Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Muzzleloaders Alliant Black MZ?????

So what is this stuff? Something new or is it the new name for the Black Dot they announced a while back? I'm guessing not after that little problem at the BlackMag factory.

It also appears that Goex has dropped Pinnacle.

I'm so confused. I think I'll just make the 40 mile drive and get real black.

It's just APP powder with a new label.

You can never go wrong with real BP. Swiss being the premium black powder.

American Pioneer / Shockey's Gold is the worst propellant I've ever evaluated. Pinnacle as well was made by American Pioneer. Hodgdon bought Goex, so the discontinuation of Pinnacle was a certainty.

Blackpowder has always been a consistent propellant, but availability can be a problem. Alliant has extremely good distribution and, while APP had no apparent quality control, Alliant claims to test every lot, and shot to shot velocity variations within 30 - 35 fps are now commonplace.

Black-MZ has the appeal of easy ignition, a lower auto-ignition temperature than Pyrodex, less corrosivity than black, Pyrodex, T7, and it is more moisture-resistant as well. It works best as 90 grain (volume) charges in many .50 caliber frontloaders.

How can it be more moisture resistant when it clumps up so easily?
Testing all the batches won't change that.

should give you the idea.

Clumping is common particularly with any residual oil or solvents; it works best with dry barrels.

Alliant Black MZ was a big disappointment to the muzzleloading community. It is nothing more then rebadged American Pioneer JSP Super. Alliant should be ashamed of themselves for putting their name on it!! If you want the best buy Blackhorn 209.

couldnt believe it myself when i saw they just put american pioneer in the bottle. APP can be a good consistent powder, and accurate as heck too but it and nothing else compares to BH209.

Who says so? Can you name twenty people that have actually used it, much less a "community"?

It has its niche, based on its easy ignition. If you use #11 caps, its is a way to get away from Pyrodex and associated barrel-rotting. Black Mag 3 had more potential, but the explosion and a couple of dead folks quickly ended that one.

what they claim and what they actually do are 2 different things. You still have to swab between shots in order to seat the next load. So thats one issue right off the bat thats a false claim is the no swabbing part. Erratic FPS is the number 1 issue as usual.

Clumping is in the bottle. It has nothing to do with what's in the barrel.

Do you agree that's it's just APP powder Randy?

Is there something wrong with trying to be fair? It is vastly improved over Shockey's. It is suitable for #11 caps. It is less filthy and less corrosive than Pyrodex. It does suck less moisture than T7, has less of a crud ring. It is sulfur-free. It is easier to clean up than Pyrodex or T7.

I wouldn't personally hunt with it . . . Black Horn 209 is, by far, the best bp replacement on the market and the best ever. No question in my mind . . . and I have hunted with BH209 and will continue to. I'm not using sidelocks, though, nor am I using #11 cap ignition.

I've not had any "in the bottle" clumping. The shooting I've done has been with a .50 cal. Omega. It does form a ring by the QLA, easy to brush away, and not at the level of Pyrodex / T7 as far as filth and clean-up. That the OEM is APP is no secret, Alliant has been very open about that. It is improved over Shockey's, so a flippant "just APP" isn't exactly accurate.

Well, since I shoot a sidelock it appears to be an option then unlike BH209. Never had a problem with real black, clean up isn't that bad IMHO, but finding a place that carries it is often a problem.

Thank you to all who have tried to help.

Thank you, sir. I hadn't thought about that.

i havent tried it yet with patched round balls. Thats next on the list! I just wonder how BH209 will react to the lubed patch.

Filthy is a non issue to a hunter. As dirty as Goex is. You can load a second shot if needed. Which brings up a point. As long as a ML takes to load. Have you ever needed a second shot, and got it loaded in time with a ML?

APP came with a dissectant in the bottle. I don't think any other powder has to do that. Does Black MZ do that? Same powder. I'm not sure you never saw clumping in the bottle. It's a well known problem, and i've seen it.

So, I don't worry about a powder being hard to load or clean. I worry about a powder that sucks in moisture after it's been loaded. I also worry about a powder that's inconsistent in FPS. That changes the POI. APP doesn't score high in either of those categories. The Alliant powder still looks like the same kitty litter, but a darker color.

I'll need to see some range tests to believe they made it better.

Absolutely--this is the reason for my interest in it! Hunting with 209 primers during muzzleloader season in the northwest is not lawful. I'm a fan of Triple Seven because I don't want to leave a corrosive substance in the bore after a fowling shot. Unfortunately, Triple Seven ignition can be marginal with caps when the weather is cold (like it is on every hunt ;)). Even with nightly cleaning, taking a fowling shot at O-dark:30 every day is even less practical. Who wants to start making noise and scaring the game away before shooting light even arrives? A non-corrosive powder enables leaving the bore in a condition best suited for accuracy without damaging it.


