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Guys, I posted this on another thread because I see a disturbing number of members have been sucked into the hype around the 5.7mm FN handgun cartridge. This cartridge is being pushed very heavily by European governments and manufacturers for political and economic reasons, and has been shown time and again over the past 15 years to be an answer in search of a question that doesn't need to be asked. It is NOT a viable cartridge from a ballistics or tactical viewpoint.

If you like this cartridge in your gun, more power to you. I am not saying it's a bad cartridge intrinsically, and any caliber that gets anyone shooting more is a good thing in my book.

But let's not go so far as to think this cartridge should be what we are arming our warriors with when they're on the sharp end of the spear.

Copied from a post by Dr. Roberts:
10/13/11

"Several papers have described the incredibly poor terminal performance of the 5.7 x 28 mm projectiles fired by the FN P90:

--Dahlstrom D, Powley K, and Gordon C: �Wound Profile of the FN Cartridge (SS 190) Fired from the FN P90 Submachine Gun". Wound Ballistic Review. 4(3):21-26; Spring 2000.
--Fackler M: "Errors & Omissions", Wound Ballistic Review. 1(1):46; Winter 1991.
--Fackler M: "More on the Bizarre Fabrique National P-90", Wound Ballistic Review. 3(1):44-45; 1997.
--FBI Academy Firearms Training Unit. FBI Handgun Ammunition Tests 1989-1995. Quantico, U.S. Department of Justice--Federal Bureau of Investigation.
--Hayes C: �Personal Defense Weapons�Answer in Search of a Question�, Wound Ballistic Review. 5(1):30-36; Spring 2001.
--Roberts G: �Preliminary Evaluation of the Terminal Performance of the 5.7 x 28 mm 23 Grain FMJ Bullet Fired by the New FN P-90 , Using 10% Ordnance Gelatin as a Tissue Simulant�, AFTE Journal. 30(2):326-329, Spring 1998.

"The current 31 gr SS-190 FMJ bullet has nearly adequate penetration, but the wound resulting from this projectile has a relatively small permanent crush cavity, as well as an insignificant temporary stretch cavity. Although the 5.7 x 28 mm penetrates soft body armor, wounding potential is at best like a .22 LR or .22 Magnum. Even 9mm NATO FMJ makes a larger wound--and we are all aware of the awe inspiring incapacitation potential of M882 ball from the M9......

"A few large U.S. LE agencies adopted 5.7 mm weapons--after being involved in several OIS incidents with P90's, 5.7 mm usage in these agencies plummeted as a result of the poor terminal performance.

"It is all basic physics and physiology. Look at the surface areas in contact with tissue for 9 mm FMJ and JHP compared to 5.7 mm. When both are point forward, the 9 mm FMJ crushes more tissue than the 5.7 mm; for the short time that the 5.7 mm is at FULL yaw, it crushes a bit more tissue than the 9 mm FMJ. At no time does the 5.7 mm crush more tissue than the expanded 9 mm JHP--even when the 5.7 mm FMJ is at full yaw, an expanded 9 mm JHP crushes more tissue. The relatively small temporary cavities produced by both the 9 mm and 5.7 mm projectiles are not likely to cause significant injury to the majority of elastic structures of the body.

"The P90 can definitely penetrate soft body armor, but then so can 9 mm AP rounds. The greater momentum of 9 mm bullets allow them to defeat vehicles and other intermediate barriers better than the 5.7 mm bullets. Standard 9 mm, .40 S&W, and .45 ACP JHP loads crush more tissue, offer ideal penetration, and are equally likely to not exit the opponent as the 5.7 mm. 5.56 mm and 6.8 mm weapons offer significantly superior terminal effects compared to 5.7 mm. Bottom line�what does the P90 offer that is not already available?"



Last edited by DocRocket; 11/16/11. Reason: emphasis added

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I had a big response typed up, but I don't really want to kick this hornets nest, so I'll sum it up quickly.

I've had a 5.7 handgun and I'll own one again. I own a PS90 now. My neighbor is in the secret service and carries a P90.

I've shot the round a lot, and I love it. Matter of fact, I bought 1000 more rounds yesterday.

What does it offer that's not available already? The ability to make multiple, fast shots, on target.

You've clearly taken the "5.7 is worthless" side of the debate, but as a frequent visitor to the various 5.7 forums, I can tell you there's just as much data out there supporting the cartridge- i just don't have the energy to dig it up.

