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I have never been to Argentina but know of a few outfitters there all use Benelli's. I have shot in Mexico and have never seen or heard of any outfitter there that uses Remingtons. All I have seen or heard of is Benelli's and Beretta's. I am sure some small volume outfitters may use Remingtons but they are without a doubt at a disadvantage and minority.

As to cleaning, I basically never clean my Benelli's. I keep water off them and shoot the hell out of them. Try that with a Remington!


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Have known at least 20 individuals who went to Argentina and used the house guns. 12 and in many cases 20g Beretta's were the offerings.

Go to a heavily used SC course that offers shotguns for rent-like 30 to 40-and see what you get. Then ask them why there are none or very few Remington 1100s.


Addition: Not sure about trap or skeet, but in SC competition you are allowed two malfunctions at which time they let you shoot the targets again. After the third it is a lost bird each time. Nice to not have to worry if your shotgun has to be spotlessly clean to keep working. Especially when you may have to shoot 200 plus shells in a day and cleaning time is at a premium.

However, back to the question. If Remington 1100s are as good or better than the Beretta/Benelli, how come they are not even close to being as popular with the shooters who burn more than a few primers each year or does first hand experience account for little?

Last edited by battue; 02/20/12.

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I am intrested in what makes a 1100 point so well. Does it point the best for all size and body shapes? Are beretta and Benelli barrels bent or something? Oh and like Battue said if they are the best pointing guns why don't you see them on the sporting clays courses? I can name more then a few in the top 25 sporting clays All-American list that shoot Beretta's and can't think of one in the top 100 that shoot a Remington. Whats say you?


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MCH I have to agree for me they point great as a field shotgun. The 12s are too heavy for me in the uplands, but the 20 and 28 I find nice.

All that being said, and depending on what one considers a good pointer, reliability is still the question. 10 to 20 thousand rounds a year is where the race starts and Remington 1100s of recent vintage can't compete and why for the most part they don't.

Some will say they don't shoot that much. Doesn't change the fact which one will with the least problems.

Last edited by battue; 02/20/12.

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Originally Posted by MontanaCreekHunter
I am intrested in what makes a 1100 point so well. Does it point the best for all size and body shapes?
I can only say they don't 'point' all that well for me.. smile I tried one for 5 shells at the trap range and missed all of 'em.. MUST have been the gun, naturally.. laugh laugh
Quote
Are beretta and Benelli barrels bent or something? Oh and like Battue said if they are the best pointing guns why don't you see them on the sporting clays courses? I can name more then a few in the top 25 sporting clays All-American list that shoot Beretta's and can't think of one in the top 100 that shoot a Remington. Whats say you?
I would bet that part (emphasis there) of the reason it's not known as a true competition gun.. And those who compete look down on anyone who would dare to show up with a common Remington...

I ran into that snobbery a few times years ago when I shot in ATA tournaments.. If you didn't carry a 'P' or 'K' gun, you wouldn't get so much as the time of day.. That was a big part of the reason I quit shooting in ATA events.. That, and the games these fools would play with squad pairings, 'laying in the weeds' with shooting a lower score on purpose.. Who needs it..


Besides, I have tons more fun, spend a LOT less, and win more often in turkey shoots.. YMMV..


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My only experience with an 11-87 is the last I'll have with one, and that was 21 years ago. A pheasant hunt, it was raining, and the lodge where we stayed had a couple new loaner 11-87s, not Wally World specials. I took one to save my double from a rainy morning (still regret doing so), and it turned out to be a tremendous morning for birds and dogs, but I couldn't cut a feather.

Frustrated, I shot into a dirt bank about 25 yards away, and found my trouble...it hit about 2' below point of aim (looking along a flat rib). I thought maybe I'd flinched, tried again, found I hadn't - same POI. On my shorthair's next point, I pulled unnaturally above the bird and killed it. Did that again, same technique. The barrel looked straight, but sure didn't shoot that way; I couldn't get rid of it fast enough. That, and it handled with the grace of a 2x4. I suspect it had a poor cut choke that threw the charge low, but who knows?

The 11-87 does not have the same feel to me as the 1100 either, as I usually find them agreeable and still have a fairly light one for kids to shoot. Dunno on whether the action is more reliable, and I'll trust the opinion of those with more experience than I on that.

As others have said here, what I do know is that Remingtons of any ilk are pretty scarce on target courses these days, but you see lots of Berettas.

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Originally Posted by Redneck
I would bet that part (emphasis there) of the reason it's not known as a true competition gun.. And those who compete look down on anyone who would dare to show up with a common Remington...



Would be the exception from what I've seen and the AHs quickly rise to the surface.

Beretta 390s series shotguns are by far the common shotguns of SC and have more in common with an 1100 than a Perazzi. In 15 or so years of shooting SC have yet to here any mention anothers shotgun in a derogatory way. With the exception of those that pimp them to the point of being ugly. Which is done for the most part on the Perazzi and Krieghoffs.

One Ohio fellow can beat most all but the best with an 870pump, and none look down on him for using one.


Last edited by battue; 02/20/12.

