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Originally Posted by tex_n_cal
I did indeed pick out one of the more poor tests of the round, but you previously posted that it always did well in Gelatin testing.

No, I said 5.7x28mm bullets do not fail to expand/tumble/fragment in gelatin testing; I was directly responding to another poster who tried to reference the purported 5.56x45mm failures, which were actually attributed to 5.56mm bullets failing to tumble/fragment.



Originally Posted by derby_dude
No doubt about it, in ballistic gelatin the .45 Auto has the edge, followed by the 9mm FMJ, with the 5.7mm bring up a distant third.

That poster cherry-picked loads to make it appear that way (and admitted it). The 9mm FMJ test he posted was also done by a different tester in uncalibrated gelatin. We can make his comparison valid by using high quality 5.7x28mm ammunition alongside a comparable caliber (9x19mm):

9x19mm Golden Saber

5.7x28mm EA Pro II

The tests aren't quite to scale (the 9mm video is zoomed in much closer), but the tests were conducted in the same media by the same independent source (Brassfetcher).

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Looks like either one ought to do the job. Isn't the purpose of the 5.7 to penetrate soft body armour?

Seeing as how I'm not trying to penetrate soft body armour but only killing paper targets and maybe metal plates I guess I'll stick with the .45 Auto.

The 5.7 would be my go to round for elephants though. smile


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I can tell from the tone of the title of this thread that the OP has never owned and probably never fired (or even caressed) a Five-seveN. Him offering advice on this firearm is about as relevant as the Pope giving stage direction to Ron Jeremy for his next pr0n flick.

It pisses off Dianne Feinstein that I own one. That's all the reason I'll ever need. So go pee in someone else's post toasties, I don't give a big green weenie.


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Originally Posted by BT927


Originally Posted by derby_dude
No doubt about it, in ballistic gelatin the .45 Auto has the edge, followed by the 9mm FMJ, with the 5.7mm bring up a distant third.

That poster cherry-picked loads to make it appear that way (and admitted it). The 9mm FMJ test he posted was also done by a different tester in uncalibrated gelatin. We can make his comparison valid by using high quality 5.7x28mm ammunition alongside a comparable caliber (9x19mm):

The tests aren't quite to scale (the 9mm video is zoomed in much closer), but the tests were conducted in the same media by the same independent source (Brassfetcher).


Here's a quote from your first post on this thread:

Originally Posted by bt927


All of the shootings listed above clearly indicate that the 5.7x28mm is at least as effective as the common pistol calibers. The hearsay on this caliber that appears on internet forums is always completely unsubstantiated and unverifiable; people have been recycling these stories for years now, and you still can't trace them to anything more credible than vague posts on an internet forum.



The vid tests I posted are data, hardly unsubstantiated, and definitely not hearsay. Your first posts on this thread puffed up the cartridge as being "...at least as effective as the common pistol calibers." - when in fact the video tests I posted above showed that it was comparable to a .22 LR with its worst loads, and maybe about like a 9mm FMJ with its best loads. When you take the common calibers with their best, premium loads, the difference is visible in favor of the bigger calibers, as others have already observed.

I own 3 AR's, including a .300 Blackout upper, so I am certainly not automatically opposed to new weapons or calibers, but I am also unlikely to face terrorists in body armor, and don't see the point of the FN pistol for me. Now as a carbine, it might well be a neat replacement to the old .22 Hornet in suitible applications, or just a fun project, but I have no illusions that it is the wave of the future.


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tex_n_cal, you spot on and did indeed prove your point



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Originally Posted by tex_n_cal
The vid tests I posted are data, hardly unsubstantiated, and definitely not hearsay. Your first posts on this thread puffed up the cartridge as being "...at least as effective as the common pistol calibers."

Your reading comprehension is failing you again. Read the entire statement you quoted. When I referred to unsubstantiated hearsay I was commenting on the internet stories about shootings with the 5.7x28mm, and I said the verifiable shootings with 5.7x28mm that I listed clearly indicate that the 5.7x28mm is at least as effective as the common pistol calibers.

I never said you can't cherry pick gelatin tests with bad ammo to make the caliber seem worse than it is; I'm sure you can, but your cherry picking proves nothing. In the same testing media, high quality 5.7x28mm EA loads are indistinguishable from their 9x19mm JHP counterparts:

9x19mm Golden Saber

5.7x28mm EA Pro II

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I like new technology, too, but I let others do the beta testing on the really important stuff.


