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Re: Why the moniker 45 Long Colts [Re: Dirtfarmer] #5301528 06/04/11
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Re: Why the moniker 45 Long Colts [Re: EthanEdwards] #5301547 06/04/11
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ingwe Offline
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Originally Posted by ColeYounger
Originally Posted by Jericho
Slightly off topic, but I remember watching cowboy movies
when I was a kid and seeing indians using Winchester 94s.
They were probably '92s, which are pretty difficult to distinguish from '94s, especially at a glance. The 1892 Winchester was exceedingly popular in films due to its ability to ingest the popular "Five-in-One blanks" that were used on the sets. Same with the Colt SAA.

One of the most infamous cases was The Commancheros, a John Wayne offering set in 1836.



Yep and I saw another John Wayne Movie- I forget the title- set in post Civil War 1866-1867

the Duke was packing a '73 Colt SAA and a model '92 Winchester...


He was ahead of his time.... grin


"...the left considers you vermin, and they'll kill you given the chance..." Bristoe
Re: Why the moniker 45 Long Colts [Re: ingwe] #5302185 06/04/11
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Originally Posted by ingwe
Originally Posted by ColeYounger
Originally Posted by Jericho
Slightly off topic, but I remember watching cowboy movies
when I was a kid and seeing indians using Winchester 94s.
They were probably '92s, which are pretty difficult to distinguish from '94s, especially at a glance. The 1892 Winchester was exceedingly popular in films due to its ability to ingest the popular "Five-in-One blanks" that were used on the sets. Same with the Colt SAA.

One of the most infamous cases was The Commancheros, a John Wayne offering set in 1836.



Yep and I saw another John Wayne Movie- I forget the title- set in post Civil War 1866-1867

the Duke was packing a '73 Colt SAA and a model '92 Winchester...


He was ahead of his time.... grin


The Duke was just "progressive", always a generation or two ahead of his time...

But, that's what made him the Duke...

Only mere mortals were limited to flintlocks during the 1830's and percussion caps during the Civil War...

I've read that the 38-40 was his favorite. Something to do with the 5 way blanks they used...

The Duke was a man's man and whatever he used was OK with us, period correctness, notwithstanding...

DF

Re: Why the moniker 45 Long Colts [Re: Dirtfarmer] #5304168 06/05/11
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ingwe Offline
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True Dat...and Ive heard the same thing on the 5-way blanks...


"...the left considers you vermin, and they'll kill you given the chance..." Bristoe
Re: Why the moniker 45 Long Colts [Re: ingwe] #5322900 06/11/11
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Originally Posted by ingwe
True Dat...and Ive heard the same thing on the 5-way blanks...


OK, so what exactly is a 5-way blank?


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Re: Why the moniker 45 Long Colts [Re: Craigster] #5327948 06/12/11
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Originally Posted by Craigster
Originally Posted by ingwe
True Dat...and Ive heard the same thing on the 5-way blanks...


OK, so what exactly is a 5-way blank?
It is/was the common Hollywood blank cartridge used in westerns. Filled with black or smokeless powder but with no projectile. It could be used in guns chambered for 45 Colt, 44-40, or 38-40. The "Five" referred to its being able to be utilized in Winchesters chambered for the 44-40 or 38-40 or Colt SAA's chambered in the same or for 45 Colt. There were no originally-chambered 45 Colt Winchesters back when the blanks originated.

Re: Why the moniker 45 Long Colts [Re: Craigster] #5333653 06/14/11
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Originally Posted by Craigster
Originally Posted by ingwe
True Dat...and Ive heard the same thing on the 5-way blanks...


OK, so what exactly is a 5-way blank?


I used the term "5-way blank", whereas the correct name is "5-in-1 blanks". I think an earlier poster had used the correct terminology. Anyway, the info was right.

DF

Re: Why the moniker 45 Long Colts [Re: saddlesore] #5450463 07/23/11
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Originally Posted by saddlesore
So if all you Cowboy shooters want to be historically correct,please start referring to it as the 45 Colt.