There are various bullets and loadings available for the 5.7. If you want to expend energy quickly, you can do that. If you want it to penetrate body armor, it can do that.

The police department in my home town carries 5.7s, and they love them too. There's something to be said for 3 20 round mags on your person.

I have a hunch that in coming years, if FNH ever decides to let other manufacturers make their ammo too, you'll continue to see the popularity of the 5.7 rise, including with PDs and swat teams. I'll bet you a milk shake that in 10 years the 5.7 will be even more popular than it is now. When I bought my 5.7, nobody had really heard of it. Now, they're in every gun shop.

No, it's not for war. Home defense, swat, PD, plinking, varmints, and having fun? Absolutely.

Last edited by dryflyelk; 11/16/11.
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I know I want one.

Is reloading for them a big deal?


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Originally Posted by dryflyelk
I have a hunch that in coming years, if FNH ever decides to let other manufacturers make their ammo too, you'll continue to see the popularity of the 5.7 rise, including with PDs and swat teams. I'll bet you a milk shake that in 10 years the 5.7 will be even more popular than it is now. When I bought my 5.7, nobody had really heard of it. Now, they're in every gun shop.


I'll take you up on that milkshake bet! Whoever's right, we'll at least be able to sit down together and have a good shake and talk guns & hunting. Sounds like a win-win to me!

And yes, it's always a good idea to avoid kicking over a hornets' nest...

Originally Posted by dryflyelk
No, it's not for war. Home defense, swat, PD, plinking, varmints, and having fun? Absolutely.


Like I said, I have no problems with the round for general pistoleer work. But I'm more than a little hesitant to endorse it for general LE use, and less so for military use. I'm called upon to review actual shootings and make ammunition recommendations on a fairly frequent basis and while I've seen ammunition "failures" ascribed to everything from the 5.7mm thru 45 ACP and .223 Rem, in most cases the ammunition is not the problem. Unfortunately, the 5.7mm has had some pretty bad documented failures that in my opinion and that of others far more expert than I would likely not have happened if the round in question had been a 9mm 124 gr JHP or 40 S&W 185 gr JHP, or equivalent in other generally accepted service calibers. I know there are agencies that endorse and even issue the 5.7mm, but these aren't agencies that get into a lot of gunfights. The agencies that DO shoot a lot of bad guys don't endorse the 5.7mm. Is it prejudice? Bad first impressions leading to a general negative view by the industry? I can't say about that.

But as Dr. Roberts points out, in addition to its marginal performance in gelatin tests, the 5.7 has not had a great record in actual gunfights/OIS with agencies that have used it. Yes, the 5.7 lets folks make fast and accurate shots, but with training and experience you can do that with a 45 ACP 1911 or a 9mm, too, and have a much higher probability of a good terminal ballistics/effects outcome.


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I wouldn't worry too much about people niavely purchasing 5.7 guns/ammo. The expense alone may deter many. It's not that big a deal or mistake if someone gets "sucked into" getting one. The 5.7 stuff will always re-sale to someone else.

I know a devestating case can be made on 'one-side' against the 5.7 round in comparison to 'other' calibers ... but that is the nature-of-the-beast regarding Caliber Wars. Many in the U.S. do not like its lack of terminal performance at conversational distances. The Europeans however designed it for effective military defense at longer ranges. It is what it is ...

There was a young southern gal who posted 'here' some years ago.
She bought a new FN Herstal Five-seveN pistol as (maybe) her 1st pistol purchase. I don't know how that one turned out for her ... She may not have been 'savy' but she WAS 'gutsy', for sure.

A lot of shooters really like the 5.7 shooting experience.
Fun, protection, high velocity, long range, accuracy, a different experience ... and they know what/why they are doing.

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Originally Posted by P_Weed
I wouldn't worry too much about people niavely purchasing 5.7 guns/ammo. The expense alone may deter many. It's not that big a deal or mistake if someone gets "sucked into" getting one.


I don't worry at all about what people buy with their firearms budgets. But if people buy a 5.7 for personal protection I do think they deserve to be informed that this round has not stood up to scrutiny by serious end-users. See following post.

Originally Posted by P_Weed
I know a devestating case can be made on 'one-side' against the 5.7 round in comparison to 'other' calibers ... but that is the nature-of-the-beast regarding Caliber Wars.


Sorry, you'll find that the ballistics and tactical community both in the USA and internationally is remarkably united in what works and what doesn't work in the "Caliber Wars". You'll always find lay-people who will loudly proclaim that one standard service caliber or another doesn't work, but among the professionals you'll find that no one has much preference for 9mm/357 SIG/40S&W/45ACP in handgun calibers, or 5.56mm NATO/7.62 NATO for carbines or rifles.

