|
|
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 923
Campfire Regular
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 923 |
...and lolol @ the expert dentist. That's classic. Maybe we can now find the effects of the 5.7 on a bicuspid or incisor?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 18,005
Campfire Ranger
|
|
OP
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 18,005 |
Thanks, BT927.
I was frankly amazed at your post. Your dismissal of Dr. Roberts' work and reputation tells me two things: first, that you have no idea what Dr. Roberts does or has done in the very real world, and second, based on your snide comments on his work and reputation, that you and I are not likely to see eye to eye on anything, at any time. You see, Dr. Roberts is a real person, as am I, and he and I are colleagues and friends, and we have worked with and continue to work with a lot of other real people who do real things in the real world, much of which can't be specifically talked about on an internet forum. Sorry about that.
I have been advised by wiser heads here on the 'Fire to not try to foist my opinions, and those of my ballistician colleagues, upon this forum. I have ignored them at my peril, it seems, and in this case stepped into a hornet's nest I was unprepared for. I didn't have all my facts and citations ready, and I'm not likely to have unless and until I spend a significant amount of time gathering them, time which I don't have at present.
So for now I must concede that I can't refute your "hammer", as dryflyelk refers to your post.
As such I am humbly withdrawing any assertions I have made about the wonderful 5.7mm round heretofore in this thread or on any other, and you and others who stand to profit monetarily from the success of that round are more than welcome to do so as far as I'm concerned. It won't harm me or mine a whit.
Last edited by DocRocket; 11/17/11.
"I'm gonna have to science the schit out of this." Mark Watney, Sol 59, Mars
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424
Campfire Sage
|
|
Campfire Sage
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424 |
Here's a QL calc, with the 40gr VMax and Power Pistol. 2000 fps looks possible from a 5" bbl.
Cartridge : 5.7 x 28 FN
Bullet : .224, 40, Hornady V-MAX BT 22241
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 1.594 inch or 40.49 mm
Barrel Length : 5.0 inch or 127.0 mm
Powder : Alliant POWER PISTOL
Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 1.538% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !
Step Fill. Charge Vel. Energy Pmax Pmuz Prop.Burnt B_Time
% % Grains fps ft.lbs psi psi % ms
-15.4 74 5.50 1755 274 34511 12604 94.9 0.417
-13.8 76 5.60 1783 282 35841 12877 95.5 0.409
-12.3 77 5.70 1811 291 37209 13146 96.0 0.402
-10.8 78 5.80 1838 300 38616 13411 96.5 0.394
-09.2 80 5.90 1865 309 40063 13672 96.9 0.387
-07.7 81 6.00 1892 318 41550 13929 97.4 0.379
-06.2 82 6.10 1919 327 43079 14180 97.7 0.373 ! Near Maximum !
-04.6 84 6.20 1946 336 44651 14426 98.1 0.366 ! Near Maximum !
-03.1 85 6.30 1973 346 46267 14668 98.4 0.359 ! Near Maximum !
-01.5 86 6.40 2000 355 47928 14903 98.7 0.353 ! Near Maximum !
+00.0 88 6.50 2026 365 49635 15133 99.0 0.347 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+01.5 89 6.60 2053 374 51389 15356 99.2 0.341 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+03.1 90 6.70 2079 384 53193 15573 99.4 0.335 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+04.6 92 6.80 2105 394 55046 15785 99.6 0.329 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+06.2 93 6.90 2131 403 56951 15989 99.7 0.323 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+07.7 94 7.00 2157 413 58909 16186 99.9 0.318 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Thank you sir. This thing can't be any more quirky than a Hornet or a .17? Does anybody agree? I want one. Travis
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 52,680
Campfire Kahuna
|
|
Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 52,680 |
I have enuf problems...I have a Hornet and a K-Hornet......
Liberalism is a mental disorder that leads to social disease.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 18,005
Campfire Ranger
|
|
OP
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 18,005 |
Post deleted in interest of civility.
Last edited by DocRocket; 11/17/11.
"I'm gonna have to science the schit out of this." Mark Watney, Sol 59, Mars
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 179
Campfire Member
|
|
Campfire Member
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 179 |
That's it! My new grizzly gun will be a 5.7!!
Glockin' Bob
I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them." -- Thomas Jefferson
"
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 1,487
Campfire Regular
|
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 1,487 |
If there's access to the internet in the here-after, I'm guessing that Jack O'Connor and Elmer Keith are having a good laugh about now.