WHy the 45 Long colt? because there once was a 45 Colt short.
http://www.leverguns.com/articles/taylor/45_short_colt.htm


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Re: Why the moniker 45 Long Colts [Re: Reloder28] #5542499 08/21/11
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Maybe the long colt was developed for use in the buntline specials wink


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Re: Why the moniker 45 Long Colts [Re: 8mmwapiti] #5590597 09/05/11
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8MM Wapiti, You are correct.

The only 41 Special I've seen and shot belongs to Rocky Raab and fires a shortened 41mag case, very well I might add.

"45 LONG Colt" is a long time peeve of mine as well, It's 45 Colt, not 45 S&W, not 45 ACP, well you know...


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Re: Why the moniker 45 Long Colts [Re: ingwe] #5598969 09/08/11
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The Searchers?


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Re: Why the moniker 45 Long Colts [Re: Jericho] #5624051 09/15/11
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Re: Why the moniker 45 Long Colts [Re: kabom] #5787443 11/06/11
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Kabom why have you not been removed for interupting the normal

flow of a sites posting? You have nothing to contribute to this

post about 45 long or short!

That makes you a troll and very arrogant as well,as I see your

automatic fucing up every thing boreing !!!!!

YAWN............YAWN.... BAN HIS ASS!!

Love Bob

Re: Why the moniker 45 Long Colts [Re: saddlesore] #5858177 11/28/11
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All of the issues over long and short-or regular Colt cartridges came along because of a change in the ammunition. Original Colt 41 and 38 cal. rounds were loaded with full caliber "heeled" bullets that were outside lubed. The change came along at the instigation of the Russians, whereby the cartridge dimensions remained the same, but the bullets were now inside lubed, and fit into the brass/copper case. Not only did this reduce the diameter of the bullet, but the new cases were longer to accommodate inside lubed bullets-thus, the "long" moniker.
There was never any need to refer to the .45 Colt as the "long", because the storied round was designed from the start with an inside lubed bullet. It never went through a redesign, so it never had its case shortened, or lengthened.
It is also true that throughout the 19th Century, no handgun manufacturer other than Colt ever chambered the great round.
It is true that the army listened to Col. Schofield, and ordered some 6,000 examples for cavalry use, however these rounds were not true short Colt rounds-they were simply referred to as .45 Revolver.
There was a 450 Short Colt, which was actually one of the nonsensically confusing spinoffs of British handgun cartridges, however it bore no relation to the 45 Colt dimensionally, or in terms of pedigree.
British Cartridges were sometimes referred to as Colt cartridges, probably because they found their way in Colt guns. The most well known was the 455 Eley-a.k.a. the 455 Webley, 475 Enfield, and the 455 Colt.
The term .45 Long Colt was never an official moniker, it was essentially slang, today so pervasive that if you say 45 Colt to most gun store counter types, you get a very blank look.
I pointed this out to one gun store employee, and he thought I was talking about the .45 ACP! Another replied...well, you might be right, but I don't care, because long colt just sounds so cool!
What can one do with that?

Re: Why the moniker 45 Long Colts [Re: Mak] #5858837 11/28/11
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Originally Posted by Mak
... Another replied...well, you might be right, but I don't care, because long colt just sounds so cool!
What can one do with that?


Ignorance is bliss! grin

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Re: Why the moniker 45 Long Colts [Re: saddlesore] #5909658 12/12/11
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This has been beaten to death over the years. IIRC, and I may not, Mike Venturino listed examples, in one of his articles or books, of the 45 Colt being called the "Long Colt" back in the old west era. I think he also may have found examples of cartridge boxes so designated. To me, that settles the issue. The term was evidently in usage on the frontier, how commonly, I don't know. I have always preferred "45 Colt" myself, because I'm not into drama, but that's just me. Either term is fine.

Re: Why the moniker 45 Long Colts [Re: ingwe] #5909669 12/12/11
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Originally Posted by ingwe
Originally Posted by ColeYounger
Originally Posted by Jericho
Slightly off topic, but I remember watching cowboy movies
when I was a kid and seeing indians using Winchester 94s.
They were probably '92s, which are pretty difficult to distinguish from '94s, especially at a glance. The 1892 Winchester was exceedingly popular in films due to its ability to ingest the popular "Five-in-One blanks" that were used on the sets. Same with the Colt SAA.

One of the most infamous cases was The Commancheros, a John Wayne offering set in 1836.