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There's only a handful of gelatin tests of the 5.7 online at Youtube - objective data that everybody can access and examine. I found two of them that aren't very complimentary to the cartridge, one that I posted. You found some that make it look better - which is fine. How many of the "good" tests were in fact cherry picked out of several tests by the folks who posted them - especially the people who sell the ammunition in the video? Beats me, I don't spend my time worrying about this stuff, normally. smile

The OP cited his references to back up his opinion, and you've attacked those references, which is fine. Do you have any references of your own, of sources equal or better in credentials to Roberts, who can show objective data which supports your claim:

Originally Posted by bt927
...and I said the verifiable shootings with 5.7x28mm that I listed clearly indicate that the 5.7x28mm is at least as effective as the common pistol calibers


And it's time for me to do chores, and other productive things smile


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Originally Posted by XL5
I can tell from the tone of the title of this thread that the OP has never owned and probably never fired (or even caressed) a Five-seveN. Him offering advice on this firearm is about as relevant as the Pope giving stage direction to Ron Jeremy for his next pr0n flick.

It pisses off Dianne Feinstein that I own one. That's all the reason I'll ever need. So go pee in someone else's post toasties, I don't give a big green weenie.


Owned, no. Fired, yes, quite a bit. Roughly 500 rounds, full auto and semiauto. Caressed? Ummmm, no... I don't know Ron Jeremy and I don't know the Pope. You'll have to work on that simile on your own.

And I'm glad you're pissing off Diane Feinstein.

I started this thread out of a misguided sense that people who might buy a 5.7mm might be doing so based on some whiz-bang sense that it was/is the wunderkind of new LE/military/defense pistol calibers. Unfortunately, I didn't have my ducks in a row, and I'm putting together some more definitive results from bench testing and real-world applications to speak to the question.

The results ain't all in yet and I'm man enough to say I've overstepped and will post whatever information I gather when it's all in, positive or negative to my initial premise. I'm more interested in the truth than an agenda.

Your pee, your Post Toasties, I have no interest in. Fair enough?


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Originally Posted by tex_n_cal
How many of the "good" tests were in fact cherry picked out of several tests by the folks who posted them - especially the people who sell the ammunition in the video?

None, and the tests were done independently by Brassfetcher, which is a neutral testing source.



Originally Posted by tex_n_cal
The OP cited his references to back up his opinion, and you've attacked those references, which is fine.

Yes, it is fine that I attacked his references; they're obsolete, for reasons I detailed.



Originally Posted by tex_n_cal
Do you have any references of your own, of sources equal or better in credentials to Roberts, who can show objective data which supports your claim:

Read my post on page 6. I already gave examples of verifiable shootings with the 5.7x28mm, supported by reliable articles and news reports with first-hand accounts.

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BT927,
If you're going to be in the Kansas City area to do some holiday shopping this weekend, on Saturday we're having an indoor IDPA shoot at the Bullet Hole (Hodgdon's old indoor range) which isn't that far for you. We start at 10----will be done in time to go shopping. I bet we'll be able to talk them into letting you shoot your 5.7x28--would love to meet you and see you shoot it---won't argue ballistics, I promise!! :-)

BTW, Happy Thanksgiving to everyone at the fire. That we live somewhere where we can argue stuff like this is something to be thankful for.


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Originally Posted by gmoats
BT927,
If you're going to be in the Kansas City area to do some holiday shopping this weekend, on Saturday we're having an indoor IDPA shoot at the Bullet Hole (Hodgdon's old indoor range) which isn't that far for you. We start at 10----will be done in time to go shopping. I bet we'll be able to talk them into letting you shoot your 5.7x28--would love to meet you and see you shoot it---won't argue ballistics, I promise!! :-)

BTW, Happy Thanksgiving to everyone at the fire. That we live somewhere where we can argue stuff like this is something to be thankful for.

I don't know if I'll be in the area, but I'll keep that in mind. I appreciate the offer.

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Originally Posted by BT927

Originally Posted by tex_n_cal
Do you have any references of your own, of sources equal or better in credentials to Roberts, who can show objective data which supports your claim:


Read my post on page 6. I already gave examples of verifiable shootings with the 5.7x28mm, supported by reliable articles and news reports with first-hand accounts.


Our Page View settings must be different, as there's no page 6 for me, but I assume you mean your first lengthy post to this thread. You post two links pertaining to officer Sandy Wall, who is a retired SWAT officer with considerable experience, and an author. The second link has nothing to do with the 5.7.