The blindness from subjectivity is indistinguishable from the darkness of ignorance.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 32,044
Campfire 'Bwana
|
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 32,044 |
Speed does kill, but it also has to have mass to do so. You take a large cal heavy bullet and push it at the same speed as smaller cal lighter bullet and the heavier bullet will win every time. You just can beat the law of physics. The 5.7 has its place, but I'm just not sold on it being a better defense weapon than the 357 magnum or 45 ACP. Would you rather take a hit from the 5.7 or a round from Ma Deuce
A Doe walks out of the woods today and says, that is the last time I'm going to do that for Two Bucks.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 923
Campfire Regular
|
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 923 |
Oh, c'mon doc. Don't back down that easy. No need to back away. Sometimes it's fun to banter just for the heck of it. I do it all the time. It's like a debate class back in high school. Point, counter point, all in fun.
For most of us this stuff is just theory anyway. Hopefully, I'll never have to find out which round has the best stopping power, and I hope you don't have to, either.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 18,005
Campfire Ranger
|
|
OP
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 18,005 |
dfe... no thanks. I didn't have my ducks in a row when I started this thread, and that's not how I do things. I can probably counter most of Newbie's points pretty substantially, but I have a day job and a night job right now.
As you say, it's mostly just theory. But a good part of what I do/teach/advise isn't theory at all, but involves real blood and guts and stuff. So I have to take it seriously.
Like I said, I'm happy to find out any round works better than advertised. I started this thread using old data and I'm not gonna continue debating until I've got my facts up to date. Don't care if I was right or wrong before, but I for damn sure want to be right now.
"I'm gonna have to science the schit out of this." Mark Watney, Sol 59, Mars
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 923
Campfire Regular
|
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 923 |
Well, good on ya. If I really had to advise others or teach those in the line of fire what to use, it could my opinions would be completely different. For me, it is theory. For many, it's not- it's serious stuff and could mean life or death.
If you do find any more information, I'd love to hear it. It sounds like you've got some good sources.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 18,881
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 18,881 |
Deflave, I suggest you go to either the Ramshot Load Guide on their website or the similar site for Accurate Arms powders.
Both sites carry some specific warnings about reloading the 5.7X28 round. It is described as extremely critical or very touchy to load. I.e., it goes critical fast. It is recommended that one increase the load only .1 of a grain at a time and pay strict attention to the overal cartriage lenth with each of the bullets tested. I am planning to do some loading for it next spring, BTW.
A couple of things more. First, the brass is ejected forward about 30 degrees from dead ahead. It's thrown about 15 ft. or more. But once you find where it lands, it all lands very close together.
The other thing is that the 27 gr. load, which clocks about 2036 fps, hits about 6-7 inches higher at 25 yds. than does the 40 gr. V-Max load which clocks about 1740 fps. The gun has adjustable sights.
All that said, you can get a 40 gr. SRA Hornet SP to run as much as 1900 fps. plus according to the data.
In testing both ammo types on 2.5 gallon sealed, water jugs, both loads, even the non expanding HP 27 gr. load, affect the jug the same. Completely blows apart the front half of the jug and hits, on course, the back of the jug, some 12 inches of penetration. It doesn't exit.
In contrast, a soft lead, SWC, .357 load which clocks 940 fps., blows out the back half of the jug, not the front, and does exit. But just barely. The bullet can be found about 10 ft. away on the ground. E
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424
Campfire Sage
|
|
Campfire Sage
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424 |
Thanks E.
I really am curious if reloading for them is as big of a PITA as they say. I know when I first got into .17's, you'd have thought I was playing with enriched uranium they way some old timers spoke.
Travis
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual. Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit. My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 3,225
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 3,225 |
Very informative thread (as well as the "other" 5.7 thread). What I've learned is (according to the "experts here) is that my C96 Mauser (7.63x25mm) is the "perfect" deer handgun.
While I have actually killed a deer (and a couple of hogs) with the C96.....I never knew just how "deadly" it was. Always though, in my ignorance, that my .44 Magnum was more effective, but after this thread I have seen the light.
In fact, since the 5.7x28 is such a "deadly" deer/hog/human killer.....my 7.63x25 (which is a much heavier caliber) is probably overkill and should be reserved for game like big bears or moose!
I hate change, it's never for the better.... Grumpy Old Men
The more I learn, the more I realize how little I know
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 16,000
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 16,000 |
Very informative thread (as well as the "other" 5.7 thread). What I've learned is (according to the "experts here) is that my C96 Mauser (7.63x25mm) is the "perfect" deer handgun.
While I have actually killed a deer (and a couple of hogs) with the C96.....I never knew just how "deadly" it was. Always though, in my ignorance, that my .44 Magnum was more effective, but after this thread I have seen the light.
