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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: May 2007
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I did not ignore the BC. I used the BC listed in the Hornady manual. .277, 110gr V-Max=.370 .308, 110gr V-Max=.275 .277, 130gr SP=.460 .308, 130gr SP=.295 I used Point Blank software and QuickTarget. You are right about one thing, the Hornady data is more fiction that fact. A max load of AA 1680 (29.5gr) with 110gr bullet actually is closer to 2700fps out on an 18 inch barrel. My hunting load is 29.5gr 1680 with 110gr Barns TTSX, my test results are on par with Accurate Powders, just under 2700fps. Steve, We suggest the following. Caliber: 7.62x39 Russian. Barrel length: 18� Powder: Accurate � 1680�. Bullet weight: 110 grains. Start load: 26.1 grains (ca 1325 Fps) Maximum load: 29.5 grains ( ca 2675 Fps) LD ca 100%. NOTES: It� important to note that SAFETY is our prime concern therefore we strongly recommend. 1. ALWAYS BEGIN LOADING AT THE RECOMMENDED MINIMUM �START� LOAD and develop loads in 2% increments towards the MAXIMUM load. 2. If possible, measure the velocity and correlate with our data. Regards Johan Loubser Ballistician Ramshot.Accurate.Powders WesternPowdersInc.Miles City.Montana. www.ramshot.com www.accuratepowder.comwww.montanaxtreme.comwww.blackhorn209.com Reduce the 18 inch barrel to 16 inches and we get 2613fps. 110gr V-max. 200 yards 7.62x39=-4.98 inches 2060fps 6.6 SPC=-4.73 inches 2161fps 300 yards 7.62x39=-18.10 inches 1810fps 6.8 SPC=-16.83 inches 1959fps a difference of 1.27 inches. You are right, actual tested data is better, shows the 7.62 x39 is even closer to the 6.8 than I thought. Thanks. Show me a factory load pushing a 110 gr bullet in the 7.62x39 at 2675fps. Or at minimum, show me a respected load manual showing that type of performance. No one, not Accurate, not Hornady, not Hodgdons not a single ammunition manufacturer shows a load remotely close to what you're claiming, but we're supposed to use stated, known 6.8spc load specs, while comparing them to fantasy personal load claims? Two can play this game... Here's a load for the 6.8SPC listed in the 6.8spc FAQ on AR15.com: 18" WOA bbl 110gr VMax 30.5gr H322 2790fps @300 yards: 2098fps 14.2" drop Your claimed load @300yds: 1793fps 17.8" drop. Even the hottest unproven 7.62x39 load claim the world has ever seen, falls short by a difference of 305 FPS and a 3.6" drop.
![[Linked Image]](http://militarysignatures.com/signatures/member651.png)
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Joined: Apr 2005
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Apr 2005
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I know for a fact that shooting the 2 side by side (6.8 & 7.62X39) that the 6.8 creates the most damage Enough difference that I'll take it. The 6.8 shoots noticeable flatter as well
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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Flat is not an issue these days... I run my 308s way on out there... never been an issue.
Wind drift is the big issue. And I'll take less wind drift over more wind drift anyday if I'm being picky.
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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BTW whats better the 270 or the 06? Neither, its the 280... AI....grins
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
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Joined: Nov 2003
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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its a matter of preference or need and the trade offs have to be weighted to gain more power in the 6.8.
Me I do see more power in the 6.8 but all together as a package I relish cheap ammunition to practice with, interchangeability of parts, a very very well understood bullet delivery system, KISS as a way of life (me I would stick my 6.8mag in the 5.56 and miss the deer). Then I am happy with the ability of the 5.56 to kill with good bullets.
The 7.62 x 39 is yet another well known well understood system with tons of inexpensive practice ammunition, to me this weights heavily in a decision. Show me something I cannot kill with a 5.56 and a 62 grain TSX under 200 yards and then you have sold me on a 6.8!
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Joined: Nov 2006
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 10,163 |
Got a 30-30 load to match this one? ...............................................MV.......300Yd Vel 6.8 SPC 85gr Barnes TSX TACTICAL 0.246- 3000FPS- 1708FPS 2.3- 0.0-7.8 http://www.ssarmory.com/ballistics.aspx Remember the 30-30 Accelerators?  LOL, you guys can skew numbers any way you like, hey don't forget Remingtons claim of 2850fps with a 115gr bullet, that'll make it look real good. Fact is I'll still do everything I want to do with my 223, when I need more I'll step up to the 308 Winchester. Same as the military, btw, I'd sure like to see some AAR's on the 6.8spc and 6.5 in combat. What was that, the 6.8 up to 400 yards and the 6.5 from there out to 1000 yards? And here I thought they used meters...
