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Hey Doc, I refuse to accept the 5.7mm has a future because it would prove Hardin/Gun Kid right. Everything would change...even the certainties of death and taxes.


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Originally Posted by DocRocket
If Keith's your mentor, what the heck are you building a 6.5mm for? Shouldn't you be building a .333 OKH or a .35 Whelen Improved for your new varmint rifle?
grin


Already have the heavy end covered wink

Originally Posted by P_Weed
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)))))))))))) DON"T DRINK THE DOCROCKET KOOLAID! ((((((((((((

I'm not.

eek


You obviously don't know what Doc does or what his credentials are do you........


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No. I do not know the good Doc's credentials. I also admit to knowing almost NOTHING about the 5.7 subject - and I do realize that DocRocket KNOWS what he is talking about.

But I still feel that it is NOT that big of a deal.

I don't think there is that much danger of many people getting "sucked in" and being mis-lead by choosing and acquiring 5.7 ammunition & firearms un-aware of 'whatever' potential/inherent shortcomings they may possess. They could do worse.

I think most people that choose that particular format know pretty much what they are doing.

Just my opinion ...

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I wouldn't even consider the 5.7x28 as a defensive round, not even for a secondary gun. It'd be a fun little plinker to play with, no doubt, but I'm not going to trust my life to something punching that size of a hole.
Personally, I'm still a fan of the 10mm, works for bears, mountain lions and two legged critters. It has great penetration capability with the right bullets and I'm a big believer in penetration, I want an exit wound. There's no point in having a bullet stop half way through its target. If the bullet goes in throught the sternum and exits taking pieces of vertebrae with it, so much the better.
That's my biggest complaint about the 45 ACP, I like a bit more penetration. A 460 Rowland might be about perfect.


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Originally Posted by DocRocket


I confess I don't know which European agencies/powers issue the 5.7mm to their cops/soldiers. Do you? Are these agencies/countries currently involved in active shooting wars? I'd be very interested in knowing who they are.

The 5.7x28mm round has found wide acceptance both within NATO and elsewhere. A quick run down (but by no means complete) for those interested:

Belgium- Air Force, Army, Special Forces, National Police SWAT, and Li�ge Municipal Police
Canada- Montreal SWAT
Cyprus- National Guard Special Forces
France- DSGE Intelligence Agency (same function as US CIA)
Greece- EKAM Unit of the National Police
Guatamala- DIGICI Intelligence Agency
India- Special Protection Group (similar to US Secret Service)
Indonesia- Special Diver Group of Indonesian Navy; Special Forces of Indonesian Army
Italy- 9th Parachute Assault Regiment
Libya- the Libyan Armed Forces
Mexico- Mexican Army; Presidential Guard; Special Forces of the Mexican Navy
Nepal- all armed forces
Peru- GRUFE (special forces) of the Armed Forces of Peru
Poland- GROM (Polish Special Forces)
Saudi Arabia- all armed forces
Singapore- Singapore Armed Forces Commando Unit
Spain- Spanish Armed Forces; Madrid Municipal Police
Surinam- Security Forces
Thailand- Royal Thai Army
United States- Secret Service

I would suggest that more than a few of the above countries (Mexico, for instance) are engaged in "active shooting wars" be it against local Communist insurgents, drug cartels, or serving alongside our troops as allies in Iraq or Afghanistan.

Originally Posted by DocRocket
Our military people have uniformly been very displeased with the round.
Hardly. As with any proposed change in the military there will be supporters and detractors on both sides; the overall findings of the US military have been in support of NATO adopting the 5.7x28mm round, despite the disgruntled opinions of a very few (such as you have published above). The reality is that the Ordnance Officers (and NCOs) involved in the testing/endorsing of the 5.7x28mm round for adoption by NATO were uniformly pleased with it's performance, as anyone reading their reports may ascertain for themselves.

