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Originally Posted by Valorius
BTW, i had arranged to have some 5.7mm Elite ammo tested by Doctor Gary Roberts, at my own expense, however the owner of Elite ammo told me personally he did not think Roberts was capable of a fair review based on his own previous correspondence with the man. In my own dealings with him on other forums, i have found Doc Roberts, DDS, to be very dismissive and close-minded.

This is afterall a man that told me point blank that the legendary 125gr SJHP .357 magnum loading was a bad choice for self defense. (There are literally thousands of dead criminals that would no doubt strongly disagree with that contention).

I respect roberts opinions, but he has freely admitted to never having tested SS192, SS195, SS197SR, or any Elite load offered in 5.7mm, ever, not a single time. Even to this day.

Elite paid out of it's own pocket to have an independent and highly respected ballistics laboratory test two of their rounds (they've also tested SS192 and SS195LF), and those results have been posted online for anyone who is interested to see.

In those tests, Elite S4M ammunition exhibited 12-14" of penetration, ALL S4, SS192 and SS195 rounds tested exhibited destructive tumbling effects (which is clearly seen in the videos posted in this thread) and FBI required 12+" of penetration.

In it's summary, Brassfetcher stated, and i quote:

"As tested, both Elite cartridges (S4M and Protector II) offer lethality that is on par with, or slightly greater than, a 230gr .45 ACP JHP."


http://www.eliteammunition.net/f/Eli...Performance_Su mmary.pdf


I agree with Doctor Roberts, I will not use the 125 gain JHP in a 357 the 158 is a much better choice for any and all situation that may be encountered




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Originally Posted by tex_n_cal
uy posing as several different people, but with similar writing styles smile

Uh, yeah...that's it.

I live in Pa, ask the mod to run our IP's.


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Originally Posted by jwp475


I agree with Doctor Roberts, I will not use the 125 gain JHP in a 357 the 158 is a much better choice for any and all situation that may be encountered

I'm glad you agree with the friendly dentist that a slightly heavier bullet at a slightly slower velocity is "a much better choice" (Much better- really? The differences between the two are miniscule, when comparing weight and velocity alone), but anyone with a half a brain knows that the 125 gr SJHP is most decidedly NOT a bad choice for personal self defense.

The bullet did not become a legendary police "manstopper" because it doesn't work.

With regard to .357 magnum weights and anti-human self defense needs, i would select the Barnes 125gr solid copper hollowpoint over any lead 158hp made anywhere- ever. Much like Roberts, i like this Barnes bullet in pretty much every caliber offered, and use it in my .380s and 9mm's.

In 5.7mm, i use Elite S4M out of my FsN pistol. This round shows real world independent velocities in the 2550 fps range with a stock threaded barrel (and just about 2500 fps flat in a standard barrel). This round penetrates over 12" in all the gel tests ive seen. Both from Brassfetcher and in various user posted videos. Due to the nature of spitzer bullets, it is going to yaw and tumble in flesh. It's simple physics, and all the videos bear this out. Given that the bullet is almost an inch long, we are talking about a pretty significant wound channel, even if the jacket doesn't fragment at all.

Oh yeah...and it'll defeat the best soft body armor on the market like it's not even there. (Elite advertises 30 layers of kevlar penetration from the FsN pistol. I have personally shot much less powerful SS192 which uses the same bullet as the S4M but at 2100fps through 48 layers of kevlar)

Anyone can go on ebay and buy police trade in concealment armor for peanuts. Sometimes under $100. So the possibility is very real that a home invader might use it.

I'd rather be secure in knowing that my home defense weapon of choice will blow through his surplus armor like a knife through hot butter, thank you very much.

Just to give a comparison, I've fired the following rounds in recent tests against a 20+ year old Level IIA vest panel composed of just 12 layers of kevlar:

Guns used were HK P7 in 9mm, Glock 20 in 10mm, Colt 1991A1 in .45acp, FN Five SeveN in 5.7mm:

10mm Nosler 180gr JHP: No penetration
.45 ACP 230gr Winchester Ranger T JHP: No penetration
9mm Corbon 115gr+P: No penetration
9mm Buffalo Bore 115gr+P+ (Montana gold HP): Clean penetration
FN 5.7mm 40gr Vmax (SS197SR): Partial penetration
FN "blue box" SS195 28gr OTM (1900fps): Clean penetration

After this test, i folded the panel over on itself (24 layers- most Level IIIA vests are about 20-25 layers), and re-shot it.

