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Fair enough, I will still take an FFP and matching reticles/adjustments every time. I dont get it either when guys turn the dial slow enough to hear every click. If Im adding 6.2mils for a shot I buzz it around and just stop at the correct point.

On the other hand, with a few exceptions to the rule like the fixed bushnell you mentioned, you have to pay more to get perfect repeatability and that does not happen to often on glass under $300. I have also taught police snipers when the standard package was the Rem 700 with the Leup 3.5x10 with target turrets. The standard class size was 40 and there were usually 4-5 that would crap out after a week and 800-1000 rounds.

The only SPF scopes I have are on varmint rifles where a thicker crosshair would be blotting out some of the smaller targets.


Hunt hard, kill clean, waste nothing and offer no apologies.

"In rifle work, group size is of some interest...but it is well to remember that a rifleman does not shoot groups, he shoots shots." Jeff Cooper

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Agree.

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Formidilous, you seem to think that I don't know anything about killing stuff at extended ranges, scopes or hunting under a wide variety of conditions.
I've owned several hunting rifles chambered for cartriages like the .308. the 30'06, and the .280 that had scopes which could be dialed for range and even windage. I've made several kills over 400 yds., a few over 500 yds. and one about 700 yds. I still have some of these rifles with scopes like the above. They are actually quite similar to those in the pics you posted.
My arguments against this sort of thing were limited to being too specialized to the point where one is handicapped when he has to hunt under much different conditions. I used the example of a Nightforce hunting scope with short eye relief, a small eye box and fine "range finder" reticle. The scope on my all around, including long range, .280 for instance, is a 6X42 Leupold with an elevation turret. Lots of ER, eye box and a Heavy Duplex for those bad light shots. Still capable of making shots out to 600 yds. but also much more useful in other types of hunting.
I do agree that practicing in the field on rocks and ground squirrels is not only alot of fun, but a useful skill. I've done lots of that too. No, I'ver never put anything like 50,000 rds. through anything. And I odviously haven't done as much dial twisting as you have. But I've killed some stuff up very close in ranges measured in feet and hunted country that gets anywhere from less than 4 inches of rain a year to over 80 inches. I've hunted from sea level to over 12,000 ft. as well.
All this has taught me that long range simply isn't everything, but it is part of the game. The trick is to be able to handle it all, not just some of it at the expense of the other techniques necessary in some places. E

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For those that twist turrets [to which group i include myself] the most recent article by Norm Johnson was quite enlightening on applying cheap scope turrets at longer ranges. Interesting how he "breaks in" a turret by running it back and forth throughout its adjustment range, and loading the bias spring as a final adjustment. It was the motivation for me to adapt a finger-adjustable turret on an el cheapo 2x Barska handgun scope as a target turret on a Ruger Mk III Tgt. model 22 RF for 1st shots at 225 [30 MOA], 300 [50] and 425 [90] yds. All this from a generic ballistics program profile for a .1 BC at 1200 mv. May not have been perfectly "precise" but it sure was fun! Turns out these FA turrets are actually resettable to "0"--

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Originally Posted by varmintsinc
.... I have also taught police snipers when the standard package was the Rem 700 with the Leup 3.5x10 with target turrets. The standard class size was 40 and there were usually 4-5 that would crap out after a week and 800-1000 rounds.


varmints, I believe what you say...but it seems like a pretty damned high failure rate to me.

Can't figure why anyone would buy a scope like that,intended for spinning turrets, and rely on it.Seems like a real waste of $500-$600 bucks to me....




The 280 Remington is overbore.

The 7 Rem Mag is over bore.
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10-15% failure rate on most Leupolds is just about bang-on with my experience in a 5 day class.


Of course most manufactures are worse then that.....

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Originally Posted by Eremicus
I've made several kills over 400 yds., a few over 500 yds. and one about 700 yds.... E


Tell me about the rifle, load, scope, reticle and what you shot. What rangefinder were you running E ?

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Originally Posted by Formidilosus
10-15% failure rate on most Leupolds is just about bang-on with my experience in a 5 day class.


Of course most manufactures are worse then that.....


Not good... frown




The 280 Remington is overbore.

The 7 Rem Mag is over bore.
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Last year (Oct. and Nov.) I got a compact 4x and a 4-12 and they are both at Leupold for repairs. The 4x was on a Ruger 10/22 and has a broken reticle (so much for "electrofoaming) and the 4-12 was on a 700 (270 from their custom shop) and it's zero is wandering all over the place.

I did get one good one from the wizards of Oregon though, a Redfield 2-7.

