100 with a 150 in a '06 you are near max. I suppose going even 5-6 loadings with pockets still nice and snug wouldn't even be a "for sure we're safe" but if I had that as a final gauge I'd be ok with it.

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Originally Posted by kraky111
YES, there are no guarantees he's runnning 63k pressure. Smarter people than me have documented not seeing any pressure signs with certain lots of brass all the way to 70k pressure. It would be my experience that anytime you flirt with 3100 with a 150 in a '06 you are near max. I suppose going even 5-6 loadings with pockets still nice and snug wouldn't even be a "for sure we're safe" but if I had that as a final gauge I'd be ok with it.



Ok I understand now...


It is a "Hot" load but how hot is up to the user...

But it may not be "Crazy" hot.


For me it would be too hot for sure...


Then agin I would just get a 300WM


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I'd put a star by that load in the notes and rock on.

I was once told by a guy that made CF pressure testing equip that modern CFs would handle far more pressure than a brass case could even begin to contain. He also commented that you have to consider the huge variables and safety factors that SAAMI has to take into acct. He said watching common pressure signs and the chrono was good logic for handloaders to stay safe. Seemed like a pretty smart fella. Truth to his comments? IDK, but I feel he was probably more in the know than most of us gun tinkerers.

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Several comments:

I've seen Chronys be accurate, and not so accurate--though 3100 fps with a 150 in a .30-06 isn't out of the realm of easy possibility.

I would trust the rifle and chronograph much more than QuickLoad. It's an interesting program but like any computer simulation isn't reality, despite how many people seem to think it is.

Also, the "!DANGEROUS LOAD--DO NOT USE!" warning is only due to the relatively low SAAMI max for the .30-06 of 60,000 psi. This is due to many old and otherwise questionable rifles in .30-06, not because a modern rifle in .30-06 is unsafe at around 65,000 psi, the SAAMI max for several similar rounds, including the .270 Winchester.

There are several modern powders that are listed as being able to start 150's at 3000+ in the .30-06--at SAAMI pressures. H4350 is one, and there's no real reason (other than a bunch of low-number Springfields) not to boost the velocity a little.


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Originally Posted by Mule Deer
Several comments:

I've seen Chronys be accurate, and not so accurate--though 3100 fps with a 150 in a .30-06 isn't out of the realm of easy possibility.

I would trust the rifle and chronograph much more than QuickLoad. It's an interesting program but like any computer simulation isn't reality, despite how many people seem to think it is.

Also, the "!DANGEROUS LOAD--DO NOT USE!" warning is only due to the relatively low SAAMI max for the .30-06 of 60,000 psi. This is due to many old and otherwise questionable rifles in .30-06, not because a modern rifle in .30-06 is unsafe at around 65,000 psi, the SAAMI max for several similar rounds, including the .270 Winchester.

There are several modern powders that are listed as being able to start 150's at 3000+ in the .30-06--at SAAMI pressures. H4350 is one, and there's no real reason (other than a bunch of low-number Springfields) not to boost the velocity a little.


Nice to know... all my boys rifles are 30-06s...

I use Nosler Bullets and IMR 4350 and keep the loads around 2900Ft/Sec.

It is as accurate as they are and seems fast enough.

Nice to hear what I suspected / hoped...

"This is due to many old and otherwise questionable rifles in .30-06, not because a modern rifle in .30-06 is unsafe at around 65,000 psi, the SAAMI max for several similar rounds, including the .270 Winchester."


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I agree that quickload is just another "thermometer" but I'm finding it much more accurate in todays world than reloading data that has gone crazy soft.
What I do like about quickload and will say IT IS VERY USEFUL is that when working up a load I ask it what's the fastest I might be able to push a bullet/barrel length combo. It will give me all the powders near say 65k pressure. I usually set about 50 fps slower than the top few combos as a "top end" load. That very often is where I see pressure signs with most my guns.
It also useful to use the "step up chart" like that above once you've chrono'd a load to work up a little quicker. Sometimes quickload seems dead on but sometimes it might not match and be 4% off.

And I ALWAYS look at data from other sources and draw a balanced approach to work up. I would buy quickload again in a heartbeat but I do enjoy and do a fair amount of reloading.

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3110 with H4350 would make me feel like the load was too hot. Why push the envelope to the edge is my thinking. Add a some other variable like a bit of ice in the barrel or debri that isn't seen and all of a sudden your a realm of disaster. Maybe I'm exaggerating but just my way of looking at it.


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