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JJ,

I don't think you've swayed anyone into giving up their sub 30s or 7RMs........give the sermon a rest dude!


It's a discussion board. The idea being to hear the other guy out, not shut him up. Read, consider, decide for yourself. It's how we all learn.

JJHack's opinions are based on immense experience. Whether you ultimately agree with him or not, they are worth hearing and considering.


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Like on "Road House" opinions vary!To say you need a .30 caliber or larger for Elk,is non-sense.To say a 30-06 won't work on Brown Bears is also non-sense.All in the eyes of the beholder.Some say the .338 is the best Elk Medicine around and others say different.My neighbor has shot more Elk than most with a 25-06 and my 84 year old friend whom was on my first Elk hunt in the Selway-Bitteroots of Ideeho has used nothing but a .270 and 30-06 to take probably 50-60 Elk.He does pack in every year to good country but as he told me last year..It is getting hard to get back on the horse. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I have seen Elk absorb 30-06 ammo but wrong bullet and weight as well as the 7MM and others and the old .300 Savage/30-30/25-35/32 special/35 remington put them down in one shot.....

For many years I was a .270 shooter period..It just worked with 130 Nosler Partitions put inthe right spot.I now own a .300 Win Mag and it has a small edge on the .270 if the bullet goes in where it is supposed to.The .375/.338 does not kill any better than a .300 or .30-06 with the same shot placement and a "QUALITY" bullet.

You certainly do not want to get into Sectional Density as the .308 has better SD than the .338 and .375 even the 300 grain .338 is just below the 250 .308 in SD for SD believers.

SHOT PLACEMENT is everything along with a well constructed bullet.The 22-250/.243 all red lettered(JJ's Red Line <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />) deer bullets have killed alot of Elk in Idaho.
I used the 45-70 with 300 grain barnes last year for 90% penetration on a Bull Elk.It penetrated 90% of his body and "Exited" with instant death.....

Line up ten Gun Writers/Guides/Packers and the locals that live there and you will get umpteen answers is to what is best.In the lower 48 nothing over .308 is needed and the .308 works just fine in Alaska infact the 30-06 is the #1 choice with the .300 Win Mag second....
[Linked Image]

The old timers that fed there families off of lessor calibers would be rolling in there graves if they heard this non-sense on calibers and bullets it takes to kill larger than Deer animals...To many magazines and articles on which wiz-bang is best, rather than the people that do it for necessity not money.

Jayco <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

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Interesting chart, only three choices in the top ten under .308

1623 hunters
1338 at or over .308
285 under .308

only about 1 in 6 choose a sub 30 caliber rifle less then 20% .............Hmmmmm where have I heard this before? I think this cross section of folks who are hunting big game in tough conditions understand the situation pretty well!

Look at the drop in hunters using the 7mm mag compared to the top three. Less then 1/2 as many!


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"7MM HIT EM AGAIN"..I love that one and pass it on as often as I can.Your best analogy in my opinion..Seen it with my own eyes also. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/help.gif" alt="" />

Jayco <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

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� Like I said, I love that Bob, so while the 100 grain Speer load is super accurate in my Bob, I'm busy right now working up a 120 grain Partition load�


Puddle �

I started out with the 120s in my .257 Roberts [Edited for correction, did read "7mm Mag"], as well as the 115g TSX. H4831SC and H4350 have served me well in terms of accuracy and velocity, but no game taken yet.

All +P max loads, so be careful:

115g TSX, H4831SC = 2958fps
115g TSX, H4350 = 3013fps
120g Grand Slam, H4831SC = 2899fps
120g Partition, H831SC = 2904fps
120g A-Frame, H4831SC = 2947fps

If I was taking the gun hunting tomorrow I would take the A-Frames.

Last edited by Coyote_Hunter; 11/13/05.

Coyote Hunter - NRA Patriot Life, NRA Whittington Center Life, GOA, DAD - and I VOTE!

No, I'm not a Ruger bigot - just an unabashed fan of their revolvers, M77's and #1's.