For what it's worth, my only interest in this discussion has to do with the selection of a single cartridge for multiple platforms as applied to use in the military. I personally think this is a good thing, and (apparently) the military thinks that the 5.7x28mm round fills the bill.

There is a rumor going around that Glock will possibly unveil a pistol chambered for the 5.7x28mm round at the next SHOT Show. As I understand it (rumors are sketchy at best when it comes to details) the conversion to 5.7x28mm is about as simple as swapping the barrel and magazine. If this is the case, expect to see more countries adopt the 5.7x28mm round for their police and armed forces.

Last edited by Old_Writer; 11/16/11.

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Originally Posted by P_Weed

But I still feel that it is NOT that big of a deal.

I don't think there is that much danger of many people getting "sucked in" and being mis-lead by choosing and acquiring 5.7 ammunition & firearms un-aware of 'whatever' potential/inherent shortcomings they may possess. They could do worse.


Actually, despite being the guy who kicked over this hornet's nest to begin with, I don't think it's that big a deal, either. In this we are pretty much muy sympatico. With one small exception.

Unfortunately, in the past month or so I've stumbled across four people (3 in Wisconsin, where CCW is the new and raging fad among gun folks, one in TX) who have little or no experience in shooting and none whatsoever in defensive shooting, military service, or LE training, all of whom were extolling the virtues of their new 5.7mm pistols, which they were "sold" by a gunshop guru or internet ninja buddy.

What is the likelihood that one of these newbies is going to use his/her 5.7 in a defensive shooting? Infinitesimal. As such, it's not that big a deal.

But the facts about this round's poor bench testing performance and real-world shooting performance over the past 10+ years are not happy or good, as I have accounted above. I don't think I am being biased here, I'm simply passing on the results of a lot of very serious people who live at the sharp end of the spear. And as such I feel some obligation to point out that that record.


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Old_Writer... thanks for that list. I've not followed closely recent developments in adoption of the 5.7mm cartridge but will do so. I will be happy to learn it if they've found a new bullet(s) that have overcome the glaring deficiencies of the round in previous testing and experience.

Of the agencies you've listed, it will be interesting to see which ones have adopted the 5.7 as a submachinegun round and which as a pistol round. For instance, I am aware that the U.S. Secret Service has had 5.7mm SMG's for a number of years, but the standard round for pistols is NOT 5.7 as of my last contact. I'll be looking into this further. Thanks for the list.

Your comment about ordnance people here in the US being pleased with the 5.7 intrigues me. I've got some calls out and will be looking into this as well.

Could you do me the favor of citing a source for these favorable reports by ordnance people? I'd like to read them. These were NATO ordnance boards, not US military boards, I presume?

Finally, I'm intrigued by your reference to a common round for pistol and rifle. This concept has always puzzled me, as the experience of our military, and that of a number of other countries around the world, has been that a common pistol-rifle round is a compromise that satisfies the requirements of neither, but I'm open to the discussion.



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Doc,

Just like anything, we look for data that supports our own beliefs. As I've said before, I frequent several 5.7 message boards, and the more time goes by, the more people rave about this thing. I've seen countless tests and first hand accounts of what this thing will do. It appears this doc roberts guy doesn't like the 5.7, and that's fine. There are a whole bunch of people who like it...and the number is growing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FN_Five-seven

And this one:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FN_5.7%C3%9728mm#History

Excerpts of note:

The 5.7�28mm cartridge was designed in response to NATO requests for a replacement for the 9�19mm Parabellum cartridge.[9][11] According to the NATO requirement, the new cartridge was to have greater range, accuracy, and terminal performance than the 9�19mm cartridge.[21] Additionally, it was to be capable of penetrating body armor.[21] FN Herstal responded to the NATO requirement by developing the 5.7�28mm cartridge and two associated weapons: the FN P90 personal defense weapon (PDW) and FN Five-seven pistol.[9]

and

In 2002 and 2003, NATO conducted a series of tests with the intention of standardizing a PDW cartridge as a replacement for the 9�19mm Parabellum cartridge.[11] The tests compared the relative merits of the 5.7�28mm cartridge and the HK 4.6�30mm cartridge, which was created by German small arms manufacturer Heckler & Koch as a competitor to the 5.7�28mm.[11] The results of the NATO tests were analyzed by a group formed of experts from Canada, France, the United Kingdom, and the United States, and the group's conclusion was that the 5.7�28mm was "undoubtedly" the more efficient cartridge.[11]


So, "a group of experts from canada, france, the UK, and the US" think that the 5.7 is superior in performance to the 9mm and the 4.6. But, doc Roberts disagrees. Ok.

I don't carry a 5.7 simply because of it's size, but I would love to. I wouldn't feel handicapped or undergunned in the least carrying it. Matter of fact, I'd choose it if I could. We all know shot placement is king; I could probably put 3 shots of 5.7 into a small target in the same time it took me to fire 1 or 2 .40 shots.

I know we'll keep butting heads on this one, so we'll have to agree to disagree. I think as more time goes by, we'll see who wins. My money is on the 5.7.


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Originally Posted by dryflyelk


I know we'll keep butting heads on this one, so we'll have to agree to disagree. I think as more time goes by, we'll see who wins. My money is on the 5.7.



I don't think we're butting heads in any negative way, and I'm open to arguments in favor of the 5.7mm because I would quite honestly like to have somebody convince me that the 5.7 is in fact a viable service cartridge, if this is indeed true.

I need to read/hear more from the ordnance/ballistics experts in Canada, the U.K., and France. I know nothing of the testing done in the latter two countries, but I personally know experts from Western Canada who have tested and rejected the 5.7mm repeatedly for their agencies. The RCMP have rejected it at least twice.

Like I said, I've got messages out to a number of people in the industry on this question, as it seems that the assertions I've read on this thread indicate I've got a blind spot here. I'm going to correct that blind spot, and if my current and previous position needs to change based on real evidence, I'm going to change it.


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Originally Posted by dryflyelk
The tests compared the relative merits of the 5.7�28mm cartridge and the HK 4.6�30mm cartridge, ...

So, "a group of experts from canada, france, the UK, and the US" think that the 5.7 is superior in performance to the 9mm and the 4.6. But, doc Roberts disagrees. Ok.


Does that reference say they tested it against the 9mm? Because what you pasted doesn't explicitly state that.

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You're right, rufus. I couldn't quite tell, to be honest. The reason for the tests, however, was to find a replacement for the 9mm, and the 5.7 and 4.6 were candidates. After the testing, the 5.7 won - and since they decided to go with it, I'd assume that means it was better in their testing than the 9mm. I'd like to know more and see how those tests went down.

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People thought the 223 was under powered and now people are touting what is basically a 22Mag? Sorry but for defeating body armor I can see it having a purpose but for defense no way, unless I typically have to go up against armored criminals. And even then one or two 45 slugs to the armor is generally enough to make him slow down enough to tap him in the head with the third round.

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Originally Posted by dryflyelk
You're right, rufus. I couldn't quite tell, to be honest. The reason for the tests, however, was to find a replacement for the 9mm, and the 5.7 and 4.6 were candidates. After the testing, the 5.7 won - and since they decided to go with it, I'd assume that means it was better in their testing than the 9mm. I'd like to know more and see how those tests went down.


dfe... you and me both!!!

I just got an email back from a contact in the USSS. He states that the P90 PDW in 5.7mm was purchased by Secret Service based on "outside testing" for T&E and limited deployment, and that the P90 did not measure up to its advertised capabilities against armored and unarmored targets. As such, the USSS is phasing this weapon out.