Why yes I have! I shot a whitetail buck at 107 yards once. He never saw me prone in the grass and ran down the other side of the draw from me until he stood about 65 yards away from me. He just stood there for what seemed to be the longest time (plenty of time to reload). He looked a bit shaky but didn't drop so I dropped him with the second shot. I always reload!

American Pioneer is corrosive

Alliant says Black MZ is "Virtually non-corrosive." I don't know what "virtually" means but combustion always produces water, which itself is corrosive, and the claim seems solid enough from a solid company for me to try it! I have some AP Shokey's Gold. If nothing else, it will be interesting to see if they've tightened up the grain size consistency vs. AP SG.

"virtually"

Trust me, its still corrosive but just not near as bad as Pyrodex or black powder.

I always reload too. And I always use Goex ffg and maxiballs.

At the range I can go 5 or 6 shots without swabbing with this combo.

Real BP can be "mail ordered" from Track of the Wolf and other places.

Hard to believe alot of what you read. I just bought some MZ at sportsmans warehouse for $10.00 a pound. It had numerous dessicant packs in it and I noticed some clumping that crumbled easily. I took it out & shot it in my Zoli .58 with 50 gr. volume. It was very consistent only 100 fps slower than 777 at same volume. I cranked up the volume and at 60 gr. volume, it was even with the 777 at 50 gr.. Was shooting Minie balls...Lyman 315 grain SWC as well as a Lee .578 Target flat nose sledgehammer thing. Had a few .580 minies I bobought from Track of Wolf thatshot well. Think the black MZ ought to be great for Minie shooters as it has a slower pressure rise seems like.

I sure had good luck with it and easy cleanup. Not in same league as Pyrodex. More akin to 777 but slower. I'm picking up 2 more pounds at $9.99 per at Sportsman.

you'll like it with a huge conical like that. It does best with a tight fitting sabot or a heavy slug like it.

Tried the Black MZ and 777 in my .58 Zouave. Black MZ performed great with the heavier Minie's and no swabbing between shots. Cleanup is not like black or pyrodex. Good stuff if you ask me.

This is from someone who actually shot the stuff and chrono tested it. Very consistent velocities. Lighter charges not so efficient but once up in weight, really shines. not much compression with Minie ball, just more weight.

After trying a couple of substitutes in sidelocks, I've decided that my next one will only be fed BP. I have a large distributor nearby, but it also can be ordered online, and the purchase of a few pounds will ease the hazmat pain a bit. I read a test report on Old Eynsford (spelling?) and it performed very well in a number of different applications. Using Ballistol for cleaning eliminated all that seasoning nonsense for me.

If I get bored I might even try it in my Knight Ultralite, which has only been fed BH209 so far.

no such thing as seasoning your bore. It will still taste my steel.

I've been using it in a few rifles and it has performed well so far. I want to use one powder for #11 and 209's, it lights with either with no issue. I've used it with PRB, Great Plains, Maxi-Ball, and sabot with good results. I've not yet used it really cold weather, but it was 33 degrees when I got to the range this weekend. The powder does come with desiccant packs inside and it will clump up a little. I just lightly shook the bottle and the clumps went away.

I can load multiple shots without wiping the barrel, except with sabots. The plastic fouling is the issue in that instance. You can still load that second shot with the sabot, but it's a bich.

Clean up is easy, but I'm pretty thorough with that no matter what I use.

The biggest thing that drove me to it was the issue with T7 shooting to a VERY different POI between a clean barrel and the second shot, even if it was wiped between. That was a confidence killer.

Well, I will go ahead and give my 2 cents worth. I bought a pound of Black MZ. It's what I run in my Knight LK93 54 Caliber. I shoot 425 grain Hornady Great Plains bullets in that rifle with 100 grains of the Black MZ and it is good to go, accuracy wise, with only a spit patch and a dry patch after every two shots.

My rifle is set up to shoot number 11 caps, so I can't shoot BH209.

I'll likely buy another pound. (Oh, and like others have mentioned, a shake of the can does away with clumps.)

Since my last post, I have shot the black MZ in a couple more guns. I hunted doves using an old N.R. Davis caplock double 11 gauge. Using 1 oz. and 1-1/8 oz. of #7 and equal volume Black MZ, it was a real dove killing combination. I switched to #7 from 7-1/2 as it seems to work better on those tough Eurasian ring neck ones. Anyhow, it worked great in the shotgun application. I next tried it in my 20 ga. Pedersoli "trade gun" flintlock. I used a charge of 4f real deal black in the pan. Had bad luck getting the Black MZ to go off in the flintlock. It may have something to do with the fact that I'm just now breaking in to shooting flintlock guns or else it is harder to light off. Sure didn't have any trouble in the caplocks. I wound up poking a wire thru the flash hole and got it to light off that way. Still, was a noticeable hangfire compared to Wano 2F from Graf's. Next, will try it in some BP cartridge guns and see about those. So, the quest continues!

