24hourcampfire.com
24hourcampfire.com
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Page 4 of 7 1 2 3 4 5 6 7
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 5,335
R
Campfire Tracker
Offline
Campfire Tracker
R
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 5,335
Originally Posted by Eremicus
My two cents are that this applies in taking long shots which aren't the norm for shots at big game. Or at least it hasn't been for me.
There are those who argue that there are no compromises in using dedicated long range rifles and scopes for all oportunities in the field. I disagree. Scopes like your favorite Nightforce, often come with short eye relief, small eye boxes and fine reticles. All of which hinder making shots under other unfavorable conditions. Running shots at bad angles and low light shots come to mind here.
You give an example of using a binocular to range a deer at 477 yds. With a proper reticle, I can often range and shoot w/o bothering to use a range finder or dialing. No, not at 477 yds. as a rule. But if he's 300-400 yds. I can and have.
Accurate ranging and dialing is nice. If you have the additional time and if ther animal is cooperating.
Let's say your deer is moving as it feeds. Going to try ranging and dialing ? Want to know how many guys I've seen loose a shot because they were fiddling with the scope ?
They both have their uses and there places. It's not an either or situation. I do agree that one can use a reticle often times more effectively to hold into the wind than using a reticle to holdover. And it certainly works better to dial than to try and do both holdover and hold into the wind using a reticle alone.
As to reliable scopes, that's another area of disagreement. Basically, no scope can be dialed forever w/o breaking down. Ask the benchrest guys about that. Reliability also depends on the scope's ability to stay zeroed when impacted or when shot alot. Again, all of them fail if pushed enough. Some are just better than others. E


Horsehockey..I dont know a single guy proficient with turrets that cant still utilize MPBR when needed..The "caught fiddling with turrets" line is one of my favorites..It takes all of 3 seconds to fiddle..And if the shooter felt he needed to dial in for the shot to make it, then there was no other shot option for him in the first place..Meaning it was a no shot situation no matter what, not "lost to fiddling".If you are continually seeing it happen, its their own fault for not knowing their system, not the systems.

BP-B2

Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 32,312
Campfire 'Bwana
Offline
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 32,312
Originally Posted by Spotshooter


Neither are more accurate if you don't test and practice with them.

That being said - some people are spooky on turning turrets and having them return to zero - Jeff_O is ______ retentive / compulsive on it - and not in good way.
So if you don't trust turret turning - just say no.

Trust is mistated - it's really how much you trust yourself to hit using the method at hand - again practice.


I'm not mad so don't take this wrong, but a) why are you saying I'm ______ anal retentive about this, and b) why is it not a GOOD thing to be extra... retentive, lol about an endeavor where the devil most certainly does lurk in the details?

*I* would have said I'm not "retentive" ENOUGH with my LR loading/shooting practices.

Also, trust starts at the gear level and flows from there. You won't developed trust in your ability to hit, without reliable gear, because you won't be hitting.


The CENTER will hold.

Reality, Patriotism,Trump: you can only pick two

FÜCK PUTIN!
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 3,395
F
Campfire Tracker
OP Offline
Campfire Tracker
F
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 3,395
Originally Posted by Eremicus
My two cents are that this applies in taking long shots which aren't the norm for shots at big game. Or at least it hasn't been for me.
There are those who argue that there are no compromises in using dedicated long range rifles and scopes for all oportunities in the field. I disagree. Scopes like your favorite Nightforce, often come with short eye relief, small eye boxes and fine reticles. All of which hinder making shots under other unfavorable conditions. Running shots at bad angles and low light shots come to mind here.
You give an example of using a binocular to range a deer at 477 yds. With a proper reticle, I can often range and shoot w/o bothering to use a range finder or dialing. No, not at 477 yds. as a rule. But if he's 300-400 yds. I can and have.
Accurate ranging and dialing is nice. If you have the additional time and if ther animal is cooperating.
Let's say your deer is moving as it feeds. Going to try ranging and dialing ? Want to know how many guys I've seen loose a shot because they were fiddling with the scope ?
They both have their uses and there places. It's not an either or situation. I do agree that one can use a reticle often times more effectively to hold into the wind than using a reticle to holdover. And it certainly works better to dial than to try and do both holdover and hold into the wind using a reticle alone.
As to reliable scopes, that's another area of disagreement. Basically, no scope can be dialed forever w/o breaking down. Ask the benchrest guys about that. Reliability also depends on the scope's ability to stay zeroed when impacted or when shot alot. Again, all of them fail if pushed enough. Some are just better than others. E




In my experience people that say they haven't seen a need to shoot long(er), or it's not the norm, haven't because they don't have the skill or knowledge to.