Another source, a US military ordnance guy who trains and advises foreign govt's on weapons and ammo as part of his regular mission, replied to me by email and said that every Asian agency he is aware of who has used the P90/5.7mm as a primary wepaon during combat (his emphasis, not mine) has dropped it in favor of larger caliber weapons.

I'll post more feedback as it comes in.

I have not heard anything yet about use of 5.7mm in standard-issue sidearms yet.





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Originally Posted by dryflyelk
Doc,

Just like anything, we look for data that supports our own beliefs. As I've said before, I frequent several 5.7 message boards, and the more time goes by, the more people rave about this thing. I've seen countless tests and first hand accounts of what this thing will do. It appears this doc roberts guy doesn't like the 5.7, and that's fine. There are a whole bunch of people who like it...and the number is growing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FN_Five-seven

And this one:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FN_5.7%C3%9728mm#History

Excerpts of note:

The 5.7�28mm cartridge was designed in response to NATO requests for a replacement for the 9�19mm Parabellum cartridge.[9][11] According to the NATO requirement, the new cartridge was to have greater range, accuracy, and terminal performance than the 9�19mm cartridge.[21] Additionally, it was to be capable of penetrating body armor.[21] FN Herstal responded to the NATO requirement by developing the 5.7�28mm cartridge and two associated weapons: the FN P90 personal defense weapon (PDW) and FN Five-seven pistol.[9]

and

In 2002 and 2003, NATO conducted a series of tests with the intention of standardizing a PDW cartridge as a replacement for the 9�19mm Parabellum cartridge.[11] The tests compared the relative merits of the 5.7�28mm cartridge and the HK 4.6�30mm cartridge, which was created by German small arms manufacturer Heckler & Koch as a competitor to the 5.7�28mm.[11] The results of the NATO tests were analyzed by a group formed of experts from Canada, France, the United Kingdom, and the United States, and the group's conclusion was that the 5.7�28mm was "undoubtedly" the more efficient cartridge.[11]



Searched the Wikipedia footnotes, authors' names, and so forth. The cited articles are gun magazine pieces, not primary or even secondary sources, and the authors did not cite their sources for the opinions expressed and quoted.

I'm still looking for the reports mentioned.


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Originally Posted by P_Weed
Warning:

)))))))))))) DON"T DRINK THE DOCROCKET KOOLAID! ((((((((((((

I'm not.

smile
Is that anything like drinking the water in Mexico...'cause right now I could use some intestinal movement sick Oh, that was probably an over-share grin grin

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TMI, dood!!! TMI!!!
grin


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Just for the record, the 5.7FN in the FNH pistol is not my "go to" choice for a CCW or night stand gun. That choice goes to a 1911 pistol in .45 ACP w/ HP ammo. You might say that I don't consider it "awesome" or possessing some mystical killing power.
But I do consider it and the .22 RF Magnum when fired from a 5-6 inch barrel handgun far superior to the 9mm FMJ round for such work.
That comes from seeing them work on both the street and in the field, over and over. The 9mm, from a handgun, with FMJ ammo has never performed nearly as well.
And I do believe the FNH pistol has some very good points. It is the gun I've found in that weight class that I can shoot well. It's a very light gun for those who refuse to carry a heavy handgun. It has lots of protection from corrosion, and it's very easy to maintain, etc. E


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Good points, Eremicus.

FWIW, the guys I've talked to who have enjoyed success with 9mm NATO FMJ ammo in the Sandbox have been employing double-taps to the noggin. Just sayin'.


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Originally Posted by bea175
First i believe the pistol is way over priced and second it wouldn't be my first or second choice for a self defense carry weapon. I wouldn't minded owning one for groundhogs and squirrel hunting.
it would be a good fiddler crab gun with the proper optics.


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This sounds oh so familiar....

I will take the opinion of Dr. Roberts at face value. There is no one in the industry more respected than he. The 5.7 is a niche weapon, designed to punch through body armor, nothing more. it is absolutely not a replacement for any of the commonly carried service rounds.

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