This, I know for sure:
I have had no troubles with any kind of fouling that required me to wipe between shots.
Cleanup is a breeze.
It is not even in the same category as Pyrodex as far as being corrosive goes. I haven't noticed any sort of corrosive effect really.
It is a bit harder to set off than real black but not noticeable with percussion guns for me.
Works great in shotguns and heavyweight bullet guns.

Also, that the jury is still out. Making a call on this stuff right away is like buying a car based on a report by one of the popular car magazines on a new car. Bring me that car in 5 years and then we can make a judgement on whether the car is really any good over the long haul. My opinion, your mileage may vary. Peace out!

That's been my results using the sister 50gr pellets (Blue MZ) with my two inlines. I like it overall also. But I refuse to give it a permanent green light until after this next upcoming hunting season in late fall.

I've run across issues using substitute powders before, that didn't show their ugly side until fully tested in all kinds of weather and temps. I'll never use Blackhorn, Pyrodex, American Pioneer/Shockeys or 777 again.
So I will hold judgement of MZ until 2019 and continue use of Goex FFF in my sidehammers.

Real black powder. Order it from powder Inc or another distributor.
Or just stuff sugar and fertilizer down the barrel, may as well.

Cant imagine why you would refer to it as a sister. The only relation they have is the Alliant branding. One is made by APP and the pellets sure appear to be a IMR product with blue dye added. It would be like saying White Hots and JSG Super powder are "sisters". Its very easy to prove this just by looking at who holds the patents on both products.....Here is a hint....Its not Alliant. If that isnt enough look at the Safety Data Sheets. The BlueMz is identical to IMR White Hots.

yep blue mz is in fact repackaged IMR Whitehots. Alliant doesnt make any black powder subs.

A flintlock can not produce the higher heat required to light off substitutes for black powder. You will only get satisfactory ignition in flintlocks using real black powder. The substitute powders require higher heat, the main reason for the "magnum" hotter caps we now have, the musket cap conversion nipples, and the guns made to use shotgun primers.

In the year 1834 Nathaniel Wyeth wrote in his journal about converting 3 flintlock rifles to percussion because the powder they had access to was in poor condition and the flintlocks would not ignite it. The percussion cap produces a much hotter flame than a flintlock can.

The one time I was forced to try substitute powder was a failure in the flintlocks and not much better in the cap locks. The only good use we have found for it is in our cannons with a burning fuse. And we never run out of it because someone is always giving us their partially used containers after they tried it in their rifles with dismal results.

If one is forced to use artificial black powder I would recommend a rifle that can use a musket cap or better yet a 209 shotgun primer.

What about accuracy in the inlines with these powders? I ask cause I just opened my first Alliant " black powder" . I can't get this Encore to shoot well at all. I tried Blackhorn and even with the magnum CCI primers it has a split second fizz before going off. I used 777 and it seemed fine so I may get more. I tried 44 cal. / green sabots, 45 cal. black Harvesters, I tried 50 cal home made cast bullets with terrible results. I made sure the scope was tight. I did everything and it is a 4" 50 yd gun and no better. 90 gr. of Alliant seems to be the best but not my much.

If you're getting delayed ignition with BH209, it's most likely your breech plug is partly blocked by residue. A wire pick won't remove it, it has to be dug out with proper-sized drill bits and solvent. Also, lubricated lead bullets don't have enough bore resistance for proper ignition and burn with BH. I've had Ball-ets bloop downrange trailing smoke like bottle rockets. Very pretty, according to my wife!

Pappy, do I need a 209 blackthorn plug ? Ive heard of them but never seen them.

Never heard of a special one for the Encore.

The flash channel on the Encore plugs is 1/8" and needs to be cleaned with a drill bit. If you have the long plug its a super good idea to use a mag primer like Fed209A or CCI209M. http://www.blackhorn209.com/specs/breech-plug-cleaning/

Does your Encore plug look like this?

Well the first mistake would be using ball-ets. They are very light and short for caliber. BH209 works just fine with lead conicals if they have enough mass/length and you use a veggie wad. Ive shot tons of them from 350gr upto 490gr without a fizzle. There are other factors too like how well the breach plug works with BH209 and sizing the conical a couple 1000ths over land size.