Originally Posted by P_Weed
Many in the U.S. do not like its lack of terminal performance at conversational distances. The Europeans however designed it for effective military defense at longer ranges. It is what it is ...


I confess I don't know which European agencies/powers issue the 5.7mm to their cops/soldiers. Do you? Are these agencies/countries currently involved in active shooting wars? I'd be interested in knowing who they are. Our military people have uniformly been very displeased with the round. (See following post)


Originally Posted by P_Weed
A lot of shooters really like the 5.7 shooting experience.
Fun, protection, high velocity, long range, accuracy, a different experience ... and they know what/why they are doing.


I can heartily concur with the editorial change suggested.


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Guys, I am not willing to "go along to get along" here. The 5.7 has a VERY BAD reputation among people who shoot bad guys for a living. Again, quoting from Dr. Roberts:
Small caliber PDW's like the MP7 and P90 are niche weapons that have very narrow and specific roles to play.

Below are comments specifically on the MP7 by a combat experienced senior SOF NCO currently serving in the U.S. military:


Quote:
�When employing the MP7 up close, you literally use it like a fire hose and sprinkle 4.6 all over the torso of the guy you want to reduce (usually on Auto, which is a CQB no-go anyway), and you have to keep hosing him down with bullets until his brain figures out that you are filling him in. Usually this takes longer than shooting a NSR with a rifle, so by the time that your brain figures out that the guy has quit and is crumpling, you are almost out of bullets and any other threats in the room have most likely started to engage you. IF your team is on their **** and everyone grasps the true importance of primary/secondary sectors of fire, then perhaps you can get in there and all of your guys can sprinkle 4.6 liberally on all of the bad guys in an efficient manner, but if you fail to do that, then bad things will happen quickly.�

Pat Rogers, a former NYPD officer and combat veteran Marine, is a highly respected firearms trainer who has also commented on the use of small caliber PDW�s like 4.6 and 5.7 mm:


Quote:
�Multiple rounds are required to incapacitate. This means significantly more training, which translates into significantly more ammunition expended, at a higher cost per round and with limited sources available. To ensure immediate incapacitation, brain shots will need to be emphasized. Which requires more training, and also more insertion of luck into the equation- especially dealing with multiple opponents. Limited capability within the system means engagement at anything outside of CQB distances may be problematic. This means movement to objective, egress etc will present a whole new range of difficulties. The gun is easy to shoot and fun as well. This does not always translate well to real world applications. If there is a single reason why these platforms are in any way superior to the M4 FOW, it is not apparent to me.��

A decorated, experienced SWAT officer at a U.S. LE agency that has had multiple OIS incidents with 5.7 mm FN P90's has written the following--note that his comments equally apply to the 4.6 mm MP7:


Quote:
�The 5.7 pistol as a carry gun is a mistake. There are far more effective weapons and ammunition combinations out there. The only factor that comes close to equalizing the P90 (not the 5.7 pistol) is it's full auto capability: 900 rpm of very controllable fire. Even this advantage is limited to close-in, CQB type engagements. I can put more rounds on target faster with the P90 than with my M4 in close contact engagements. Unfortunately you may HAVE to put more rounds in the threat due to the lack of damage the projectile causes. The 5.56 is far more effective at getting the attention of men than 5.7 mm. This is not speculation. We have been using 30 P90's for five years now. There have been multiple BG's shot with them. We will not be buying more 5.7 mm or other small caliber PDW systems��

As a result of poor terminal performance, a large Federal agency is also no longer running P90�s like they used to. Likewise, some military units that tried small caliber PDW's in combat are procuring other options, like 9" .300 Blackout uppers to run on M4 lowers.

When a civilian LE agency chooses a full-auto system, significantly more time is needed for training. This increases costs, both in the amount of ammunition necessary to purchase, as well as the need to pay officers for increased time in training, rather than being in the field. Instead of a 1-5 shot NSR with an AR15 based system, with an MP7 each officer is now going to be routinely shooting 15-20+ rounds into each target both in training and in actual OIS incidents, thus the amount of ammo expended is going to be 4 times what would be used with an AR15 based system shooting any common CQB caliber like 5.56 mm, .300 Blackout, 6.8mm, or even 7.62x51mm. How is an LE agency going to afford four times more training ammo for a weapon system like the MP7 that needs to be always shot full auto and whose ammo is more expensive than other common calibers?

