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#5992339 - 01/02/12 AR 10 in .243 - Which Manufacturers?  
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Tarkio Offline
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Looking for an AR in .243. Who makes these?

I am looking at Armalite because they are the only manufacturer I know of beside DPMS which I am not interested in.

Who else makes them? Which do you suggest based on personal experience.

Any reasons not to go with the .243? I chose this because I like the versatility of the .243. Wanting something with a little more energy than the .223 but not so expensive and loud as a .308.

I found a .243 upper. Is building an AR 10 lower much different than building an AR 15?

Thanks.


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#5992404 - 01/02/12 Re: AR 10 in .243 - Which Manufacturers? [Re: Tarkio]  
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tex_n_cal Offline
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Armalite also has a 10T heavy barrel upper in .260 Rem, which allows for a bit heavier bullets. I have so far found Armalite's stainless barrels to be excellent, not so sure about their steel barrels.

AR10's vary more than 15's do, as far as manufacturer dimensions. Noveske and Armalite are compatable, DPMS and Bushy differ.


"...good barrels heal many sins..."

#5992704 - 01/02/12 Re: AR 10 in .243 - Which Manufacturers? [Re: tex_n_cal]  
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The receivers on the Armalite are made of 7075T6 aluminum, while the DPMS are made of 6061. Bushmaster/Remington do not specify which alloy they use in the .308 AR models but they do specify 7075 for the AR-15 (so does DPMS, BTW.) SO this leads me to believe that Bushmaster uses 6061 in their 308 ARs, unless somebody can point me to a Bushmaster link that says otherwise.

To me, that is a BIG differentiator, which is why my planned AR-10 build starts with Armalite receivers.

#5993287 - 01/02/12 Re: AR 10 in .243 - Which Manufacturers? [Re: FTR_Shooter]  
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Armalite and DPMS are just two to name a few for your big platform AR's. You can go the custom route and have a very nice firearm that will shoot bug holes guranteed. Look at Specialized Dynamics, Dedicated Technologies (DTech), and GAP just to get started naming a few. I just went through the same process. I am going with Specialized Dynamics. I have talked to Scott on the phone a few times and by email several times. He is building me a .260 that should be SWEET!!!!! I also have a 6.5 Grendel on the way built by him. All of these companies will build you a very fine 243. Good luck with whatever you choose

#5996008 - 01/03/12 Re: AR 10 in .243 - Which Manufacturers? [Re: drakeky]  
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hunt_ak Offline
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Except you cannot use the .308 Pmags with an Armalite, is that correct? Forgive my AR-10/LR308 ignorance...

#5996024 - 01/03/12 Re: AR 10 in .243 - Which Manufacturers? [Re: hunt_ak]  
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Absolutely correct: From Magpul's site:

"NOTE: NOT compatible with Armalite AR-10, Noveske N6, Rock River Arms LAR8, FN SCAR 17S or any other rifles that utilize M14 type, FN FAL, or HK 91/G3 magazines."


#5996362 - 01/03/12 Re: AR 10 in .243 - Which Manufacturers? [Re: FTR_Shooter]  
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XL5 Offline
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Going for a .243 WSSM instead would let you drop back to the AR-15 platform and gain ~200 fps. 6mm BR Norma also is good for the AR-15 but will cost you ~200 fps compared to the .243 Win.


Alle Fähigkeit ist vergeblich, wenn ein Engel in Ihrem Notenloch uriniert
-- old German proverb
#5996537 - 01/03/12 Re: AR 10 in .243 - Which Manufacturers? [Re: XL5]  
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I thought the 243wssm was about the same as the 243Win, not 200fps faster.

#5997182 - 01/03/12 Re: AR 10 in .243 - Which Manufacturers? [Re: TWR]  
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RyanScott Offline
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If you want an AR10 you have to buy it from Armalite because they are the maker of the AR10. If you want an AR pattern .243, you have other options, mostly semi custom.

#5997495 - 01/03/12 Re: AR 10 in .243 - Which Manufacturers? [Re: hunt_ak]  
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GoWyo Offline
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I just bought a used AR-10T in .243 with a 26" Rock bbl. First three shots were less than 1/2" at 100 yds. That was just for sighting in and with a run of the mil-spec trigger (I'm the third owner, previous owner took out the NM trigger, looking at several options now, leaning towards the Geissele HS match. I tend to like Armalite AR-10 platform guns over others. I don't know if it's near AR-15 mil spec aesthetics or their parkerization or what. I do jones for a p-mag that would fit instead of or in addition to the M-14 style. Are you listening Magpul??

Armalite still makes one in .243 win. Better decide right now what twist you want. Some of the long range crowd are going tighter twist to use the 107gr- 115gr pills. I've got a normal factory twist of 1/9 so I'll be limited to @100gr bullets.

Good luck.