In the first link, Wall praises the PS90, and relates of the only OIS shooting involving the PS90 & 5.7, of which he had firsthand knowledge:

"...The shooting itself was a violent confrontation with many rounds exchanged between the suspect and the react team. The suspect was hit multiple times with both 5.56mm and 5.7mm rounds... "

Wall was clearly a sharp and brave man who served the public well, and his opinion merits respect, but if the said suspect was shot with both 5.56 and 5.7, how do you conclude the 5.7 was solely responsible for the good outcome? If you have some objective evidence that explains this contradiction, please share.

Originally Posted by bt927

A handful of U.S. SWAT shootings like the one that was described in the Houston SWAT writeup on the P90 (by a 28-year veteran of HPD).


You post no other links, or any other references to the "handful of U.S. SWAT shootings" involving the 5.7, which might suggest it was equal or superior to other cartridges.

Sgt. Munley's bravery is inspiring, but again, I don't see how it provides any useful objective data on the 5.7. A 9mm FMJ would probably have also ruined her knee.

Ft. Hood was a horrible tragedy. Distasteful as it was, I looked for basic info. The terrorist fired about 200 shots, injured 31 and killed 13, including one unborn child. Again, I don't see any meaningful conclusions one can draw from that result.

Links, or detailed references, please, to back up your opinion that the 5.7 is at least as good or better than other popular defensive pistol rounds.


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Originally Posted by tex_n_cal
if the said suspect was shot with both 5.56 and 5.7, how do you conclude the 5.7 was solely responsible for the good outcome? If you have some objective evidence that explains this contradiction, please share.

Again, read the quotes I already posted on that subject. Specifically:

The 5.7mm ball produces a wound cavity about the size and shape of the best 9mm 115 grain JHP +P+, except the peak occurs at a deeper penetration. In the one shooting we had with the P90, the bullet performed well. In fact, the bullet performed exactly as it was designed. The autopsy provided detailed information about the wound cavity and travel of the bullets.



Originally Posted by tex_n_cal
You post no other links, or any other references to the "handful of U.S. SWAT shootings" involving the 5.7, which might suggest it was equal or superior to other cartridges.

Two more examples:

http://web.archive.org/web/20020903...esday/gwinnett_d3c6768a824c529800ad.html (Summary: Duluth, GA police with FN Five-seveN pistols shot and killed a man holed up in his garage shooting at them with a .357 Magnum revolver)

http://www.dui1.com/DuiCaseLawDetail829.htm (Summary: Sioux Falls, SD police officer with a P90 shot a man in the arm through a bedroom door and he dropped his weapon and surrendered)

The best known case involving U.S. police would still be the aforementioned shooting in Houston, TX, which is supported by the article from Sandy Wall, who noted that the SS190 bullet performed well (as confirmed by autopsy) and compared its performance to a 9x19mm 115-grain JHP +P+.

In the other two cases listed above, the victims immediately ceased their actions and/or died. Would the outcome have changed in any of these three shootings if the police officers involved had been using 9x19mm weapons? Absolutely not.



Originally Posted by tex_n_cal
Sgt. Munley's bravery is inspiring, but again, I don't see how it provides any useful objective data on the 5.7. A 9mm FMJ would probably have also ruined her knee.

So would a 9x19mm JHP, or a .40 S&W JHP -- which only supports my assertion that the caliber has been at least as effective as the common pistol calibers. No one ever said the 5.7x28mm is especially lethal or especially destructive; but neither is a 9x19mm JHP or .40 S&W JHP.

Even so, the 5.7x28mm bullet that hit Sgt. Munley's femur destroyed it and incapacitated her. It was effective; it was every bit as effective as a common pistol caliber would have been in its stead.



Originally Posted by tex_n_cal
The terrorist fired about 200 shots, injured 31 and killed 13, including one unborn child. Again, I don't see any meaningful conclusions one can draw from that result.

The attacker fired 147 rounds indoors; the rest were fired outdoors in his exchange of gunfire with responding police. He killed 13 (excluding the child) and wounded 29. In other words, about 30% of the people he shot died of their wounds (incidentally, about 30% of gunshot wounds are fatal in general); as for the survivors at Fort Hood, most were shot in limbs and other non-vital areas, and many still suffered serious injuries.

For the duration of the shooting, every soldier/civilian/police officer that tried to stop the attacker was killed or incapacitated immediately. Many of the victims described feeling the effects of adrenalin during the shooting, and two of the victims even charged the shooter with chairs (according to pre-trial testimony, both were killed with shots to the chest before they could reach him).

In conclusion, yes, there is absolutely a meaningful conclusion one can draw from the incident -- the caliber kills every bit as consistently as the common pistol calibers. Those shot in vital areas generally died, and those shot in non-vital areas generally survived. However, even those who survived (such as Sgt. Munley) still suffered serious injuries, and with the same shot placement another pistol caliber would have produced the exact same results.

