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A 5.7 would be a smokin' IDPA gun, if only it were legal. Ah well...

Anybody wanna take a sternum hit with a vest on (no plates) from a 460 Rowland?


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I never had the slightest urge to buy one of the 5.7X28 handguns or carbines.
I don't care how fast that 31 grains is going, it is not going to be as effective as a heavier, larger caliber bullet.
If getting multiple hits is all that important, buy a freaking air soft gun. A fellow should be working on putting one, maybe two effective bullets on target, instead of spray and pray.


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Originally Posted by DocRocket
Good points, Eremicus.

FWIW, the guys I've talked to who have enjoyed success with 9mm NATO FMJ ammo in the Sandbox have been employing double-taps to the noggin. Just sayin'.



I'm afraid that DocRocket has it correct in reguards to the 5.7



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So how does the 5.7 do with expanding bullets ??


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Originally Posted by tex_n_cal
So how does the 5.7 do with expanding bullets ??
Probably limits penetration quite a bit.

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i double posted this on this thread and the other one:
to borrow from an article by david fortier on military small arms magazine referenced in the wikipedia article:

5.7x28mm
In the 1980s, lightweight personal body armor was becoming more prevalent among Soviet units. While these flak jackets were easily penetrated by rifle fire, they were able to defeat 9x19mm ball rounds. So there was growing concern over NATO�s 9x19mm weapons being rendered obsolete. Fabrique Nationale recognized this threat and began working on a solution in the 1980s, an effort that picked up steam when NATO established the CRISAT target--a 1.6mm titanium plate and 20 Kevlar folds--as a penetration standard. FN responded with a small-caliber, high-velocity cartridge called the 5.7x28mm.




A small bottlenecked cartridge with a 28mm-long case, it�s topped with a .224-inch-diameter projectile. The standard military SS190 ball loading features a 31-grain armor-piercing FMJ-BT projectile, and there are tracer, subsonic and practice rounds, too--as well as commercial 40-grain sporting ammunition (SS196 and SS197). (Editor�s note: FN and ATK, parent of Federal Cartridge, recently signed a distribution agreement under which ATK would become the exclusive distributor of commercial sporting ammo in the U.S.; the restricted law enforcement and military ammunition remains an FNH USA product.)




The cartridge�s overall length is 40.5mm, and it weighs half what a 9x19mm cartridge does. To cut through soft body armor, the .224-diameter SS190 projectile incorporates a cone-shaped steel penetrator sitting atop an aluminum core surrounded by a steel jacket.




Velocity of the 5.7x28mm SS190 ball load from a P90 PDW�s 10.2-inch barrel is 2,346 fps. Fired from an FN Five-seveN service pistol it still clocks a respectable 2,133 fps. Despite the high muzzle velocity, recoil is approximately 30 percent less than a 9x19mm. The 5.7x28mm is capable of defeating the CRISAT target at 200 meters

this intrigues me on several counts. One, talking to a special forces type a couple of years ago he confirmed the effectiveness of a Vmax hornady bullet in the 5.56 that i had got a glimpse of one soldier loading into a rifle via the t.v.
I had experimented with these and they are nasty bullets.
two: The velocity of the pistol is similar to that of one of the so called AR15 pistols, but in a smaller package.
Then i remember something from a number of years ago where somebody was fulling with as i remember either a CZ or a 1911 platform with a necked down to .224 40s&w casing. Similar velocities, and you could put a A.P. bullet in it. Sound Familiar?
I will have to rethink this caliber, because with the RIGHT bullets i think it would be flat destructive, particularly with the flat ballistics easy shooting and large mags.

I might add try some vmax loaded in .223 and shoot some steel plates. Goes right through


Edited by RoninPhx (2 minutes 15 seconds ago)


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Originally Posted by Mannlicher

I don't care how fast that 31 grains is going, it is not going to be as effective as a heavier, larger caliber bullet.
If getting multiple hits is all that important, buy a freaking air soft gun. A fellow should be working on putting one, maybe two effective bullets on target, instead of spray and pray.


So, following this logic, I should be hunting elk with a .45 handgun, right? Since a 165 grain .30 bullet will never be as effective as a 230 grain, .45 caliber bullet?

Ever seen a rabbit or other varmint get hit with a 50 grain bulle t going about 4,000 fps? Hint: there's not much left over.