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Originally Posted by battue
Nice to not have to worry if your shotgun has to be spotlessly clean to keep working. Especially when you may have to shoot 200 plus shells in a day and cleaning time is at a premium.

They don't have to be spotlessly clean to shoot well over 200 shells, believe me. You just have to know how to clean them. wink Not being a wise guy here. Ferinstance a common problem I've seen is carbon buildup in the gas ring which eats O-rings. Often it's smooth and looks like blued metal so you have to know what you're looking for. And it takes a lot of shooting for the carbon to build up that much. A few twists of a gas ring brush during routine cleaning prevents buildup but how many do that.

I wouldn't select an 1100 for class and there are shotguns that handle (for me anyway), three times better but at three times the cost. But for general use the 1100 is a pretty good deal.


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Which explains a lot.
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BTW, one of my shooters took first place in the state 4-H trap shoot, junior division, with one of those trashy 11-87's.


The key elements in human thinking are not numbers but labels of fuzzy sets. -- L. Zadeh

Which explains a lot.
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I was the field boy for a trap and skeet range, and shot 8 boxes of shells every Saturday, reloaded them Saturday night and shot them again Sunday morning. That's 400 rounds a week, 20,000 a year from the time I was in Junior High school to the time I went to college. I tried out for the Olympic training camp against a kid named Web Goodman, who also used a Rem 1100. He beat me and went to camp. I didn't. The best shot in our club Frank Petty used a .410 1100 and would break 100 birds straight. I never had a misfire. Pulling birds, I never saw a misfire that wasn't due to a bad primer. I've shot sporting clays with folks who use Perazzis and Krieghoffs who have asked to use my 1100 because their arms were getting sore! I've also had people borrow my 1100 to shoot their split shells they couldn't fit into their doubles. My 8th grade science teacher, who talked my Mom into letting me get mine when I was 12, said you could stuff beer cans into it and it would fire them.

Philip Bourgaily of Field and Stream writes the shotgun column and I have read articles on wing shooting and I've always seen 11-87s and A-391s. I can tell you having put a lot of shells through them, and getting a lot of positive affirmation from what I've read on them, I wouldn't hesitate to buy one of the 11-87 premiers or 1100s. I teach hunter safety here twice a year and recommend them to people starting out.


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MCH & battue I've got no reason to disagree regarding the superior reliability and longevity of the newer Italian guns You both say you shoot the Italian guns, you sound like you know what you're talking about and I've read and heard it elsewhere as well.

I've never shot two hundred rounds in a day more than a couple of times that I recall. Also I probably don't shoot more than 2,500/3,000 rounds a year total so my opinion is based on not being a high volume shooter but a lot of shotgun owners don't shoot as much as I do.

This year I dove hunted and did some preserve chukar and pheasant shooting. Between Sept. 1st. & Dec 26 I put over a flat of shells for that through my early 80s Lt 20 1100, which I bought used. Other than wiping off the outside I never cleaned it and it never malfunctioned. I also don't have any trouble getting through four boxes of shells problem free for skeet, trap or SC in my other 1100s and don't clean them every time out either.

I'd agree that if the OP likes the Italian guns, and money's no problem and/or he's a high volume 10 to 20 thousand rounds a year shooter he should be probably be getting an Italian gun. If that's not the case, and he finds and likes a used 1100 that will reliably fill his needs for a lot less why not give it a try?

Remington's done something right with the 1100. It's been around since 1963, they've sold millions of them and they're still selling them.

Last edited by 43Shooter; 02/20/12.
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Some may think I wish Remington and the 1100 ill. Quite the contrary, I would like to see them dominate the semi-auto market. Not only in the clays games but in the field also. However, like much Remington does that sat on there hands and watched the Italians pass them. They didn't keep up with new more reliable gas systems. They didn't promote up and coming shooters in the clay games. They didn't promote shoots. They raised the price of their competition shells-Winchester did the same-to the point that even they are not used all that often. Just checked Cabela's pricing. $69 dollar a flat for the low end Field Club loads. $89 a flat for the good 12g STS target loads. $129. for the 28 and .410. It seems like they enjoy driving away people away.

I do think the older 1100s are more reliable than the newer ones. The 1100 Sporting Clay model that I used for maybe 2years was not worth cleaning when I got rid of it.





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Rob p I didn't see you mention anything about trap doubles. So of course the gun isn't going to have a problem. Every trap shoot I have ever been to you could only load one round. So yes unless its a bad primer there isn't much that really can go wrong (for the most part). Also you are from RI and I have never seen a post about shooting at Peace Dale, Addieville, or Wallum Lake Rod&Gun club. Of course Richie isn't truly running Peace Dale anymore but back in the hayday if you wanted tournament targets and to practice FITASC that was the place to go. Having Addieville in your backyard and not using it to me is a crime. I admit I haven't shot at Wallum in a bunch of years but they had moments of great targets too. RI is a very good state to live in if you are a shotgunner.

43shooter I have nothing against Remington's. I just feel that there are better options out there. Are they going to compete when high volumn shooting is involved? NO. Are they a decent hunting gun for the average low volumn shooter? Sure. In the 60's and 70's they were at the top of the list. As far as them still selling and people still having an affection with them. I chalk that up to what they were used to, familar with, and had been brough up on. However if you stand still the world will pass you by.