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"Failure" meaning didn't track perfectly each and every time, right ?
I take it this also means all Leupolds, not the Mk.4's ? E

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So... with the failures some guys see, which scope would you begin to recommend for a hard-work, SS/Synthetic killing rifle? Nothing higher than 10x at the top end.

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I like the Leupold FX3, 6X42 the best for most of my big game/large varmit hunting. E

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My preference for an all-around slaughter scope is the FX3 6x42 w/ M1 ele. Having said that, I don't mind a bit more mag for shooting 800+ yards. Somewhere around 9 or 10x is good for that kind of work.

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Originally Posted by Tanner
So... with the failures some guys see, which scope would you begin to recommend for a hard-work, SS/Synthetic killing rifle? Nothing higher than 10x at the top end.


If money is no object, a VX3 2.5-8x36mm (SA) or 3.5-10x40mm (LA). If money's tight, a VX1 or VXII 3-9x40mm.

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I do not think the average hunter will ever wear out a Conquest or VX3. If he does it will probably take many years to do so. No offense to anyone, but I still believe most scope failures, especially the ones that fail in 100-200 rounds on a big game rifle, are due to improper mounting, torquing, ring placement, etc. I've probably had 75 hunters show up in camp with Leupold's mounted on their rifles.....300WBy Mags to 7-08's and everything in between but mostly magnums of some sort. They haven't told me of one single failure and I've asked them all.

I'm not at all saying Formid here isn't telling the truth, or anyone else for that matter. The avg hunter doesn't shoot 800 rounds in a long weekend with his 7mag. I've had a Tikka 695 for 13 years now, and I bet it still hasn't had over 250 rounds through it. It still managed to kill a Swaro A I had on it, but it was mounted properly I think!


It is irrelevant what you think. What matters is the TRUTH.
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Mainly for Formidilosus, but others are welcome to post:

Supposing recoil/adjustment damage to a scope is cumulative...do you think the time/intensity plays a part as well? Two examples, same adjustments and number of rounds fired...but with distinctly different timelines:

1. 800 rounds fired, spinning turrets over a weekend.

2. 800 rounds fired, spinning turrents over 5 years.

Do you think there's a difference in the possibility of damage between the two?

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Doubtful


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From what I've seen, there are three kinds of scope "failures."
One is from accumulated recoil. I've never busted one from recoil, but I've seen friends, who shoot lighter, heavy recoiling magnums have scopes stop holding zero.
Another is from impacts. I've bounced lots of scopes off of rocks during falls etc. w/o damage. I've seen some shift zero. In at least one case it wasn't the scope at all but the front scope ring loosening.
I suspect this type of failure is also cumulative. The reticle on my old 4X Leupold gave way during some rough bolt slaming which was alot less than what it had previously endured in the field.
Last of all is failure to change zero as expected or return to zero. I understand the military teaches their snipers to shoot their rifles often and always considers the first and last shots to be the most important. LEO snipers have apparently adopted this philosophy as well.
So, all of this means what ? It means when you buy a new scope, first make sure it's mounted right. I've seen far more mounting related scope problems than actual scope problems.
Second, test it for 60 plus rounds and to make sure it works right. Even the very expensive, highly regarded makers can produce a defective scope.
Third, be aware of what kinds of failures scopes or mounts can have and watch for them. Again, test your rifle and scope combination from time to time.
When you find something that works well, stick with it. I've got several scopes who have been very reliable whose rifles are long gone. But I keep them. They may not be the brightest and have full multicoating. Two even have too little eye relief and not near enough eye box. One doesn't have much of a reticle for low light shooting. But I keep them anyway because they alwayts worked even when abused. E

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Like Eremicus, I haven't seen any of my Leupold's fail due to just recoil best I can tell. I have seen them shift zero from being bumped (probably slammed) from rough air line handling though. I realize this might not be considered a failure, but it doesn't leave me with a warm and fuzzy feeling as to why they shifted zero. Would be curious to see if Leupold's use of dual erector springs in their newer VX-3's would help that or not.

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JG, you are correct. I haven't seen many reputable scopes that were zereod and left (like 99% of hunters do) have problems or failures. If you are a set it and forget it type, most any will do.





Originally Posted by JCMCUBIC
Mainly for Formidilosus, but others are welcome to post:

Supposing recoil/adjustment damage to a scope is cumulative...do you think the time/intensity plays a part as well? Two examples, same adjustments and number of rounds fired...but with distinctly different timelines:

1. 800 rounds fired, spinning turrets over a weekend.

2. 800 rounds fired, spinning turrents over 5 years.

Do you think there's a difference in the possibility of damage between the two?




If there is, it is very small and I have never seen it.

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