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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They have proven to be good killers on game. The Military has found the 6.8 to be extremely effective to 400 yards or so but beyound 400 to 1000 the 6.5 Grendal has been more effective
Oh yes here it is...
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Aug 2002
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These threads are fun to read once (if any) useful information is extracted.
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Joined: Nov 2006
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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Oh it's all in fun, someone here has an avitar that reads "your favorite caliber sucks" pretty much sums it up.
Truth is with today's bullets, they all work.
I do like the 6.8 cause it combines all the best of these smaller-medium calibers into an AR-15 platform that runs well.
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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These threads are fun to read once (if any) useful information is extracted. and....so it goes...  no problemo for me regards what folks hunt with, the only ones that get me are the "this is the only way to do it" folks...
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2004
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No one, not Accurate, not Hornady, not Hodgdons not a single ammunition manufacturer shows a load remotely close to what you're claiming, but we're supposed to use stated, Sorry, maybe you missed where I got my data from. If you read what you just quoted you will see that it is an email response from Johan Loubser head Ballistician at Accurate/Ramshot/Western Powders. Now before you get even more angry and call me a liar(again) maybe you should call him or send him an email and find out what his load data for the 110gr bullet in the 7.62x39 actually is. Then when your done, you can come back here and call him a liar also. As for my other data, it comes straight from Hornady #7 page 538. Lists a max charge of AA 1680(28.5gr) running at 2600fps. This is from Guns/Ammo note the 110gr bullet data. Cool Ain't it? 7.62x39 LOAD DATA
Bullet Bullet Weight (gr.) Powder Primer Case Starting Load (grs.) Maximum Load (grs.) Max. Muzzle Velocity (fps)
Hornady FMJ 90 Alliant 2400 Federal 210 Winchester 18.0 21.01 2,850
Hornady FMJ 90 Vihta Vuori N110 Winchester LR IMI 19.0 22.0 2,880
Hornady FMJ 90 Hodgdon H110 CCI 200 Winchester 19.0 22.5 2,860
Hornady RN 110 Accurate 1680 Federal 210 IMI 23.0 28.0 2,770
Hornady RN 110 Norma N 200 Winchester LR Winchester 22.0 26.5 2,550
Sierra Spitzer Pro-Hunter 125 Accurate 201 5BR CCI 200 IMI 24.0 27.0 2,250
Sierra Spitzer Pro-Hunter 125 Vihta Vuori N120 Federal 210 Winchester 21.0 25.0 2,450
Sierra Spitzer Pro-Hunter 125 RS X-Terminator Winchester LR IMI 25.0 30.0 2,350
Nosler Ballistic Tip 125 Alliant R1-7 CCI 200 Winchester 22.0 26.0 2,425
Nosler Ballistic Tip 125 IMR 4227 Federal 210 IMI 19.0 22.5 2,375
Barnes Triple Shock 130 Hodgdon H4198 Winchester LR Winchester 22.0 25.5 2,450
Barnes Triple Shock 130 Norma N-201 CCI-200 IMI 24.0 28.0 2,275
Speer HP 130 RS TAC Federal 210 Winchester 26.0 30.0 2,350
Speer HP 130 Winchester 296 Winchester LR IMI 14.0 18.0 2,2
I found the link to this G&A data. Note they used a 23 inch barrel. Drop that to a 16 inch to compare to the 6.8 barrel tested and we come up with 2600fps. Right on with the 6.8/Hornady data. link. http://archives.gunsandammo.com/content/the-762x39?page=2
Last edited by steve4102; 11/29/11.
Give a man a fish and he eats for a day. Give a man a welfare check, a forty ounce malt liquor, a crack pipe, an Obama phone, free health insurance. and some Air Jordan's and he votes Democrat for a lifetime.
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Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
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In my experience the 7.62X39 doesn't out perform the 6.8. I have shot both and I still have a 6.8 and have been rather impressed with its destructiveness for lack of a better term Run a 125 BT in the x39 and some destructiveness should manifest...but still won't make it an AR round. Ya gotta like the 85 TSX in the SPC at 3k....or the 55-62 TTSX in the same ballpark. So...which one of these two would be the best for the AR...? The logical best answer for this group is one lower 2 uppers. It's almost 2012...so why not live it up a little! TC
It ain't all burritos and strippers my friends...
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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I am liking the 53TSX over 27 grains of TAC some more these days.