A 2.5-10x32 or 3-9x42 is not a dedicated LR scope. Neither is a 7lb 243 with a fixed 6x Leupold. I killed several deer at the very last and very beginning of legal light this year with all three.


Do you consider any of these to be dedicated LR rifles and scopes..?


M7 243win Leupold 3-9x40 w/M1's
[Linked Image]


M70 300WM Leupold MK4 6x M3. Now wears a NF....
[Linked Image]



And this certianly can't be considered a dedicated LR setup. NEF 243win, Leupold 6x36 w/M1 ele. 427 yards by a girl...

[Linked Image]







How do you determine if you want to shoot an animal? Do you "glass" with your scope? Just how long do you suppose that it takes for a laser to bounce back a range when you're already looking at the target?

As far as the feeding deer.... Of course. If it's past 250 yards or so, do you just start flinging lead? I guarantee you that hitting something with a laser is faster then guessing range with a reticle. I don't care how good you think you are ranging with a reticle. This whole bs notion that it somehow takes a long time to spin a turret is ridiculous. The problem here, and we see it ALL THE TIME, is that you simply don't know what you don't know. You have no frame of reference as to what is possible. What most think is "fast" is really painfully slow.



Your comment about scopes... Everything made will eventually break. Will your rifle continue to go boom forever? No. But it will probably outlast you. I have used Leupold Ultra M3A's that are now 20 years old. They work perfectly. I have optics with over 50,000 rounds on them with almost every single shot being dialed. How many 30/06's or 308's or any rifles do you have, that have 50,000 rounds through them? Tell you what send me a PM and next time we have a class close to you I'll let you come for free and you can see those scopes being beat on and still working perfectly.

Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 5,796
Campfire Tracker
Offline
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 5,796
I take 100 rounds to range and it takes me all afternoon to shoot that what with walking back and forth and setting up targets. IT would take me 500 days to shoot all them bullets. What you shooting machine guns? Nice deer


It is better to be judged by 12 than to be carried by 6.
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 3,395
F
Campfire Tracker
OP Offline
Campfire Tracker
F
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 3,395
No not machine guns. Bolt actions and semi autos. We use steel plates mostly for the LR stuff. In hunting classes students will shoot between 300 and 500 rounds each over the course of two days. Times that by 10 students per class= 3-5,000 rounds in two days. Intermediate range military and 3-Gun competition classes may shoot over 1,000 rounds per person in two days.

IC B2

Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 3,395
F
Campfire Tracker
OP Offline
Campfire Tracker
F
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 3,395
This is part of about 6,000 rounds of military match 5.56 that was shot through one rifle in less then 6 weeks. The scope didn't last.....

[Linked Image]

Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 816
Y
Campfire Regular
Offline
Campfire Regular
Y
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 816
ive been hunting long range exclusivly in my home state of pa for more than 40 years. that said i think a knowledgable shooter could learn the basics in about 15 minits. at least how we do it. lets face it with todays equiptment 500 yard shots are challenging but not necessarily difficult.
again i should stress as we do it. all our hunting is by what might be called the ambush system. spot and stalk is not an option. the shooting is ridge to ridge accross wide valleys for the most part. prone or shooting from improvised rests is
just not done. portable shooting benches or tripods are the most popular choices. sometimes benches are stashed at remote
locations. all hunting is done with large tripod mounted
binnoculars. all shooting is done with a spotter calling shots
using the big binnoculars. just about everybody uses twin spotting scopes for their glasses. twin kowas or swarovskis are
popular but not most popular. each hunter has his own set. 3 hunters in the group, 3 sets and so on.
40 years ago probably the most popular cartridge was the 7x300
weatherby. it still is very a popular choice for the 7mm here.
today the 338s have become very populat also.