In the civilian realm, how is an LE agency going to explain to their Admin and media why they are now needing to shoot every suspect 15-20+ times? In addition, when you are having to shoot 15-20 rounds full-auto at every target, there is a higher likelihood that some of those rounds may miss the target; how is an LE agency going to handle the liability from the potential increased number of missed shots that can occur with a system that needs to be used full-auto like a "fire hose" in order to offer adequate incapacitation of threats?

With the data now available, a U.S. LE agency would have to be woefully ignorant or colossally stupid to purchase the MP7 (or P90) for SWAT use given the numerous weapon systems available for LE SWAT/CQB use that are both better and more cost effective than small caliber PDW's.


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I can't shoot so I would have no right having a point of view whistle


Besides Elmer Keith is my mentor...


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If Keith's your mentor, what the heck are you building a 6.5mm for? Shouldn't you be building a .333 OKH or a .35 Whelen Improved for your new varmint rifle?
grin


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I'll stick with a 1911 and M-1 carbine.


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First i believe the pistol is way over priced and second it wouldn't be my first or second choice for a self defense carry weapon. I wouldn't minded owning one for groundhogs and squirrel hunting.


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First of all, this is the handgun forum, not the "machine gun" forum.
Second, the 5.7 round was designed to shoot through body armor from a handgun. To my knowledge, no 9mm round does that from a handgun.
3rd, try shooting the so called 5.7 FMJ, non expanding, underloaded, practice round into a simple 2.5 gallon jug of water. Then try it with any 115-124 gr. FMJ 9mm round. The results aren't even remotely close. So believe whatever you want. E

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I think I'll go with an M.D. with real world experience rather than anecdotal water jug observations.


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That's your call. But, just for the record, I've seen more than just a few gun shot wounds and deaths as well.
I used the water jug example as something that is readily availiable and realistic in performance.
Congresswoman Giffords was shot throught the forehead with a 9mm FMJ and is alive and well today. That's not unusual I understand. So much for the killing power of the 9mm FMJ from a handgun. E

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If was going to carry any FMJ round it would be the 45 ACP and nothing smaller.


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Originally Posted by DocRocket

..."The current 31 gr SS-190 FMJ bullet has nearly adequate penetration, but the wound resulting from this projectile has a relatively small permanent crush cavity, as well as an insignificant temporary stretch cavity. Although the 5.7 x 28 mm penetrates soft body armor, wounding potential is at best like a .22 LR or .22 Magnum. Even 9mm NATO FMJ makes a larger wound--and we are all aware of the awe inspiring incapacitation potential of M882 ball from the M9......



Don't own one, so I have no dog in the hunt. I can certainly see why it's not useful for our guys in uniform, when they can choose between M4 in .223 or 6.8 SPC.

But I'm reading notes about FMJ bullets in the 5.7, and there will obviously be a huge difference in wounds between expanding and non-expanding bullets. Seems like LEO's and the rest of us can use expanding bullets, and I would think a perp would indeed notice when hit by a varmint bullet at 2300 fps.

I knew a guy 30 years ago who hunted fur avidly in the Texas panhandle. He had a .17 Remington, but quickly sold it after he had to shoot a bobcat 4 times, longest shot 100 yards. Small non-expanding bullets are not particularly effective, even at ~3800 fps

I guess I'll edit to add that the PS90 is certainly an ingenious design, the way it feeds out of a 50 rd magazine; and I can appreciate that as a collector and engineer. The PS90 rifle is too spendy to buy for grins, but I have thought about a AR57 upper for my Armalite. In the end, though, the house long gun is a 9mm carbine, with laser sight. It's loaded with +P JHP's and it should work fine smile

Last edited by tex_n_cal; 11/16/11. Reason: last paragraph

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If the guy you refer to needs to shoot a Bobcat 4 times he needs to use a different bullet in his 17 Rem or learn how to shoot.


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I've been around GSWs and fatalities, too, but none with the 5.7. I know I wouldn't carry it as a primary handgun.


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Originally Posted by bea175
If the guy you refer to needs to shoot a Bobcat 4 times he needs to use a different bullet in his 17 Rem or learn how to shoot.


That was 30 years ago - and bullet selection in .17 was limited in those days. I don't recall if he was using handloads or Rem factory loads, but I recall reading other reports of erratic bullet performance. I've lost track of him since then, but he was an avid shooter & hunter.


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