In fact, since the 5.7x28 is such a "deadly" deer/hog/human killer.....my 7.63x25 (which is a much heavier caliber) is probably overkill and should be reserved for game like big bears or moose! while i know the above was somewhat in jest, I think, needed to add this. I have a number of 7.62x25's running from the c96 to other pistols. I used that round to penetrate, yugo, ammo, the steel top of a 50gallon drum which then, the bullet, went through the air tank of a compressor, and bulged the other side. I was quite impressed. Now a number of years ago we went over, sammie, that is, a bunch of glock 19's for the iraqi police. They promptly sold them in the black market. Going back to the 7.62x25 round because it would penetrate car bodies better than the 9mm. So the old tokarov is still widely respected in various circles.
THE BIRTH PLACE OF GERONIMO
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 3,225
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 3,225 |
Yeah.....screwing young boys and blowing up your neigbors (and yourself) is held in high regard in "some" circles, but that doesn't make it right.
I hate change, it's never for the better.... Grumpy Old Men
The more I learn, the more I realize how little I know
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 18,005
Campfire Ranger
|
|
OP
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 18,005 |
Very informative thread (as well as the "other" 5.7 thread). What I've learned is (according to the "experts here) is that my C96 Mauser (7.63x25mm) is the "perfect" deer handgun.
While I have actually killed a deer (and a couple of hogs) with the C96.....I never knew just how "deadly" it was. Always though, in my ignorance, that my .44 Magnum was more effective, but after this thread I have seen the light.
In fact, since the 5.7x28 is such a "deadly" deer/hog/human killer.....my 7.63x25 (which is a much heavier caliber) is probably overkill and should be reserved for game like big bears or moose! while i know the above was somewhat in jest, I think, needed to add this. I have a number of 7.62x25's running from the c96 to other pistols. I used that round to penetrate, yugo, ammo, the steel top of a 50gallon drum which then, the bullet, went through the air tank of a compressor, and bulged the other side. I was quite impressed. Now a number of years ago we went over, sammie, that is, a bunch of glock 19's for the iraqi police. They promptly sold them in the black market. Going back to the 7.62x25 round because it would penetrate car bodies better than the 9mm. So the old tokarov is still widely respected in various circles. The fact that fast bullets penetrate armor better than slow bullets has been axiomatic since the 1920's, if not earlier. The Tok and the 5.7mmFN are predictably good armor-piercers. In the late days of the Cold War, both Soviet and NATO ordnance people were looking at their primary opponents being heavy infantry wearing ballistic armor, so armor-piercing bullets were the rage. But piercing armor is not the end-all and be-all of combat bullet effectiveness. Bear in mind that when our forces invaded Iraq, our primary battle bullet was the 5.56 62gr greentip armor piercing bullet. Our troops found out quickly that against unarmored personnel, these bullets were not ideally effective, basically just pencilling through the target's body and causing much less damage than the old 55 gr bullets we'd been using since Viet Nam. Sure, the haji's died from these wounds, but not quickly, and as such were able to continue to return fire on our guys. We have since transitioned to different bullet types that, while not as effective against armor, perform better on soft targets.
"I'm gonna have to science the schit out of this." Mark Watney, Sol 59, Mars
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 22,271
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 22,271 |
I can actually think of one good thing about the FN 57 pistol. Now, when a Glock guy claims the 1911 is obsolete, us 1911 guys can tell him some folks want to replace Glocks with FN's, and we can watch his head spin 
"...the designer of the .270 Ingwe cartridge!..."
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 22,271
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 22,271 |
[
But piercing armor is not the end-all and be-all of combat bullet effectiveness. Bear in mind that when our forces invaded Iraq, our primary battle bullet was the 5.56 62gr greentip armor piercing bullet. Our troops found out quickly that against unarmored personnel, these bullets were not ideally effective, basically just pencilling through the target's body and causing much less damage than the old 55 gr bullets we'd been using since Viet Nam.
And those 62 gr bullets were going a lot faster out of m16's, than any 5.7-launched bullets... But I do wish folks would quit saying the 5.7 is a challenge to reload, 'cause they're getting me intrigued, and I had really planned to go buy other stuff  If I did buy one, though it would probably be an AR57 upper for an AR15
"...the designer of the .270 Ingwe cartridge!..."
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 18,005
Campfire Ranger
|
|
OP
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 18,005 |
I can actually think of one good thing about the FN 57 pistol. Now, when a Glock guy claims the 1911 is obsolete, us 1911 guys can tell him some folks want to replace Glocks with FN's, and we can watch his head spin You have an evil and twisted mind! I love it!
"I'm gonna have to science the schit out of this." Mark Watney, Sol 59, Mars
|
|
|
|
|
74 members (bcraig, 160user, 41rem, Akhutr, 10gaugemag, 13 invisible),
1,022
guests, and
729
robots. |
|
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
|
Forums81
Topics1,190,221
Posts18,447,497
Members73,899
| |
Most Online11,491
Jul 7th, 2023
|
|
|
|