A good .30-06 is a 99% solution.
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Coyote_Hunter,


Thanks for the load data. Tomorrow I'm testing 15 rounds of 120 gr. Partitions loaded thusly:

5 rounds of 43 gr. H4350
5 rounds of 43.5 gr. H4350
5 rounds of 44 gr. H4350

All at the same seating depth. Mule Deer suggested this load.

pud


It's you and the bullet, and all the rest is secondary.
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This time I'll add something relevant. I shot a good muley buck a few years back with my .375 H&H. Had decided to try the then-new 260 gr. Nosler B.T. I forget the exact yardage, something a little past 100 yards, or so. Broadside, no big bones hit, clean pass through and not one drop of blood spilled until a few feet of the downed buck. This after he ran up and out of the draw. Had I been hunting in the hills where things can be extremely thick, it would have been very tough to find this deer. In defense of my .375 I would say that this was a bit of a bullet mis-match, or was it? I might have had better or quicker results had I busted large bone.

Conversely, I've shot many deer, whitetails and muley with .223's and 6mm's. This before the age of "premiums". Ninety nine percent of them hit in the heart lung area and were literally bam-flops. I'm no expert now and was even further away from it at 12 and 13 years old. Yet never had trouble filling tags. 'Sticks ranking puts it about as simple as it can be put. Where people set themselves up for failure, as JJ and others have eluded to, is going into the field with an incomplete and/or faulty expectation/understanding of what pick-your-favorite-bullet will do when it impacts a game animal from whatever angle from whatever distance and whatever velocity having been shot from whatever cartridge/rifle/handgun combination. Increased understanding, however obtained, would result in less horror stories regardless of bullet diameter, fwiw. Good luck, Troy

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30 cal + holes don't mean there'll be blood trails especially on elk. The last elk I saw shot with a 243 was at 210 yds, blood shot out his nose and mouth like coming from a garden hose, he didn't make 15 yds. Saw a cow elk hit at 219 yds with 270 gr 375 H&H there wasn't a spot of blood on the outside of her, she went 50 yds before falling over. Saw a spike elk hit with 154 gr 7x57 at 150 yds , there was a hole thru both shoulders and he almost beat his shadow to the ground. The bull I shot this year with the 405 at 151 yds didn't have any blood on his hair either. Little raghorn bull hit with 350 gr bullets from a hot loaded 45-70 , not enough blood outside to matter. Saw 3 cow elk shot this past week , 1 with an 06 and premium bullets, the other 2 with 300 something or nothers, there was blood everywhere, mostly on account of the vast amount of bullet holes in them.
Like BigStick said it don't matter a whole lot what you hit em with, it's more about putting the bullet where it'll do the most good.


the most expensive bullet there is isn't worth a plug nickel if it don't go where its supposed to.
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Interesting chart, only three choices in the top ten under .308

1623 hunters
1338 at or over .308
285 under .308

only about 1 in 6 choose a sub 30 caliber rifle less then 20% .............Hmmmmm where have I heard this before? I think this cross section of folks who are hunting big game in tough conditions understand the situation pretty well!

Look at the drop in hunters using the 7mm mag compared to the top three. Less then 1/2 as many!


Everbody knows the '06 is most popular because its been around the longest and being ex-military only boosted its popularity. The '06 had a pretty good start over the 7RM if you do the research. To state there is a "7mm Rem Mag cult" is ridiculous! Just goes to show you lack experience hunting public land among the common folk in the lower 48, namely the Rockies or far West. Thats where the 7RM cut its teeth.............................. You need to stick to what you know - fenced Africa and PNW black bears using an '06 and 375. Like Stick said, there ain't no shame running middle of the road!

MtnHtr (Bubba)




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Gotta go with you there Mtn... this sub 30 stuff being inadequate is for the dudes to read on the toilet.

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Just want to add that a .308 Win compared to .30-06 is like comparing two likewise apples. The animal won�t notice any difference. No matter what distance you shoot at. The unnoticeable trajectory difference, does not exist if you practise enough. And the energy punch is too small to even be mentioned (sorry for mentioning it). And oh yes, not to forget, no problem to put a 220 grains bullet in a .308 Win.

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