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The 5.7 doesn't go 4000 FPS. Also we are not talking elk hunting here, stay on track



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No, it doesn't. And no, we're not.

The principle of the 5.7 is the same, however. It's foolish to say that speed is not important and doesn't make a difference. The 5.7 bullet is typically traveling more than 2X's as fast as the typical handgun calibers.

That can mean different things depending on the bullet. If you want fast, violent expansion, you can get it. If you want penetration, you can get it. No, you're not going to have tissue "crushed" by the diameter of the bullet, but there are other benefits speed gives you that a slower bullet cannot.

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A 220 Swift makes a wonderful elk rifle - as long as you're confident of a head shot.


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So does anybody here reload for one?


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Here's a QL calc, with the 40gr VMax and Power Pistol. 2000 fps looks possible from a 5" bbl.

Code
Cartridge          : 5.7 x 28 FN
Bullet             : .224, 40, Hornady V-MAX BT 22241
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 1.594 inch or 40.49 mm
Barrel Length      : 5.0 inch or 127.0 mm
Powder             : Alliant POWER PISTOL

Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 1.538% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step    Fill. Charge   Vel.  Energy   Pmax   Pmuz  Prop.Burnt B_Time
 %       %    Grains   fps   ft.lbs    psi    psi      %        ms

-15.4   74     5.50   1755     274   34511  12604     94.9    0.417
-13.8   76     5.60   1783     282   35841  12877     95.5    0.409
-12.3   77     5.70   1811     291   37209  13146     96.0    0.402
-10.8   78     5.80   1838     300   38616  13411     96.5    0.394
-09.2   80     5.90   1865     309   40063  13672     96.9    0.387
-07.7   81     6.00   1892     318   41550  13929     97.4    0.379
-06.2   82     6.10   1919     327   43079  14180     97.7    0.373  ! Near Maximum !
-04.6   84     6.20   1946     336   44651  14426     98.1    0.366  ! Near Maximum !
-03.1   85     6.30   1973     346   46267  14668     98.4    0.359  ! Near Maximum !
-01.5   86     6.40   2000     355   47928  14903     98.7    0.353  ! Near Maximum !
+00.0   88     6.50   2026     365   49635  15133     99.0    0.347  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+01.5   89     6.60   2053     374   51389  15356     99.2    0.341  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+03.1   90     6.70   2079     384   53193  15573     99.4    0.335  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+04.6   92     6.80   2105     394   55046  15785     99.6    0.329  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+06.2   93     6.90   2131     403   56951  15989     99.7    0.323  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+07.7   94     7.00   2157     413   58909  16186     99.9    0.318  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!


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Doc:

Just got this from a SEAL of my acquaintance (blood kin) re the 5.7x28.

Quote
No USSOCOM unit at any level would use that round for any reason. 5.56 and 7.62 is bread and butter of the service components. By widest dissemination and fielding today: 5.56, 7.62, 9mm, .50, 40mm, .300wm.

These calibers are under industry contracts for many years to come. Even if substantial research proved to DOD that a new round was the best flavor ice cream, required changes in industry would be far too costly in current economic environment and take decades to field. There are plenty of evil tip colors for use in various application of these rounds. No need to speculate the very improbable arrival of European calibers.

That's been sanitized, post away. I imagine it's fine for whatever the bullpup P90 is used for by euro swats - small caliber assaults. 5.56 is a very small round, but does a good job of tumbling through tissue & causing more damage than an AKs 7.62. From my perspective, most any round will work as well as any other with a few accurate placements. I find the massive arguments resulting from rampant misinformation masquerading as fact on many gun forums interesting; I imagine you do as well.


I have no idea what was sanitized out of that.

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Originally Posted by dryflyelk
Originally Posted by Mannlicher

I don't care how fast that 31 grains is going, it is not going to be as effective as a heavier, larger caliber bullet.
If getting multiple hits is all that important, buy a freaking air soft gun. A fellow should be working on putting one, maybe two effective bullets on target, instead of spray and pray.


So, following this logic, I should be hunting elk with a .45 handgun, right? Since a 165 grain .30 bullet will never be as effective as a 230 grain, .45 caliber bullet?

Ever seen a rabbit or other varmint get hit with a 50 grain bulle t going about 4,000 fps? Hint: there's not much left over.


apples and oranges....you wanna take a hit from my 416 Rem or a 5.7 even with body armor you ain't going to survive a 416 Rem hit


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Originally Posted by dryflyelk
No, it doesn't. And no, we're not.

