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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 73,096 |
The word Parabellum is a noun coined by German arms maker Deutsche Waffen und Munitionsfabriken and is derived from the Latin saying si vis pacem, para bellum, meaning If you wish for peace, prepare for war. The term has been used in the naming of a number of cartridges.
George Orwell was a Prophet, not a novelist. Read 1984 and then look around you!
Old cat turd!
"Some men just need killing." ~ Clay Allison.
I am too old to fight but I can still pull a trigger. ~ Me
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Posts: 19,045
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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Yep.
Kind of tough to mount an argument that the 9mm WASN'T designed for military use, and combat.
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Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
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From Wikipedia:
.....Georg Luger developed the 9�19mm Parabellum cartridge from Luger's earlier 7.65�21mm Parabellum. In 1902, Luger presented the new round to the British Small Arms Committee as well as three prototype versions to the U.S. Army for testing at Springfield Arsenal in mid-1903. The German Navy adopted the cartridge in 1904 and in 1906 the German Army adopted it as well.... I applaud your efforts but feel it's a total waste of time, trying to prove anything to Raisin is like pushing $hit up hill with a sharp stick. When I was a kid I remember reading a book about military weapons and in there it stated the 9mm and the Luger pistol were specifically designed for military use. I no longer have the book and even if I did I wouldn't be able to post the info so Raisin wouldn't believe it. The fact that he considers the 1911 ( a pistol I really like)to be the only sidearm developed specifically for military use and the fact that he thinks the Walker Colt wasn't is proof of his very limited knowledge of firearms of any type.
The original international turd
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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The "choice to carry FMJ" ammo is not "quite foolish".
The Military does it all the time.
Even its name says it all:
= FULL MILITARY JACKET =
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
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The military does so out of necessity, by restriction of the Hague Convention. Another, lesser, consideration in the military's use of FMJ ammo is its propensity to function across a wider spectrum of weapons platforms. When given the choice, carrying FMJ in lieu of JHP ammunition is foolish.
Also incorrect is the name you have incorrectly quoted. FMJ stands for Full Metal Jacket.
Last edited by liliysdad; 10/22/11.
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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I know that. - - - - - - - I thought everyone would recognize my above comment as being factious.  I also do understand your point ... BUT I just happen to use the ammo I already have, if I want to use one of my handguns for a protective purpose. Often for the sense of security that a gun affords me in the darker places - more than the perception of any real threat. Putting FMJ "holes" into someone is NOT necessarily ineffective. (As you said otherwise.) Putting holes into someone where there isn't supposed to be any holes - can still make them just as dead. It happens all the time. For me, I don't concern myself with all the ballistic comparisons and honed readiness of handgun combat/self defense. I am comfortable with a good gun and any bullet (which is still quite effective) in the unlikely situation that I would have to deploy it anyways. I was trying to make a point (earlier post) that the people who are doing all the senseless killing are doing an effective job using only common guns and common ammo. Citizens who are MORE discriminating, certainly have the right to exercise ALL the stratigical options at their disposal. I respect that. I probably have a firearm accessable when I want one, MORE than ayone else that I associate with. But certainly not nearly as much as many of the good folks on this Handgun Forum. I'm only 'offering' a different opinion that happens to suit ME - And NOT recommending my particular view to anyone else.
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Joined: Apr 2005
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,891 |
The military does so out of necessity, by restriction of the Hague Convention. Another, lesser, consideration in the military's use of FMJ ammo is its propensity to function across a wider spectrum of weapons platforms. When given the choice, carrying FMJ in lieu of JHP ammunition is foolish.
Also incorrect is the name you have incorrectly quoted. FMJ stands for Full Metal Jacket. The Military uses a lot of expanding/fragmenting ammo. The US is not a signatory of the Hague Accord
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
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I realize the US is not a signatory of the Accords, but they still, for the most part, abide by them voluntarily. I am also aware of the use of fragmenting and expanding ammunition by certain factions within the military, predominantly when the mission falls outside of the guidelines of the afore mentioned Accords.
As for the choice of FMJ, I never said, not would ever argue that FMJ is ineffective, only that is the worst possible choice. A horse and buggy will surely get you where you need to go, but its not the best choice given modern alternatives. In comparison to modern expanding JHP ammunition, FMJ performs very poorly, with the sole exception of barrier penetration. I keep a magazine of FMJ ammo for the duty gun I carry for just this scenario.