but 40 years ago this discussion wouldnt even be taking place.
reason being there were no scope choices. all of the wonderfull
scopes avilable now were unheard of then.
the only choices were the target type scopes like unertle.
they required being setup properly as for mount spacing for 1/4 min click values.
target knobs on scopes like leupold are a rather recent thing.
same goes with all the nice reticles available today.
they just didnt exist untill the long range bandwagen was created. today everybody wants a part of the action and a seat on the bandwagen. good news for long rangers.
fortunitly back then there were people like the tk lee co. and dick thomas of premier reticles.
their busisness was installing custom reticles.
thomas would need your bullet bc and the velocity plus altitude.
he would install dots in any configuration you chose. he would also install windage dots or verticle crosshairs.
many of us would have him install dots out to 1000 yds.
mostly in 3.5x10 vx3s as the 6.5x 20 came later.
i still have and use 4 of his scopes. 2 3.5x10s and 2 straight
12s.
ive even put them on other cartridges and worked it out.
although that isnt the best scenario.
all of wich has absolutly nothing to do with this topic.
but offered as a little history and how recently the modern scopes and reticles became available.

now as for what i personaly think?
i think alot would have to do with hunting style.
on the longer shots especially,take all the time you can get.
if your not being hurried then dont hurry.
in those cases by all means dial the scope.
what to do in the event of a near miss is up to the mindset of the shooter. ive shook my head as guys added 1 click then next shot remove it.
as for me, now i know why i missed and i want another in the air right now. now he knows, and your next shot could be all there is. but again, thats me.
but not every scenario is the same. and not every animal is the same. a buck rutting after a doe can be very frustrating.
by the time you dial it all in, guess what? it could be wrong already.
as for a bear, dont count on anything. especially if he's already been shot at by someone earlier.

there is no substitute for basic ability.

with a good flat shooting gun shots up to 500 yds should be
almost a given. and that without any special reticles.
id have a reticle i like. then use the hell out of it.
dont be locked in on anything.
im talking about deer and the like here. not heads of prairie dogs sticking out of holes.

Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 671
F
Campfire Regular
Offline
Campfire Regular
F
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 671
Lets get to the basics of what I have been discussing. I've been shooting ground squirrels for over 50 years. Until the range finder came out, I depended on very flat shooting rifles like the 220 swift.Then I bought my first RF and the guessing game was over. When the target knobs and RF came into play together, everything changed. Hitting a tangerine size target at two to 400 yards was possible if one did their homework.

But, it was still calculate and verify.Today is much easier, just chronograph, run the ballistics program and everything is close. For big game, it is likely more than adequate. But for Sage Rats and rockchucks,the point of impact must be verified. Now I don't know about all of you, but that requires a lot of shooting at the various ranges. First off, even some of the old guys are shy about shooting 300-500 yards. Thus they show that hollow look in their eyes when trying to figure it out. I just think we have to classify what we are hunting before making a determination of what is right and wrong.

Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 5,335
R
Campfire Tracker
Offline
Campfire Tracker
R
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 5,335
Impact still needs to be verified for true BC/velocity..anyone doing otherwise is going in circles..

Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 3,395
F
Campfire Tracker
OP Offline
Campfire Tracker
F
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 3,395
Getting your drop card is very easy.

1) Find the BC of your bullet. Preferably the "Litz" version from JBM.
2) Get a round about figure of what your muzzle velocity should be.
3) Go to JBm and plug those two things in along with bore height.
4) Hit "print".
5) Go to range and get a good 100 yard zero. Loosen and "slip" your turret until the "0" mark is lined up with the index mark.
6) From there reference the chart you printed out from JBM and shoot at 300yds until you have a good zero. Write the number of MOA's or Mils down.
7) Go to the longest range you have preferably 600 yards and do the same as you did at 300 yards. Write the number of MOA's or Mils down.
8) Go back to JBM and move the velocity up or down until it matches what you shot on the range.
9) Hit "print".



You're done.

IC B3

Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 816
Y
Campfire Regular
Offline
Campfire Regular
Y
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 816
Originally Posted by FredWillis
Lets get to the basics of what I have been discussing. I've been shooting ground squirrels for over 50 years. Until the range finder came out, I depended on very flat shooting rifles like the 220 swift.Then I bought my first RF and the guessing game was over. When the target knobs and RF came into play together, everything changed. Hitting a tangerine size target at two to 400 yards was possible if one did their homework.