As stated earlier, this is also corroborated by dozens upon dozens of news reports on shootings (mostly fatal, and mostly with the Five-seveN pistol, aka "matapolicias") from the Mexican Drug War, and nearby countries like Colombia and the Dominican Republic. The news accounts from Mexico are supported by crime scene photos showing 5.7x28mm casings and/or the deceased victims themselves.

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OK....it took a while but now I understand. Any incident where the 5.7 actually "works" is due to the vastly superior balisticas and ability of the round. Any time it doesn't work....it must be due to faulty ammo or some other reason than an ineffective cartrdge.

Now I see the light.


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Im still trying to see the niche of where it fits in. I dont recall the specific lot or brand of ammo but I vividly recall seeing ballistic testing about 2003-2004 in calibrated gelatin and was completely underwhelmed. As unimpressive as it was, after pentrating a IIa vest is was even less impressive, an ice pick style wound regardless of FMJ or expanding ammo. I agree I would rather have any wound in the body over a bullet stopped on a vest but are there available stats on what percentage of shootings involve body armor in a civilian environment? If I was facing a known armored threat I would be reaching for more than a 5.7 or changing my aiming point to begin with. If the BG is aware/prepared enough to be wearing armor I would hedge my bets by selecting something heavy enough to punch a plate rather than hoping the BG is wearing soft body armor without an additional insert.

I recall the Sacramento Good Guy shooting and soft body armor was an issue. The entry team was already in place inside the building and the hostage negotiators provided the hostage takers with ballistic vest (which the BG tested by shooting with a 9mm). The team was advised of the issue and aiming points were adjusted. Aside from the timing of the sniper initiated assault the entry team did just fine with MP5's shooting 147 hydrashok.

If someone wanted to exam the Hollywood bank robbery you could make an arguement that a 5.7 might have penetrated enough to make a difference (mix of soft armor and plates) but the more appropriate solution for an average officer is still a full size 5.56.


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Originally Posted by varmintsinc
Im still trying to see the niche of where it fits in.


I'm still trying to see why one hideous plastic gun costs twice as much as the other hideous plastic guns.

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Originally Posted by varmintsinc
Im still trying to see the niche of where it fits in. I dont recall the specific lot or brand of ammo but I vividly recall seeing ballistic testing about 2003-2004 in calibrated gelatin and was completely underwhelmed. As unimpressive as it was, after pentrating a IIa vest is was even less impressive, an ice pick style wound regardless of FMJ or expanding ammo. I agree I would rather have any wound in the body over a bullet stopped on a vest but are there available stats on what percentage of shootings involve body armor in a civilian environment? If I was facing a known armored threat I would be reaching for more than a 5.7 or changing my aiming point to begin with. If the BG is aware/prepared enough to be wearing armor I would hedge my bets by selecting something heavy enough to punch a plate rather than hoping the BG is wearing soft body armor without an additional insert.

I recall the Sacramento Good Guy shooting and soft body armor was an issue. The entry team was already in place inside the building and the hostage negotiators provided the hostage takers with ballistic vest (which the BG tested by shooting with a 9mm). The team was advised of the issue and aiming points were adjusted. Aside from the timing of the sniper initiated assault the entry team did just fine with MP5's shooting 147 hydrashok.

If someone wanted to exam the Hollywood bank robbery you could make an arguement that a 5.7 might have penetrated enough to make a difference (mix of soft armor and plates) but the more appropriate solution for an average officer is still a full size 5.56.




Any of the small caliber weapons are unimpressive to me in general when compared to a normal caliber weapon when AL factors are considered

If the officers involved in the bank robbery that you referred to would have had about any simple deer rifle with any ammo then the vest would have been penetrated. Also a heavy projectile such as the 255 grain hard cast load from Buffalo Bore at 925 FPS would have put a lot of hurt on the intended target even if no penetration of the body armor was achieved. Blunt force trauma is great with the additional mass of the heavy projectile



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Originally Posted by TexasRick
OK....it took a while but now I understand. Any incident where the 5.7 actually "works" is due to the vastly superior balisticas and ability of the round. Any time it doesn't work....it must be due to faulty ammo or some other reason than an ineffective cartrdge.

Now I see the light.


You have it! grin


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Originally Posted by TexasRick
OK....it took a while but now I understand. Any incident where the 5.7 actually "works" is due to the vastly superior balisticas and ability of the round.

No, that was your fabrication.

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