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Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
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Can we get back to the original poster's question?
"Behavior accepted is behavior repeated."
"Strive to be underestimated."
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Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
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Sure can.
In my mind a pp handgun is a last ditch defensive weapon for close range.
To that end it needs to go bang everytime it's supposed to and push a reasonably large hunk of lead out quick enough to incapacitate an attacker.
It doesn't need bells and whistles, no tacticool rails and lasers and bayonets and grenade launchers, just a plain reliable pistol in a fairly large caliber.
The original international turd
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See, I tend to think along the lines of what will average joe citizen jury member believe.
MR prosecutor is standing there holding your tricked out 9mm with the tactical rail mounted light, the laser, the extended 25 round mag etc etc and asking "What was the purpose of owning the pistol you shot my client mr scumbag rapist home invader with?"
And you say "To defend myself and family" He then points out all the added bells and whistles you put on there to make it "a more efficient killing machine". MR joe citizen jury member thinks "Hmmmmmmm looks like the one on that movie with the assassin who killed all those people"
Or he's standing there holding your grandfathers bone stock 1911/ browning/luger that he brought back from the war asking the same question and you answer him, "It was my grandfathers and I keep it to protect my family"
MR joe citizen jury member thinks "Hmmmmmm looks like my grandfathers pistol"
which scenario is more likely to end well for you?
Both pistols kill or wound just as effectively as the other, the difference is perception of the public.
The original international turd
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
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Having been a part of, and witness to, several trials, both jury and non, I have never seen the make, caliber, ancestry, or modification of any firearm used in a shooting be a factor in anything. Mas Ayoob strikes again.
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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"I feel like I'm playin' cards with my brother's kids."
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Posts: 13,798
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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Posts: 13,798 |
"I feel like I'm playin' hopscotch with my sister's daughters."
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 18,881
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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Posts: 18,881 |
Buttstock, I found your post to be a very good one when it came to choosing a handgun for self defense. One should always consider the effects of stress and the training/experience level of the user. I bought a S&W Kit Gun, in .22 LR as a self defense gun for my first wife because that's was her level of training and experience.
I would suggest, however, that you test a shotgun at across the room distances. At those ranges, the spread of the shot isn't useful. Powerful and deadly, yes. But it works like a rifle at that range. You need to be 15-20 yds from your target before the pattern spreads much. E
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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Very good points Mak. When carrying concealed what are the threats or uses to which the gun will be used ? You answered that quite well.
I, too, would point out that the larger, well established auto loaders are very tough. As a cop, I saw alot of revolvers dropped on hard surfaces or used as clubs. 50% of those dropped on hard surfaces would not fire, the clynders wouldn't rotate, when picked up. Never saw a big auto, like a 1911 Colt or a Browning HP put out of action. Talked to a gunsmith with a big bussiness in repairing guns, including cop guns, who told me he had lots of parts for wheel guns but stocked none for auto loaders. E
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Posts: 24,660
Campfire Ranger
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OP
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 24,660 |
WTM45,
I am still waiting for you to tell me how you KNOW how many people have gone t*ts up after being capped with a 9MM Luger and how many gave up ghosts due to the .45 ACP. Did you rely on something you read in a gun magazine, or did you just make it up?
Trying to reason my way through your wild accusation, it would be impossible to know unless one perused autopsy reports, which I'd bet you haven't. So that leaves the FACT that you're willing to spread bullsugar in order to try to win an argument, which makes you awfully darn suspicious.
Next thing you're gunna write is that a 9MM Luger & not silver bullets is what really works to send Dracula back to his castle.