But, it was still calculate and verify.Today is much easier, just chronograph, run the ballistics program and everything is close. For big game, it is likely more than adequate. But for Sage Rats and rockchucks,the point of impact must be verified. Now I don't know about all of you, but that requires a lot of shooting at the various ranges. First off, even some of the old guys are shy about shooting 300-500 yards. Thus they show that hollow look in their eyes when trying to figure it out. I just think we have to classify what we are hunting before making a determination of what is right and wrong.


fred with all due respect to a man of your age. (im personaly 77 and in a rehab center as i type this due to total hip replacment.)
but you were apperently born in the wrong state as for shooting. especially long range shooting.
rangefinders have been in use by many since shortly after ww2. in fact i still own, use, and prefer my old ww2 unit
to my swarovski lazer.
we currently are killing no more long range deer in pa than were being killed 50 years ago. regardless of all the new creations to do it with. and that my friend is fact.
a 12x unertle and that swift you have was lighting up chuck fields there 60 years ago and longer.
dialing scopes came about thru necessity by varmit hunters, mostly groundhog hunters.
the original 1000 yd benchrest club in williamsport pa was started by hunters. ground hog hunters.
many of them also used their rigs for deer hunting.
so all this dialing stuff isnt new. its just new to some. the new optics are no doubt superior to those of 50 years ago. but in some cases it can be more confusing today. especially newcomers. mills, minits, clicks, this reticle that reticle and on and on.
and of coarse all kinds of internet opinions and help.
back then it was 1/4 min clicks if your scope was set up correctly. we knew how many clicks it took at the various distances we shot because somebody did the work. we aso knew it was 50 clicks for a full turn, 2 turns were 100 and so forth. also usefull was we knew how to get on the deer or hog with the next shot if we missed. is that cheating?
it was and is the kiss system. highly reccomended for old polish monkeys smile

Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 6,764
T
Campfire Tracker
Offline
Campfire Tracker
T
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 6,764
Originally Posted by Formidilosus
Getting your drop card is very easy.

1) Find the BC of your bullet. Preferably the "Litz" version from JBM.
2) Get a round about figure of what your muzzle velocity should be.
3) Go to JBm and plug those two things in along with bore height.
4) Hit "print".
5) Go to range and get a good 100 yard zero. Loosen and "slip" your turret until the "0" mark is lined up with the index mark.
6) From there reference the chart you printed out from JBM and shoot at 300yds until you have a good zero. Write the number of MOA's or Mils down.
7) Go to the longest range you have preferably 600 yards and do the same as you did at 300 yards. Write the number of MOA's or Mils down.
8) Go back to JBM and move the velocity up or down until it matches what you shot on the range.
9) Hit "print".



You're done.


yep!

and you also get your muzzle velocity without messin' with the chrono.


Guns don't kill people, drivers with cell phones kill people.
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 5,335
R
Campfire Tracker
Offline
Campfire Tracker
R
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 5,335
Originally Posted by Formidilosus
Getting your drop card is very easy.

1) Find the BC of your bullet. Preferably the "Litz" version from JBM.
2) Get a round about figure of what your muzzle velocity should be.
3) Go to JBm and plug those two things in along with bore height.
4) Hit "print".
5) Go to range and get a good 100 yard zero. Loosen and "slip" your turret until the "0" mark is lined up with the index mark.
6) From there reference the chart you printed out from JBM and shoot at 300yds until you have a good zero. Write the number of MOA's or Mils down.
7) Go to the longest range you have preferably 600 yards and do the same as you did at 300 yards. Write the number of MOA's or Mils down.
8) Go back to JBM and move the velocity up or down until it matches what you shot on the range.
9) Hit "print".



You're done.


Just got set up like that..Its nice having a private range now...and was more/less what I was getting at in my last post.

Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 1,200
R
Campfire Regular
Offline
Campfire Regular
R
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 1,200
Originally Posted by toad
Originally Posted by Formidilosus
Getting your drop card is very easy.

1) Find the BC of your bullet. Preferably the "Litz" version from JBM.
2) Get a round about figure of what your muzzle velocity should be.
3) Go to JBm and plug those two things in along with bore height.
4) Hit "print".
5) Go to range and get a good 100 yard zero. Loosen and "slip" your turret until the "0" mark is lined up with the index mark.
6) From there reference the chart you printed out from JBM and shoot at 300yds until you have a good zero. Write the number of MOA's or Mils down.
7) Go to the longest range you have preferably 600 yards and do the same as you did at 300 yards. Write the number of MOA's or Mils down.
8) Go back to JBM and move the velocity up or down until it matches what you shot on the range.
9) Hit "print".



You're done.


yep!

and you also get your muzzle velocity without messin' with the chrono.


Frog, You are wrong again as per normal, but formidilosus might have led you astray with #2. Using a chronograph is more critical the longer the range you want to shoot for Extreme Spread and Standard deviation numbers to go along with muzzle velocity.
#2 does not mean that much if you have a E.S. of 50fps.......do your chrono homework.

Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 6,764
T
Campfire Tracker
Offline
Campfire Tracker
T
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 6,764
numbchuck, you can spew bile to your hearts content, but you gotta get out and actually shoot to get it, and you don't.

love how you look at a rodent @ 828 yards as a crowning accomplishment...that speaks volumes

this schitt is as hard as you want it to be, but Formidilosus has it right. what happens at the target trumps all, so start there. some people think obcessing over minutiae will give the same results as actually shooting


Guns don't kill people, drivers with cell phones kill people.
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 3,395
F
Campfire Tracker
OP Offline
Campfire Tracker
F
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 3,395
Originally Posted by rockchuck828

Frog, You are wrong again as per normal, but formidilosus might have led you astray with #2. Using a chronograph is more critical the longer the range you want to shoot for Extreme Spread and Standard deviation numbers to go along with muzzle velocity.
#2 does not mean that much if you have a E.S. of 50fps.......do your chrono homework.



I never brought up true LR shots, or varmints in this thread. I am speaking to big game out to 600+/- yards with normal weight hunting rifles. For that, anyone can follow that list and smoke every deer walking. E.S. and S.D. are important but not that important when your just trying to put rounds into an 8-12 inch target. True long range is a different ball game.

Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 1,200
R
Campfire Regular
Offline
Campfire Regular
R
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 1,200
Originally Posted by toad
but you gotta get out and accually shoot to get it, and you don't.

love how you look at a rodent


WOW !!!!! Frog you are funny when you stand in front of the mirror and talk to yourself grin cry laugh

Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,716
S
Campfire Regular
Offline
Campfire Regular
S
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,716
Agree. I think one of the reasons that guys don't hit as well with reticles is that about 90+ (easily) percent of them apply them as designed--not to the highest degree of accuracy that they are capable of.

In '04 Ernie Bishop and i competed in the ITRC in Gillette, WY using XP-100 handguns and still placed 50% in the standings using the simple Burris BP reticle in 3-12x EER scopes against many military, police and practical rifle teams. In that particular event I witnessed Ernie shoot one of the best strings of fire i've ever seen accomplished in the field using his reticle--3-8" discs @ 585 shot 6 times in a row (2 each), and 1 at 685 shot twice--8 shots, 8 hits.

I and my partners use both systems and for most of our practical hunting scenarios, reticles are our go-to methodology.


Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,716
S
Campfire Regular
Offline
Campfire Regular
S
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,716
As a very dedicated predator hunter i can say there's no way a dialer can keep up with a reticle for fast action shooting at intermediate ranges [out to ~500 or so] on tgts. of ~6" or more. I've seen it too many times over the 20 years or so now hunting them with a longer range shooting system established [reticle and turret]. No way the dialer will net a higher avg. kill ratio beyond MPBR over a series of years.

And as far as multi-stadia reticles go, the tree reticles are much more "field-worthy" than those that have no direct system of windage reference lower on the vertical axis. Tree reticles are FAR better if a guy takes the time to establish a more precise system of reference than that which was designed for the reticle, especially on coyotes that allow for only one shot most of the time.

Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 2,678
B
Campfire Regular
Offline
Campfire Regular
B
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 2,678
Formadilosus,
What type of reticle/turrets do you prefer...moa/moa, mil/mil, mil/moa, etc, etc??

Page 4 of 7 1 2 3 4 5 6 7

Moderated by  RickBin 

Link Copied to Clipboard
YB23

Who's Online Now
687 members (1Akshooter, 12344mag, 10Glocks, 10gaugemag, 17CalFan, 76 invisible), 3,105 guests, and 1,453 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Statistics
Forums81
Topics1,187,678
Posts18,399,550
Members73,817
Most Online11,491
Jul 7th, 2023


 







Fish & Game Departments | Solunar Tables | Mission Statement | Privacy Policy | Contact Us | DMCA
Hunting | Fishing | Camping | Backpacking | Reloading | Campfire Forums | Gear Shop
Copyright © 2000-2024 24hourcampfire.com, Inc. All Rights Reserved.
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5
(Release build 20201027)
Responsive Width:

PHP: 7.3.33 Page Time: 0.185s Queries: 15 (0.004s) Memory: 0.9197 MB (Peak: 1.1074 MB) Data Comp: Zlib Server Time: 2024-03-28 21:08:11 UTC
Valid HTML 5 and Valid CSS