Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Handguns '86 miami shootout

They learned about firepower, but also primarily that the old LE standard of taking cover and returning fire against a highly offensive, military style, mobile opponent was a good way to get dead.

Michael Lee Platt: 6'0" - 173 lbs.
U.S. Army (#526087944) from 27 June 1972-1 May 1979
Honorable Discharge; E-6
Airborne Ranger trained at Fort Campbell: 9/73-5/75
Also served in M.P. Unit there with Matix. Service notation includes "High Combat Proficiency."
MOS: 11B10, 11B20, 11B30
William Russell Matix: 6'1" - 147 lbs.
Marine Corps (#2578943) from 7 October 1969-7 July 1972. Honorable Discharge; E-5
U.S. Army (#2578943) from 10 August 1973-9 August 1976. Honorable Discharge; E-5
MOS: Military Police, 101st Airborne Division, Fort Campbell, Kentucky.

L.W.

They was some salty old boys, anyway you cut it, eh Leanwolf?

My take on this and the FBI in general is that they hire ivory tower college folks who haven't a clue about who they're stalking. They then try to get super-scientific with computer printouts and suchlike, when they could just hire the people they so disdain in the first place and save a lot of time. Hiring people who know the quarry they are stalking and whose proficiency with weapons is inherent rather than solely by training, would go a longer ways toward eliminating future occurrences than would gadgetry and more college boys.

For those unfamiliar with such, MOS 11B is Light Weapons, Infantry, i.e. your basic combat rifleman.

Didnt they make a movie about this?

That's why such agencies as FBI, DEA, USMS, have local LEO's assigned to criminal taskforces within the the agencies operating areas. It's because the local LEO's know the people and the area better then the Fed's.

someone mentioned this shootout with FBI agents in another thread so I looked it up. I was too young to have even remembered it happening. apparently it lead to alot of changes at the FBI and eventually likely led to the 40 S&W. however it looks to me like the problems the FBI had was more due to poor hits on the bad guys than a problem with the cartridge being used. I could see most of the blame being put on shooting revolvers over double stack 9mm's. double stack semi autos may have closed the gap of poor hits and another shot or 2 could have found their mark.

if the first hit that stopped right before the heart would have been a 40 S&W would even that have penetrated far enough?? is the 40 a better penetrater than the 9mm?? the 9mm that was fired went through the guys arm, into the chest from the side and stopped just short of the heart, but was still a fatal shot from hitting the lung. this doesn't sound like a problem with the 9mm. It was just a tuff shot angle for the 9mm to get the job done, or perhaps any pistol round for that matter. why were all the FBI guys shooting 38 spl in their 357's. what are your conclusions about what the FBI got right or wrong about the aftermath??

You need to get a copy of this and read it



I totally disagree with your assertion that poor shooting was the problem and so do the involved agents, lack of penetration with the shot angles and barriers were at fault and that is clear IMHO

The agents in the 86 shoot out in Miami were only allowed to carry weapons that were issued to them and that they were qualified to carry. The ammo for the 9mm semi auto pistols was the Winchester 115 grain silver tip. The ammo for the revolvers was the 158 gran LSWHP 38 special +P. They were were not allowed to carry 357 mag ammo in their revolvers

To deny that the ammo used that day exhibited inadequate penetration is, well ridiculous

In my collection, I have the FBI training video for this. they give an overview, interview some of the agents that were there, and they re-enact it minute by minute, at the scene.

Basic issues were
- no standardized firearm, permit to carry 5rd snubbies.
- requirement o carry FMJ in autos for reliability
- agents were allowed to wear glasses
- only some agents carried body armor with them, none wore it
- lack of effective gunfight training for agents

Many agents at the time had had little to no real combat/gunfight training. Most were allowed to carry a variety of weapons, and at that time, the revolver was still highly favored for most police work. In the initial fight, one agent shot one of the two bad guys with a FMJ 9mm round in the lungs. this is a kill shot, but the FMJ did not expand, so he had to bleed out, and that took time. Several agents interviewed said that they were awed by the loud firing of the mini-14, and several agents heard whizzing near them, and not all even knew that it was the sound of bullets. One of the agents was hit in the hand, and was unable to reload his 5-shot snubbie after it was dry. One of the best shots that was ther had his glasses knocked off at the start, and he could not even see more than a few yards without the - he was shot & killed while trying to figure out where others were.

If you want to see some butt kicked by a federal agency look at the US Marshalls, its like night and day between them and the FBI.

The FBI knew this but just got fat and lazy and forgot the lessons the mobile heavily armed gangsters of the 1920's & 1930's taught them through hard lessons. Experienced hard nosed lawmen with gunfighting experience were called in to combat the equally hard nosed gangsters. The Federal Agents were also heavily armed with the likes of Thompsons, BAR's, Gov't Model .45's and .38 Supers, S&W 38/44 Heavy Duty revolvers and at some point the new S&W .357 Magnum. Complacency will get you killed.

Did you bother reading what Doc Rocket posted about the forensic analysis? About them literally being dead men walking? Do you think that blowing through the heart with one of Fackler's 147 grainers would have done better? For crying out loud.