The principle of the 5.7 is the same, however. It's foolish to say that speed is not important and doesn't make a difference. The 5.7 bullet is typically traveling more than 2X's as fast as the typical handgun calibers.

That can mean different things depending on the bullet. If you want fast, violent expansion, you can get it. If you want penetration, you can get it. No, you're not going to have tissue "crushed" by the diameter of the bullet, but there are other benefits speed gives you that a slower bullet cannot.



Just a slower 5.56 with a lighter bullet, not am improvement at all IMHO



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It's not supposed to be a 5.56 and it's not supposed to be an improvement on the 5.56, so I agree.

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Originally Posted by DocRocket
Copied from a post by Dr. Roberts:
10/13/11

"Several papers have described the incredibly poor terminal performance of the 5.7 x 28 mm projectiles fired by the FN P90:

His full title is Dr. Gary K. Roberts, DDS (note that he is a dentist, not a trauma surgeon). I am not aware of any credible independent source online that clearly acknowledges DocGKR as an authority on the subject of wound ballistics, let alone gunshot wounds in actual human bodies.

He spends a lot of time posting on the internet, and he definitely has a cult-like following on a few internet forums, but that doesn't count for anything. He has certainly done extensive testing with bullets in ballistic gelatin, and some LE/military organizations have consulted him over the years, but that hardly puts him head-and-shoulders above the other individuals that are typically mentioned in these sorts of discussions. For example, the 28-year veteran of Houston, PD SWAT that I mentioned earlier, who has actually shot people with guns (including the P90), and served three terms as president of the TTPOA (Texas Tactical Police Officers Association).

Furthermore, the individual in question (DocGKR) has not even tested any 5.7x28mm load introduced in the last 15-20 years. What he thinks about an ammo type not offered to civilians (SS190) or an ammo type discontinued 20 years ago (SS90) is utterly irrelevant to a discussion on current 5.7x28mm loads.

Not to mention, two days after the Fort Hood shooting occurred, this same individual was already touting the early media reports that said the killer was stopped by a female police officer who had been shot with 5.7x28mm rounds.

Of course, we now know that the early news reports were inaccurate and that is not what actually happened; despite her bravery, the female police officer in question was incapacitated (and nearly died) from a hit to the leg, and the killer was actually stopped by a second (male) police officer while she was lying on the ground severely wounded.

All of this despite the fact that DocGKR had never even tested either of the ammunition types used by the Fort Hood shooter (SS192, SS197SR); not to mention the misinformation campaign (with regards to this caliber) that he has been pushing for years on forums all over the internet.

More recently, he tried to discount one of EA's 5.7x28mm loads (which he has never even tested) by simply scrutinizing a blurry photo of it that he found on the internet. The man is clearly not impartial; he made up his mind on this caliber about 15 years ago when he shot gelatin with the SS90 prototype cartridge.

Basically, what you are trying to do is use a completely erroneous appeal to authority (http://grammar.about.com/od/ab/g/appealauthterm.htm); in other words, a fallacy in which a rhetor seeks to persuade an audience not by giving evidence but by appealing to the respect people have for the famous. What's humorous is that the individual you are trying to use in such a manner does not even meet the notability criteria for his own Wikipedia article, and I explained above why that is the case.

Nevertheless, let's assume for a moment that DocGKR is definitely a highly respected authority on wound ballistics (i.e. shooting gelatin), and he dislikes SS190 based on his experience shooting gelatin with it. In that case, your argument would still be completely devoid of actual evidence (forum stories don't count and DocGKR has posted no actual evidence of any sort), and your "authority" on the subject is still basing his opinion on ancient testing done with a simulant (gelatin) and outdated ammunition (SS90 and SS190).

Anyway, you likely haven't even read any of those (ancient) papers. Half of them discuss a 23-grain plastic-core prototype cartridge (SS90) that was discontinued 20 years ago.

The two or three other papers on that list (discussing SS190) are irrelevant from the get-go, in light of the massive amount of verifiable information available on the caliber's performance in actual human bodies (as opposed to a simulant).

Papers aside, nothing else in that post was substantiated in any way. Even the picture in the post is extremely outdated (the projectile pictured is the SS90 prototype).