Battue my point on pointablity was/is that what feels great to you isn't going to feel great to me. Our size and body shape is just to far off.


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When I say I don't clean my gun I mean I literally don't clean it. The last time I had cleaned it prior to this hunting season it had over 6K rounds thru it. That is more then a few flats. So barring duck season it doesn't get anything more then a whip down of the outside of the barrel with some oil on a rag.


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Originally Posted by Oldelkhunter
I am positive all the Dove guides in Argentina and Mexico sold off their Benellis and Berettas and stocked up on 1100's. grin


"ALL" is a pretty encompassing term and it leads me to doubt your claim. It's sure not consistent with what I'm hearing from people who hunt down there, not having been myself.

Don't get me wrong, I have several 1100's and have used them for many years. If one doesn't mind some fixing and a few parts here and there, 1100's are nice, easy shooting guns. I once had an 11-87, but sold it. It handled like a club and was before they came out with the lighter, 1100 wt. barrels. I have a Benelli M2 and like it a lot.

The new Beretta 400 Xplor sure looks good and handles nice. I would love to have one. Almost traded for one last year, just didn't quite get it done. Does anyone have experience with this gun?

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Not the Xplor, but the Xcell. First will handle 3.5in and the second 3in. Other than that they are the same shotgun.

So far I have approximately 2000 rounds through it and have had one hiccup on a cold day when the shells I was using-1oz @ 1200fps-had lost some steam from being out in the cold.

Has the KO system in the stock and recoil is the softest of any 12Ga I have used.
Last Friday I shot 550rounds in perhaps 2 1/2hours. At times you couldn't keep hold of the barrel due to the heat. No shoulder or neck discomfort at the end.

So far cleaning has consisted of a bore snake through the barrel each time with attention paid to the chamber and wiping off carbon from the rod the piston rides on. Wipe it down and put it in the case.

I like it.

Last edited by battue; 02/20/12.

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I shot everything. Trap, skeet, sporting clays, birds, deer, bunnies... Anything you can think of. I've popped off 3 rounds at ducks and geese many many times in wet, freezing conditions... I shot bowling pins at Peacedale 25 years ago. I went to school with John Barnes, who's wife worked at Addieville. I've never been there. I've never been interested in paying $$$ for English style (low gun) shooting lessons or popping dizzied pen raised birds. I hunt with the former Pres of Wallum Lake and have been there a couple times for my archery proficiency tests. It's as far away as you can get from me and still be in R.I. I've been to every shooting venue here and in Southern MA for one competition or another. Archery mostly these days. I'm done arguing the point. I have 25 years experience with the gun and have had no problems with it. Nor has anyone I have ever known. This back and forth crap isn't for me. I've defended my point more than I feel I should need to.


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Originally Posted by Dirtfarmer
Originally Posted by Oldelkhunter
I am positive all the Dove guides in Argentina and Mexico sold off their Benellis and Berettas and stocked up on 1100's. grin


"ALL" is a pretty encompassing term and it leads me to doubt your claim. It's sure not consistent with what I'm hearing from people who hunt down there, not having been myself



DF


Just check and see what the "rental" guns are at most of these places . You can imagine how many thousands a round a month these go thru and you tell me.

A link to what one place rents

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Originally Posted by Oldelkhunter
Originally Posted by Dirtfarmer
Originally Posted by Oldelkhunter
I am positive all the Dove guides in Argentina and Mexico sold off their Benellis and Berettas and stocked up on 1100's. grin


"ALL" is a pretty encompassing term and it leads me to doubt your claim. It's sure not consistent with what I'm hearing from people who hunt down there, not having been myself



DF


Just check and see what the "rental" guns are at most of these places . You can imagine how many thousands a round a month these go thru and you tell me.

A link to what one place rents


I checked your link and see a couple of Merkel double guns, the rest, Beretta's and Benelli's, autos and double guns. You sorta killed your argument that ALL had gone to 1100's. Seems like this place has no 1100's for rent.

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Originally Posted by Dirtfarmer
Originally Posted by Oldelkhunter
Originally Posted by Dirtfarmer
Originally Posted by Oldelkhunter
I am positive all the Dove guides in Argentina and Mexico sold off their Benellis and Berettas and stocked up on 1100's. grin


"ALL" is a pretty encompassing term and it leads me to doubt your claim. It's sure not consistent with what I'm hearing from people who hunt down there, not having been myself



DF


Just check and see what the "rental" guns are at most of these places . You can imagine how many thousands a round a month these go thru and you tell me.

A link to what one place rents


I checked your link and see a couple of Merkel double guns, the rest, Beretta's and Benelli's, autos and double guns. You sorta killed your argument that ALL had gone to 1100's. Seems like this place has no 1100's for rent.

DF



I am positive all the Dove guides in Argentina and Mexico sold off their Benellis and Berettas and stocked up on 1100's.
_________________________

The above comment was meant to be sarcastic..you did see the grin correct?. Your response tells me you didn't bother reading my posts concerning this subject as well

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