R Any simple study of actual historical military documents will clearly show how many countries have issued and used the 9MM in combat operations around the globe. Ordinance issue reports continue to support the premise that more 9MM ammo has been created, issued and expended through handguns worldwide than .45ACP. One country alone has burned more 9MM rounds in combat than you can dream. Regradless of what you THINK or imagine the 9MM was designed for combat, is a combat proven round and is well designed for such. The amount of factual information is quite vast, and is easily found by someone who would wish to increase their knowledge of military small arms and their application. I suggest you do your own work. Seems you don't have a decent grasp of what has occured within the US regarding military small arms, nevertheless the entire globe. I offer you resources, you dismiss them out of hand without consideration. Why would I waste time sharing more of my library with you? I will refute incorrect information at will. Be prepared. WTM45, Just what research info have you provided other than your proclamations? Are you assuming that because a handgun was issued that it was actually used in combat? That is was designed for combat? Not even the venerable Peacemaker was designed for combat. It was a frontier weapon that was used in combat. The 9MM is a horrible self-defense round when compared with other, more suitable rounds. In the 80's it was all the rage in law enforcement, assuredly due to high capacity handguns that chambered it. But now it's not found that often on the hips of our nation's cops. The agencies for which I used to work do not even allow its cops to carry a 9MM. One issues only the .45 ACP while the other limits handguns to either the .40 or .45. I used to work with a woman whose hands were too small for an H&K USP full-size .45 ACP. The agency that employed us allowed her to carry a compact version, but it was .45 ACP. It seems as though you've postured yourself into the untenable position of 9MM superiority and will rely upon your assertions without factual basis for supporting them. If you want to believe the 9MM is all that, have at it. But your proclamations without proof is fantasy...just like your proclamation about how many people have been killed by the 9MM. You have no clue how many people have died as a result of a 9MM nor does anyone. At best it's a guess. Yet you insist it's factual. As a former professor I once had used to refrain, theory w/o facts is fantasy. So where are your facts to support your fantasy??? A battle handgun is a last resort weapon save for those sent into tunnels in Vietnam. The idea is to prepare so a soldier does not have to rely upon a last resort weapon. Finally, you have repeatedly asserted that the 9MM was designed for battle. Yet you have provided no proof of your claim. Please provide a link that supports your claim. I'm sure the 9MM was designed to kill, but that's not even close to it being a battle weapon unless you're implying its use as a submachine gun round. In contrast, the US Army found that handguns, namely the .38, that were used in battle were wholly ineffective. Therefore, it commissioned its ordinance department to accept bids from small arms manufacturers for handguns designed for battle that were chambered for a cartridge that would work as a weapon of last resort. The 1911A1 proved to work so well that in the Korean War many soldiers preferred it to the .30 Carbine. Keep close to your heart the FACT that theory w/o facts is fantasy. R You need to pick up a BOOK; http://www.amazon.com/Handguns-World-Military-Revolvers-Self-Loaders/dp/0811708160The 9mm was designed as a military cartridge. What's more I'd like to see you back you YOUR comments on the 9mm. True it is not nearly as popular for LE use now that we have the .40 but it is still used quite widely, including the NYPD (the largest police force in the world, and the 8th largest standing army; or used to be) and the FBI issues 9mm's to those who prefer it. Most of the impetus for the move to .40 came from 147 grain JHP failures on the street, even a couple that involved cops being shot by their partners THROUGH the intended victim because the JHP failed to expand. But those stories are all over 15 years old. The current crop of 9mm 147 grain JHP's perform VERY well (I know, I've personally done ballistic gelatin tests myself) and still meet all the FBI's requirments. As a former Paramedic, I've actually TREATED a good number of handgun wounds in my day, and if you think there's any meaningful difference on a person hit with a 9mm vs. a .40 or .45 then you'll just be disappointed. The only thing that really matters is where you place your shot. Do that well and everything such as caliber and load are a non-issue.
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Campfire Sage
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Campfire Sage
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 131,531 |
the NYPD ... in the world ... the 8th largest standing army Very astute observation. The Founding Fathers would have had no hesitation identifying our modern police forces as internal standing armies, something they considered the second greatest threat to the liberties of a free people, the first being banks with the power to print a nation's currency and to determine interest rates, such as we've had since 1913.
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Campfire Ranger
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OP
Campfire Ranger
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Let's put this 9mm NONSENSE to rest.
Book: Handguns of the World by Edward Clinton Ezell
Page: 181
Text:
The success of the Marine Model 1904 and the 1906 neuer art pistols led the German Army to further consider the Luger Parabellum as a military pistol. On 22 August 1908, it adopted a slightly modified neuer Art Pistole in 9 x 19mm, officially designated the Pistole Parabellum (Pistol for War), but more commonly known as the Pistole 08 or simply, the P08.
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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I suppose we'll never know how many American soldiers were put down and flat out killed in WWII by that worthless 9mm parabellum FMJ.
More than a few, I expect.
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