Quote
Unfortunately, the 5.7mm has had some pretty bad documented failures that in my opinion and that of others far more expert than I would likely not have happened if the round in question had been a 9mm 124 gr JHP or 40 S&W 185 gr JHP, or equivalent in other generally accepted service calibers.

Prove it. Don't cite internet forum posts, either, because that isn't proof of anything.



Quote
I know there are agencies that endorse and even issue the 5.7mm, but these aren't agencies that get into a lot of gunfights. The agencies that DO shoot a lot of bad guys don't endorse the 5.7mm.

Completely false. The first two U.S. agencies to issue the P90, for example, were the Houston Police Department and Richland County Sheriff's Department. See also:

http://www.hendonpub.com/resources/articlearchive/details.aspx?ID=309

I concede that the P90 is not all things to all people. However, for what I do, as a SWAT officer in a major city, it�s a great weapon.

<snip>

The 5.7mm ball produces a wound cavity about the size and shape of the best 9mm 115 grain JHP +P+, except the peak occurs at a deeper penetration. In the one shooting we had with the P90, the bullet performed well. In fact, the bullet performed exactly as it was designed. The autopsy provided detailed information about the wound cavity and travel of the bullets.

<snip>

If you operate in an environment like the one I operate in, you can�t go wrong with a P90 slung at the low-ready.


-- Sandy Wall of HPD (see below)



http://warriorsos.blogspot.com/2010/10/how-to-win-gunfight-by-sandy-wall.html

Sandy Wall retired from Houston Police Department after 28-years. He served for 22 years on SWAT, and was a three-term president with the Texas Tactical Police Officer Association (TTPOA). He is currently the Training Director for Safariland Training Group. Sandy is the founder of the Less Lethal Solutions, Inc. and the inventor of "The Wall Banger."



Quote
But as Dr. Roberts points out, in addition to its marginal performance in gelatin tests, the 5.7 has not had a great record in actual gunfights/OIS with agencies that have used it.

Again, prove it. DocGKR was just recycling hearsay in the same manner you are.



Quote
But the facts about this round's poor bench testing performance and real-world shooting performance over the past 10+ years are not happy or good, as I have accounted above.

The only actual credible accounts of shootings with the 5.7x28mm would be:

- The Fort Hood shooting, which is very well-documented now (see some of the first-hand accounts, such as the one I posted below).

- A handful of U.S. SWAT shootings like the one that was described in the Houston SWAT writeup on the P90 (by a 28-year veteran of HPD).

- Dozens upon dozens of news reports on shootings (mostly fatal, and mostly done with the Five-seveN pistol, aka "matapolicias") from the Mexican Drug War, and nearby countries like Colombia and the Dominican Republic. The news accounts from Mexico are supported by crime scene photos showing 5.7x28mm casings and/or the deceased victims themselves (many of those are graphic so I won't post them here).

All of the shootings listed above clearly indicate that the 5.7x28mm is at least as effective as the common pistol calibers. The hearsay on this caliber that appears on internet forums is always completely unsubstantiated and unverifiable; people have been recycling these stories for years now, and you still can't trace them to anything more credible than vague posts on an internet forum.

As for the Fort Hood shooting, being armed does not make an individual impervious or magically resistant to bullets; the wounds (and their effects) are not different. As for "fleeing," the soldiers at Fort Hood were highly motivated during that attack, one way or the other; all of them were very intent on surviving and helping others survive. Many of the victims described feeling the effects of adrenalin during the shooting. Two of the victims even charged the shooter with chairs (according to the trial testimony, both were killed with shots to the chest before they could reach him).

The female police officer that responded to the shooting was also intent on stopping the shooter but by all reports, was incapacitated (and nearly died) by her leg wounds. The bullet shattered her femur into "hundreds of bone fragments" according to her personal comments on her blog, as well as other news sources. According to her blog, she subsequently underwent a complete knee replacement operation and she won't be able to do patrol work anymore.

All of this information is corroborated by a number of witnesses including Munley herself, on both her blog and in her trial testimony. See:

http://sgtmunley.blogspot.com/

I was given a second chance at life. I was also fortunate to not lose my leg. The awesome surgeons were able to do an arterial graph and repair my femoral artery. But for a couple of days, there were unsure about the outcome and if I was going to be able to keep my leg at all.