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Joined: May 2007
Posts: 13,957
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 13,957 |
No one, not Accurate, not Hornady, not Hodgdons not a single ammunition manufacturer shows a load remotely close to what you're claiming, but we're supposed to use stated, Sorry, maybe you missed where I got my data from. If you read what you just quoted you will see that it is an email response from Johan Loubser head Ballistician at Accurate/Ramshot/Western Powders. Now before you get even more angry and call me a liar(again) maybe you should call him or send him an email and find out what his load data for the 110gr bullet in the 7.62x39 actually is. Then when your done, you can come back here and call him a liar also. As for my other data, it comes straight from Hornady #7 page 538. Lists a max charge of AA 1680(28.5gr) running at 2600fps. This is from Guns/Ammo note the 110gr bullet data. Cool Ain't it? 7.62x39 LOAD DATA
Bullet Bullet Weight (gr.) Powder Primer Case Starting Load (grs.) Maximum Load (grs.) Max. Muzzle Velocity (fps)
Hornady FMJ 90 Alliant 2400 Federal 210 Winchester 18.0 21.01 2,850
Hornady FMJ 90 Vihta Vuori N110 Winchester LR IMI 19.0 22.0 2,880
Hornady FMJ 90 Hodgdon H110 CCI 200 Winchester 19.0 22.5 2,860
Hornady RN 110 Accurate 1680 Federal 210 IMI 23.0 28.0 2,770
Hornady RN 110 Norma N 200 Winchester LR Winchester 22.0 26.5 2,550
Sierra Spitzer Pro-Hunter 125 Accurate 201 5BR CCI 200 IMI 24.0 27.0 2,250
Sierra Spitzer Pro-Hunter 125 Vihta Vuori N120 Federal 210 Winchester 21.0 25.0 2,450
Sierra Spitzer Pro-Hunter 125 RS X-Terminator Winchester LR IMI 25.0 30.0 2,350
Nosler Ballistic Tip 125 Alliant R1-7 CCI 200 Winchester 22.0 26.0 2,425
Nosler Ballistic Tip 125 IMR 4227 Federal 210 IMI 19.0 22.5 2,375
Barnes Triple Shock 130 Hodgdon H4198 Winchester LR Winchester 22.0 25.5 2,450
Barnes Triple Shock 130 Norma N-201 CCI-200 IMI 24.0 28.0 2,275
Speer HP 130 RS TAC Federal 210 Winchester 26.0 30.0 2,350
Speer HP 130 Winchester 296 Winchester LR IMI 14.0 18.0 2,2
I found the link to this G&A data. Note they used a 23 inch barrel. Drop that to a 16 inch to compare to the 6.8 barrel tested and we come up with 2600fps. Right on with the 6.8/Hornady data. link. http://archives.gunsandammo.com/content/the-762x39?page=2 That load is not listed in Accurate's load manual or their online load data. That is the point. I also knew about the max load 2600fps in Hornady 7 as I have it right here, but here's the problem..... That Hornady load is 2600fps IN A 20" BARREL. Oops... So no, 2600fps in a 20" barrel is not close to 2675fps from an 18" barrel. And again, feel free to use the email load you quoted. The AR15.com load I put up, beat it hands down. There is no free lunch. The 7.62x39 is working at a SAAMI 10,000 psi disadvantage together with a BC disadvantage in any remotely close bullet comparisons. And the kicker is, the case capacities are almost identical, so there is no way for the 7.62x39 to make up for it's shortfalls without blowing way past SAAMI specs or having to move outside the AR magazine restraints. Either of which could be done with the 6.8spc as well, if we want to get crazy, so what's the point? You can't bail 7 gallons of water with a 6 gallon bucket, it's that simple.
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Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 34,138
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 34,138 |
So no, 2600fps in a 20" barrel is not close to 2675fps from an 18" barrel. If you go back a READ my first posts on this nonsense you will see that I converted the 20 inch x39 barrel to 16 inches using QL. If you go back and READ you will also see that Johan's data for the x39/110gr bullet is a full grain more than Hornady's data, hence the increase in velocity with shorter barrel. Not trying to be rude or condescending, just posting facts and comments that relate to this rather nasty comment. Anyone that thinks a 7.62x39 has the same performance as a 6.8spc, with same barrel length and bullet weight is smoking something.
We've been down this road before and the actual performance isn't even remotely close. Maybe at 50 yards, but that is like saying Bubba is just as strong as Mike Tyson......
at crushing a beer can in his eye socket after 10 beers.
Give a man a fish and he eats for a day. Give a man a welfare check, a forty ounce malt liquor, a crack pipe, an Obama phone, free health insurance. and some Air Jordan's and he votes Democrat for a lifetime.
