Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Winchester Collectors Counterfeit 70s

It's a well-known fact among 70 lovers that there's a lot of the above...George Madis once told me he abandoned the idea of writing a book on 70s because he did not want to upset many of his friends who thought they had good guns hich were, in fact, fakes....

A well known friend of mine who values 70s for the Blue Book told me of a guy (old timers know of or about him-I think he did time for defrauding some people) who showed up at his shop years ago with a trunk full (6) 9mm barrels made by a fellow in Michigan-all for sale, of course...all perfectly aged in appearance and identically roll-stamped like the real McCoy....that turned me off from ever owning a 9mm....especially when stumbling across one at an OGCA show for sale by a guy from.....Michigan!

I did buy a few nice guns from a guy in NE PA years ago whose wife's uncle had worked in the Winchester Custom Shop....I was always a little suspicious even though a Winchester IS a Winchester, at least then it was, in my mind...

Many of us know the obvious ne'er do wells who deal, or have dealt, in bad guns...to my mind there's plenty of fakes floating around...I recall talking with a very talented gunsmith a few years ago who made a respectable amount of dough restoring 70s that were very hard to determine were not original when he was done with them....I got so jaded I gave up and sold off dozens I had amassed over the years....

Roger Rule's book is full of enough questionable material that can result in a well-heeled budding collector to quickly be separated from some serious money if caution and restraint along with the advice of an experienced 70 expert are not employed...one of the biggest is the belief that many SGs were not stamped on the barrel underside. Winchester's attention to manufacturing detail, even in the days of pre-CNC equipment, resulted in the easy interchangeability of barrels.

I could ramble on...provenance with unusual rifles is rare indeed on 70s...would like to hear others' thoughts...

I have always leaned towards the common calibers in M70's; because I could get a nicer gun while spending less money and not worry about a fake. I would buy a rare gun if I knew it's provenience.

It's wise to have a good basis of knowledge before delving into collecting M70s.. I've spotted several fakes at auction - and it's possible that the owner simply didn't know or that they did..

One guy I sent a pm to thanked me profusely for pointing out a serious mistake in his auction - and promptly changed it to reflect a true and honest description..

As with any purchase of any rifle it's 'buyer beware', while much better to be 'buyer be knowledgeable'..

The most "fakes", I have seen have been transition period carbines,some bad,some took a LOT of careful looking.. '46-'50,

I never bought into the fact that all Super Grades were stamped on the bottom of the barrels,several old factory guys have told me they sometimes had barreled action made up, waiting on stocks or special orders.

I have heard of reboring 7x57mm to 9x57 and then carefully
restamping the caliber from 7 to 9, but have never encountered
one. Then again I have never handled either caliber in a pre-64
M70.

I knowingly bought a "mint" 358 Win Featherweight counterfeit M70 that was beautifully done. It looked as new and with my eyes and knowledge could have been original. I had wanted one but could see paying the going price for an original as every one I found was in exceptional condition therefore high dollar and I planned to hunt it. The seller was honest. I hunted it some and sold it as a counterfeit rifle when I lived in Canada.

Back then the Winchester custom shop would build just about any
caliber/style/variation a person wanted. I never could understand a M70 bull barrel bench gun in .35 Remington, but
some people wanted them.

The .35 Remington was (is) an accurate cartridge. I would love a bull barreled .35 Remington

I would rather have a featherweight .257 Roberts ........
That would really be something.

Ok, I would rather have a featherweight .35 Remington

Was just looking through the "Blue Book of Gun Values" and
the author notes that on certain M70 calibers: 250Sav, 300Sav,
35Rem, 7x57, and 9x57, etc. that these calibers are seldom
seen or sold and be wary of fakes. Also mentions that carbines
are faked also.

Carbines are not easy to fake as they have their front sight milled into the barrel - it's not sweated on like the newer pre-64 M70's. So to fake one you will need to make the entire barrel from scratch plus get all the correct roll marks and proof marks.

Common calibers are generally a safe bet for being authentic. No incentive to fake them.

I thought so too,until I saw one done by cutting the barrel to carbine lenght,cutting the muzzle off to about 1/2" behind the intergal sight,boring out the old barrel making a tube so to speak and swagging/soldering the tube to the turned down portion of the original "shortened barrel" this guy was good and glad to know he's now too old to do it any more.I seen three like this.I do not know who the machinist had bluing and polishing,but they were good too! The whole thing worked the same way the British sleeve shotgun barrels,The fit and finish at this sleeve line could only been seen out in bright sunlight.

How did he get the rifling to match up? It's sad that someone with that much talent chose to use it for fraud instead of for good.

Im starting to see more M70 Target rifles at gunshows, usually
30-06 caliber.

No need to match up....The barrel has been cut to 20",then turned down to except this sleeve with the intergral sight/base.