9mm Buffalo Bore 115gr+P+: No penetration
FN "blue box" SS195 28gr OTM (1900fps): No penetration

So out comes the powerful 5.7mm rounds....

FN SS192 28gr OTM (2100fps): Clean Penetration

So i folded it over on itself again....48 total layers:

FN SS192 28gr OTM (2100fps): Clean penetration

Elite S4M uses the same bullet at 2500fps.

Last edited by Valorius; 12/20/11.

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Originally Posted by whitepaper

... I'm merely trying to get some solid answers as you are...

...And again if I haven't already mentioned it, I will greatly welcome any further data and testing on this round, as long as it isnt' 20yrs old, and about a discontinued bullet smile


Thanks for your reply.

I am busy and unable to reply to all your points, but in sum it would appear that we are in agreement on more of these discussion points than we disagree on.

I will also greatly welcome any further data and testing, and as stated previously, am in full agreement that it needs to be current and follows standard protocols. Data from real shootings is a lot harder to get at, but I'm working on it.


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By the way, the HK MP7 which uses the 4.6x30mm PDW round is in use with SOCOM and the USN SEALs.

The FN P90 is (or was) in use by the US Secret Service uniformed white house security force as their primary weapon. For about a decade now.

If it's good enough to protect the President, it's good enough to protect me too... wink


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What was behind the Kevlar vest in your penetration tests? What about trauma plates?


I like the Barnes 185 XPB in the 45 ACP at 1100 PS, I don't like the 110 Barnes in the 38 Splc. Not really a fan of the 180 in the 41 mag, at least not at the velocity that Federal loads them, faster would make them better IMHO. I have some 140's in 357 but have not tested them as yet. I have not tested the 125's from Barnes in the 357 as yet.

But I have tested a lot of ammo and bullets and shot a lot of game and my statements stand on the 125 JHP VS a 158 I'll take the 158 every time. These are lead core bullets that I am talking about


Last edited by jwp475; 12/20/11.


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Originally Posted by jwp475

What was behind the Kevlar vest in your penetration tests? What about trauma plates?


Well, that's a pretty important question, but I think we can cut to the chase and predict that 1) the zippy 5.7 rounds would penetrate not only Level II kevlar, but Level IIIA kevlar no matter what you put behind them, and 2) some trauma plates will defeat the 5.7mm rounds, but not all.

It's virtually axiomatic that light, fast bullets penetrate armor very well. What they do past the armor is what you really need to test.

Originally Posted by jwp475

I have not tested the 125's from Barnes in the 357 as yet.

But I have tested a lot of ammo and bullets and shot a lot of game and my statements stand on the 125 JHP VS a 158 I'll take the 158 every time. These are lead core bullets that I am talking about


I've "tested" 357 Mag Barnes 125 gr ammo on Level IIIA armor and in gelatin. (I use the word loosely; I didn't follow full protocol, so it hardly counts as a "test". It was more of a matter of satisfying my curiosity and I wouldn't say it has any validity worthy of publication.) It doesn't penetrate the armor. But it does perform very well indeed in 10% gelatin.

The old 125 gr SJHP load that "made" the 357 Mag's reputation as a manstopper was not a particularly good round, by current testing standards. It was a LOT better than the lead roundnose and SWC bullets previously in favor with law enforcement prior to the 125 SJHP's introduction and widespread use, though.


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@jwp475:

I used a 5 gallon water jug behind the armor panel so it would have something to hold it in place, but something that would give a little too, like a torso would.

I have since obtained several flat UL rated ballistic fiberglass hard plates in UL stand alone level I, II and III.

In conversations with the owner of the armor company, he said that to stop 5.56mm fire you need to use 3 sheets of the level III (9/16" thick) to defeat M855 green tip. So i expect that probably 2 plates will defeat a hot 5.7mm round, but i've not yet tested it. I did test the Level I (5/16") plate against a 115gr 9mm FMJ round, and the Level I plate stopped it dead cold, without any spalling or back face deformation.

I've not shot anything living with it yet, in the way of game animals, but others have posted numerous videos or photos/accounts of 5.7mm used in this role, and none have reported that it failed to do the job, even against big feral pigs and white tail deer.

I started out a skeptic when it comes to the 5.7mm, but as the data (as opposed to internet rumor and lore) started to come in, it became very clear that the 5.7mm is far, far more than just "a souped up .22 magnum", as many derisively claim.


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