"Damn right it's loaded, it makes a lousy club"
-JW
#5997668 - 01/03/12 Re: AR 10 in .243 - Which Manufacturers? [Re: TWR]  
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drakeky Offline
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Originally Posted by TWR
I thought the 243wssm was about the same as the 243Win, not 200fps faster.



They are very very close in the same. But the main difference in the AR scheme of things is the .243 is the big platform AR and the .243 wssm is the AR-15 (small) platform.

#5997846 - 01/03/12 Re: AR 10 in .243 - Which Manufacturers? [Re: drakeky]  
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TWR Offline
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Understood, XL5 said that you could gain 200fps, that was what I was questioning.

#6006158 - 01/05/12 Re: AR 10 in .243 - Which Manufacturers? [Re: TWR]  
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XL5 Offline
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The WSSM has the same or slightly more case capacity, and an additional 5000 SAAMI max psi. Even Browning couldn't screw that up.


Alle Fähigkeit ist vergeblich, wenn ein Engel in Ihrem Notenloch uriniert
-- old German proverb
#6007127 - 01/05/12 Re: AR 10 in .243 - Which Manufacturers? [Re: XL5]  
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TWR Offline
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Well, if we're talking factory ammo then yes I can see that.

But with the 243W case capacity of 52.8 grs and the 243WSSM at 53 grs, I just don't see the difference when one loads both to safe but like pressures. Trust me if Rem had chambered the 243wssm in their 7400 autoloader the pressures would be the same. In an AR-10, weight would be the only difference for a reloader.

Reason it stood out, I just got through dealing with all the options as it's time to rebarrel a 223wssm.

#6010918 - 01/06/12 Re: AR 10 in .243 - Which Manufacturers? [Re: FTR_Shooter]  
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Originally Posted by FTR_Shooter
The receivers on the Armalite are made of 7075T6 aluminum, while the DPMS are made of 6061. Bushmaster/Remington do not specify which alloy they use in the .308 AR models but they do specify 7075 for the AR-15 (so does DPMS, BTW.) SO this leads me to believe that Bushmaster uses 6061 in their 308 ARs, unless somebody can point me to a Bushmaster link that says otherwise.

To me, that is a BIG differentiator, which is why my planned AR-10 build starts with Armalite receivers.


Why do you care what alloy they use? I asked Jason at Quentin Defense about it. He told me that in a billet lower there was no reason to use anything other than 6061 T6. He said that 7075 was used in some AR 308 platforms that used FORGED receivers as it can be forged. He said that the strength is a non-issue as there are plenty of PLASTIC lowers out there! I thought that was a pretty compelling argument to use 6061.


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#6011004 - 01/06/12 Re: AR 10 in .243 - Which Manufacturers? [Re: dennisinaz]  
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Rusky Offline
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"AR-10 build starts with Armalite receivers."

Thats what I think too.

Last edited by Rusky; 01/06/12.
#6012169 - 01/07/12 Re: AR 10 in .243 - Which Manufacturers? [Re: Rusky]  
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Mine started with a POF lower.


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Those who live by the sword get shot by those who don't.

#6012829 - 01/07/12 Re: AR 10 in .243 - Which Manufacturers? [Re: dennisinaz]  
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Mine started out DPMS .243 lr. Funny, I haven't changed a thing except the trigger.

Last edited by cheechako; 01/07/12.

A bore is a man that opens his mouth and puts his feats in it. -Henry Ford.
#6013948 - 01/07/12 Re: AR 10 in .243 - Which Manufacturers? [Re: cheechako]  
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dennissinaz you do not have an AR-10, you have something built on a P308 lower. cheechako, you do not have an AR-10 you have something built on a LR-308 lower.

Only Armalite makes the AR-10.

Now dennussinaz, I have no clue who Justin at Quentin Defense is, and while I'm sure he's a nice guy, everyone has opinions and if he is selling billet lowers, then you can be sure he will say they are the best and there is no need for forged receivers.

This is the same thing we find with people who sell piston ARS when they say piston is the only way to go. Or people who sell hammer forged barrels, or people who sell cut barrels or people who sell button-rifled barrels. According to these people their way is the best, their product is the best and the others are not nneded.

If forged was not needed, why does DPMS offer all their AR-15 receivers as forged? I would think the AR-15 shooting the diminutive .223 Rem will certainly not need to deal with stresses greater than an AR-type rifle firing the much larger .308 Win.

#6014419 - 01/07/12 Re: AR 10 in .243 - Which Manufacturers? [Re: FTR_Shooter]  
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FTR, Im no metal smith but, Im pretty sure that all the forged aluminum parts are cheaper to produce. Forging is a process in which you take metal (in this case aluminum) melt it down and pour it into a mold, and then you take it out and machine it into what you want. That being said they can use scrap aluminum and that is why it is cheaper to produce also there is less machining with forged parts as opposed to billet parts.