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Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 10,163
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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Posts: 10,163 |
Ok serious question for the 6.8 lovers, do you load to SAAMI specs on all calibers or load to pressure? I mean the 7.62x39 is 10,000psi behind the 6.8 at SAAMI specs but can the 6.8 be loaded safely to a higher pressure? I mean since it's onset, the 6.8 was hotrodded by even the mfgs. Did they get all the good out of it or is there more?
From where I sit, it seems like it's already at max and the 7.62x39 could use a 10,000psi boost as well, just like every other caliber we load for, searching for pressure signs.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 57,474 |
In my experience the 7.62X39 doesn't out perform the 6.8. I have shot both and I still have a 6.8 and have been rather impressed with its destructiveness for lack of a better term Run a 125 BT in the x39 and some destructiveness should manifest...but still won't make it an AR round. Ya gotta like the 85 TSX in the SPC at 3k....or the 55-62 TTSX in the same ballpark. So...which one of these two would be the best for the AR...? The logical best answer for this group is one lower 2 uppers. It's almost 2012...so why not live it up a little! TC nephew runs 125bts.... and though I fail to see what some folks get out of extra destructiveness, lets just say i've killed stuff on the far side of 500 with that combo and its never failed to kill what its pointed at if the shot is good. And we've killed quite a bit from 150 to about 225 over the years. caliber entry, dime to nickle size exit, blood trails, dead... can't ask for anymore than that IMHO
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
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Joined: May 2007
Posts: 13,957
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 13,957 |
Ok serious question for the 6.8 lovers, do you load to SAAMI specs on all calibers or load to pressure? I mean the 7.62x39 is 10,000psi behind the 6.8 at SAAMI specs but can the 6.8 be loaded safely to a higher pressure? I mean since it's onset, the 6.8 was hotrodded by even the mfgs. Did they get all the good out of it or is there more?
From where I sit, it seems like it's already at max and the 7.62x39 could use a 10,000psi boost as well, just like every other caliber we load for, searching for pressure signs. Most of the 2600fps+ (16"bbl) loads quoted around here for the 6.8spc are under SAAMI limit. Hornady and Hodgdons both show loads in that range and they are not going to list loads above SAAMI pressure limits. The increases we have seen in the past couple years were from switching to the SPCII chamber which in combination with better twist rates, decreased pressure, theoretically leaving some room for an increase in powder. So no, I would say that the 6.8spc has not been maxed out. Again, there is only so much you can do with a case with equivalent case capacity in a larger caliber, especially when faced with magazine restraints. There is no magic in physics. You simply cannot use the equivalent BC bullets for the 7.62x39, to match performance, that you can for the 6.8spc, without blowing past pressure limits. The same reason the 6.8spc can't match the grendel at 600 yards is the same (and much more exaggerated) that you can't match the 6.8spc with the 7.62x39 at 300 yards, unless you go way past SAAMI limits. If your going to do that, then compare apples to apples and blow past SAAMI for the 6.8spc as well. Or be honest and just note each cartridge for what it is.
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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"Or be honest and just note each cartridge for what it is"
If only everyone would...
If we are going to compare apples to apples, then lets load to same pressure. The SAAMI constraints are there for other reasons much like the 45-70 and other cartridges. Given a competent reloader, pressure can be increased for the 7.62x39 but you are correct you will never beat the B.C. of the 6.8.
But the commy round is loaded at 2300fps, think about this, military ball 308 is loaded at 2700fps, while it's relatively easy to get 2950fps out of it, what if we gave it the same boost we do the 308 while still retaing safe pressures like the Western powders loads mentioned earlier.
My whole point is still, that while all these numbers mean things, neither the 6.8 or the 7.62x39 will kill anything that much deader. And being fair with pressures minimizes alot of the 6.8's advantages.
And with the pressure problems we've seen in the 6.8, I'd think it's pretty close to max.
Being clumped in with the 30-30 power class ain't a bad thing, especially when it's in an AR-15.
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Nov 2003
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and so we continue on with the current fad of "let's shoehorn every available diameter bullet into a case that will fire in a a somewhat standard AR-15 upper"!! Fun? Why yes! Interesting? of course! Practical??? Arguable/maybe/sometimes? Significantly better? Mostly No. Do gun loony's need any sane reasons to do this? Hell no! That .50 beowolf is really interesting to me... 400 grain flat point 50 cal at 1800...Wow! If we could shoe horn 308 win power into a standard AR15 upper with a standard magazine then that really would be different.
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