I stay in a lot of pain because the bottom of my femor is blown into hundreds of bone fragments that are pushed into my muscle tissue and until the surgery, they will not be removed.



http://www.starnewsonline.com/article/20091202/articles/912029944

Sgt. Kim Munley, who helped stop the shooter Nov. 5 at Fort Hood, Texas, will have to get an artificial knee, which means she will not be able to return to street patrol duty.


http://www.kasa.com/dpps/military/army/Fort-Hood-hero-faces-more-surgery-_3228588

Munley underwent total knee replacement surgery in January and still walks with a cane. She said the most difficult part of her recovery has been learning to rely on others.



Quote
I just got an email back from a contact in the USSS. He states that the P90 PDW in 5.7mm was purchased by Secret Service based on "outside testing" for T&E and limited deployment, and that the P90 did not measure up to its advertised capabilities against armored and unarmored targets. As such, the USSS is phasing this weapon out.

Wrong.

1. The P90 was extensively tested by the U.S. Secret Service prior to adoption.

2. The P90 was never in "limited" deployment. It has been the primary weapon of the ERT for over 10 years.

3. There is no credible evidence that the Secret Service has stopped using the P90 altogether. Some have said that the P90s are moving from the ERT to other branches of the Secret Service, but there is no credible evidence for even that claim.



Quote
Another source, a US military ordnance guy who trains and advises foreign govt's on weapons and ammo as part of his regular mission, replied to me by email and said that every Asian agency he is aware of who has used the P90/5.7mm as a primary wepaon during combat (his emphasis, not mine) has dropped it in favor of larger caliber weapons.

Actually, you got that claim from DocGKR on the M4carbine.net forums, and it was (as always) ambiguous and completely unsubstantiated.



Quote
Searched the Wikipedia footnotes, authors' names, and so forth. The cited articles are gun magazine pieces

Jane's Information Group is a far cry from "gun magazine pieces."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jane's_Information_Group

However, even a gun magazine would be more credible than the internet hearsay you've been citing all throughout this thread.



Originally Posted by The_Real_Hawkeye
Originally Posted by tex_n_cal
So how does the 5.7 do with expanding bullets ??
Probably limits penetration quite a bit.

No, it doesn't. There are numerous expanding 5.7x28mm loads available now that penetrate 12+ inches in ballistic gelatin. For example:

http://www.eliteammunition.net/f/5.7x28mm_Elite_Ammunition_ProtecTOR_II.wmv



Quote
I will be happy to learn it if they've found a new bullet(s) that have overcome the glaring deficiencies of the round in previous testing and experience.

www.eliteammunition.net

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Originally Posted by eh76
Originally Posted by dryflyelk
Originally Posted by Mannlicher

I don't care how fast that 31 grains is going, it is not going to be as effective as a heavier, larger caliber bullet.
If getting multiple hits is all that important, buy a freaking air soft gun. A fellow should be working on putting one, maybe two effective bullets on target, instead of spray and pray.


So, following this logic, I should be hunting elk with a .45 handgun, right? Since a 165 grain .30 bullet will never be as effective as a 230 grain, .45 caliber bullet?

Ever seen a rabbit or other varmint get hit with a 50 grain bulle t going about 4,000 fps? Hint: there's not much left over.


apples and oranges....you wanna take a hit from my 416 Rem or a 5.7 even with body armor you ain't going to survive a 416 Rem hit


Let's see, a .416 Rem or a 5.7X28 to hunt elephant in Africa? Decisions, decisions. grin


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Originally Posted by derby_dude
Originally Posted by eh76
Originally Posted by dryflyelk
Originally Posted by Mannlicher

I don't care how fast that 31 grains is going, it is not going to be as effective as a heavier, larger caliber bullet.
If getting multiple hits is all that important, buy a freaking air soft gun. A fellow should be working on putting one, maybe two effective bullets on target, instead of spray and pray.


So, following this logic, I should be hunting elk with a .45 handgun, right? Since a 165 grain .30 bullet will never be as effective as a 230 grain, .45 caliber bullet?

Ever seen a rabbit or other varmint get hit with a 50 grain bulle t going about 4,000 fps? Hint: there's not much left over.


apples and oranges....you wanna take a hit from my 416 Rem or a 5.7 even with body armor you ain't going to survive a 416 Rem hit


Let's see, a .416 Rem or a 5.7X28 to hunt elephant in Africa? Decisions, decisions. grin


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BT927 brings the hammer.

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