I agree that when someone wants to sell you something they will tell you anything to get it done. (I.e. Billet parts are the best). What you are saying about Armalite is right also hence AR (Armalite rifle) but, the term has now morphed into a catch all phrase.

As far as which is the best, you would have to go to a metallurgy book and look up the properties of the aluminum I.E. 7075/6061 because those numbers mean how much pure aluminum is in the part, 70% 7%, 5% or 60%,6%, 1% along with other alloys that are in it (chromium, vanadium Ext.) Then determine what is needed for your purpose.

We wont go into heat treating and the machining process as that will take a long time. Also my explanation on the numbers for the aluminum and alloys was short and to the point but by no means comprehensive. Have a nice night:)


D
#6014567 - 01/07/12 Re: AR 10 in .243 - Which Manufacturers? [Re: Kinsman]  
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I have a friend who has a DPMS Panther 243 he is trying to sell right now for no other reason than he thinks it's to heavy.It is capable of amazing small groups right from the factory with the add'n of a scope. For $975 with accessory BIUS that cost $215 it looked like a good buy. Not sure why you have to build what you can just buy for less cost than a build. Magnum Man

#6015380 - 01/08/12 Re: AR 10 in .243 - Which Manufacturers? [Re: Magnum_Man]  
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Kinsman, you make eminent sense. I also am not a metal smith nor a metalurgist. But I am able to gather data, analyse it and detect trends. 6061 aluminum is used in billets which are then CNC machined into very nice receivers. Billets are more expensive to make because there is a lot more material to remove.

7075/7175 aluminum is about twice as strong as 6061 is and it is forged because it is not as machinable as 6061. Forging also strengthens the aluminum further. Forging is cheaper because less material is removed since the receiver is closer to its final shape than when starting from a billet.

I note that the companies who use 6061 in their 308 model receivers readily highlight the use of 7075/7175 aluminum in the AR-15 receivers. The ones that do not highlight the type of aluminum used in their 308 receivers just say "space age" or "aircraft grade" aluminum and to me that translates to 6061. Could it be that the AR-15 marketplace is more competitive than the "AR-10" one.

I completely agree the stresses placed on AR receivers are easily handled by either types of aluminum, but I also know that 7075/7175 is stronger (read more durable) than 6061.

Armalite alone produces the AR-10 and they are happy to tell you the lower receivers are made of forged 7175-T73 aluminum and the upper receivers are made of forged 7175-T74 aluminum.

#6015685 - 01/08/12 Re: AR 10 in .243 - Which Manufacturers? [Re: FTR_Shooter]  
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Originally Posted by FTR_Shooter
dennissinaz you do not have an AR-10, you have something built on a P308 lower. cheechako, you do not have an AR-10 you have something built on a LR-308 lower.

Only Armalite makes the AR-10.

Now dennussinaz, I have no clue who Justin at Quentin Defense is, and while I'm sure he's a nice guy, everyone has opinions and if he is selling billet lowers, then you can be sure he will say they are the best and there is no need for forged receivers.

This is the same thing we find with people who sell piston ARS when they say piston is the only way to go. Or people who sell hammer forged barrels, or people who sell cut barrels or people who sell button-rifled barrels. According to these people their way is the best, their product is the best and the others are not nneded.

If forged was not needed, why does DPMS offer all their AR-15 receivers as forged? I would think the AR-15 shooting the diminutive .223 Rem will certainly not need to deal with stresses greater than an AR-type rifle firing the much larger .308 Win.


Quentin defense manufactures lowers, uppers and complete rifles. They have several large Govt. contracts. I have shot many AR-15 type rifles that have plastic, composite or whatever you want to call them, lowers. His point and mine is that the lower does not need to be made of 7000 series aluminum to be strong enough. A billet lower made of 6061 is several times stronger than a composite one.


7074 is used because it is a CHEAPER manufacturing process when one is making enough volume to justify the machinery. Apparently 6061 is not well suited to forging. Don't ever confuse yourself that a DPMS lower is the equivalent to a POF, Sun Devil, Quentin Defense, Seekins precision et al. They are all billet and with the exception of Seekins, are made of 6061. As far as the piston system. I won't get into that argument. I can see it both ways. I am not building a piston gun but rather a direct impingement system gun.

I agree that my rifle is NOT an AR-10, I was just tacking onto his post. Most accurately, it is an AR-260Rem (or will be). Fundamentally, however, they are the same. Only thing is the parts aren't interchangeable.


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#6015812 - 01/08/12 Re: AR 10 in .243 - Which Manufacturers? [Re: dennisinaz]  
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In low volumes, billet is most likely cheaper to make. No cost of forging dies to amortize into your production costs. Put the blank in the machine, program it, walk away. ten parts later you decide to tweak the design, you can do so with a programming change, no need to remake the expensive dies.


"...good barrels heal many sins..."

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