Yep and I saw another John Wayne Movie- I forget the title- set in post Civil War 1866-1867

the Duke was packing a '73 Colt SAA and a model '92 Winchester...


He was ahead of his time.... grin
Red River was set in the period of 1851 through 1865. It's not listed on the IMdB Guns in Movies site, so I'll have to rely on my own eyes. In it, Duke uses what appears to be a Trapdoor Springfield Carbine 22 years before it existed or possibly only fifteen years before it did. Duke also taught us in this movie that SAA's were common in 1865 along with '92 Winchesters. In 1851, he and Walter Brennan are wearing revolvers of some sort. At the time, a smattering of Colt Pattersons would have been available, plus the Walker, Dragoons and Baby Dragoon model. Neither looks big enough to be a Walker or Dragoon and the Navy wouldn't have made it to Oklahoma yet.

Then there is The Undefeated, set right after the War Between the States. Rio Lobo is too. The Searchers is an otherwise excellent movie.

I don't know why Duke, when he set The Alamo in daylight, didn't go for it and arm the Texicans with '92s and SA's. If he'd have went whole-hog and brought in a couple of Gatling Guns, who knows?

Re: Why the moniker 45 Long Colts [Re: EthanEdwards] #5944202 12/20/11
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300Takedown Offline
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I've read that the reason they used Trapdoor Springfields in some scenes in The Outlaw Josey Wales was because its safer to fire a blank cartridge than to fire a blank-loaded muzzle loader. I guess maybe the blank cartridge doesn't need a wad or as much of one because it can be crimped? Anyway, if you look closely you'll see that they are shooting Trapdoor Springfields from inside the house.

The still pictures and closeups show a regular Colt Walker and the other, lesser, revolvers but the shooting scenes were done with revolvers converted to fire cartridges for the same reason.

That same issue may have had something to do with the prevalence of guns from the future in so many other movies as well.

Re: Why the moniker 45 Long Colts [Re: 300Takedown] #5967828 12/27/11
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Originally Posted by 300Takedown
I've read that the reason they used Trapdoor Springfields in some scenes in The Outlaw Josey Wales was because its safer to fire a blank cartridge than to fire a blank-loaded muzzle loader. I guess maybe the blank cartridge doesn't need a wad or as much of one because it can be crimped? Anyway, if you look closely you'll see that they are shooting Trapdoor Springfields from inside the house.

The still pictures and closeups show a regular Colt Walker and the other, lesser, revolvers but the shooting scenes were done with revolvers converted to fire cartridges for the same reason.

That same issue may have had something to do with the prevalence of guns from the future in so many other movies as well.
The older movies just didn't have the attention to detail on firearms that the newer ones do. Josey Wales was made during a time when movies were transitioning to much more accurate depictions, so the movie is interspersed with guns that were easy to work with and guns that are historically accurate. The Navajo woman's pistol, when she gets the drop on Lone Waite, is obviously a conversion.

One thing about Josey Wales, it is unclear what year it is. Allin Conversions came out in what? 1866? It could easily have been 1866 and the guns came from the Commanchero's stock-stuff that could have been stolen or bought from rogue elements of the US Army. The cartridge conversion pistols are a big stretch though. So is the model 1874 Sharps, which actually came out in 1871.

Re: Why the moniker 45 Long Colts [Re: 300Takedown] #5990451 01/02/12
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Originally Posted by 300Takedown
I've read that the reason they used Trapdoor Springfields in some scenes in The Outlaw Josey Wales was because its safer to fire a blank cartridge than to fire a blank-loaded muzzle loader.
That's only part of the reason (although no one wants to see a ram rod go zinging across the set). The other reason is a combination of time/reliability. Generally speaking to get 60 seconds of film requires up to 45 minutes of set up (and you wondered why movies cost millions to make). This means that when the action is hot and heavy, most producers/directors can't afford to re-shoot a scene because the muzzle loader failed to fire on cue.

The use of blanks has another advantage and that is sight and sound -- they can be loaded to smoke, flash, or bang, or any combination of these three. Usually the sound is a mere pop, with the the bang added in later, in post production, when other sound effects are added to the picture.

Last edited by Old_Writer; 01/02/12.

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