24hourcampfire.com
24hourcampfire.com
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 11,263
RickBin Offline OP
Campfire Outfitter
OP Offline
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 11,263
Ken:
<br>
<br>I am working on the process of deciding on my next rifle ... a .338 caliber, and the crazy, completely irrational, but highly exciting prospect of developing my own wildcat struck me. So I come to the master to ask his sage advice. This whole notion is just an idea, so I guess I come to you to see how practical it may or may not be. I understand and accept that I'll need to get reamers and dies custom made. So be it.
<br>
<br>Ken, I want a .338 on a .532 rimless case, 2.62" trim-to length, with a neck of .340". I want no belt, and a body taper to .515 at the shoulder, with a shoulder angle of 35 degrees.
<br>
<br>Basically, I want a .300 Winchester case optimized for the .338 bore, with no belt, no rebated rim, minimal body taper, and a full-caliber neck length, all to work in a standard action.
<br>
<br>A. Is there a similar case already in production?
<br>
<br>B. Is there a "parent" case that has a .532 base diameter with no belt and no rebated rim.
<br>
<br>C. What am I missing?
<br>
<br>D. Would you recommned it?
<br>
<br>Rick


"What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly: it is dearness only that gives every thing its value. Heaven knows how to put a proper price upon its goods; and it would be strange indeed if so celestial an article as freedom should not be highly rated." Thomas Paine
BP-B2

Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 29,348
Campfire Ranger
Offline
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 29,348
The .404 Jeffery is a tad bigger than you've specified (0.545 inch diameter at the web), and the 8x68mm S is a tad smaller at 0.5236 inch. This is larger than an H&H Magnum case with the belt (0.532 inch) turned-off (to about 0.515 inch across the web).
<br>
<br>The 8x68mm case is 2.658 inches long. My .340 Howell Express uses the 8x68mm case but with a longer neck than you've specified.
<br>
<br>Consider a longer neck (assuming that you intend to use long bullets). In considering neck length, the length of the bullet is more important than diameter. For lack of an established term for the crucial concept here, I've coined the term "socket engagement." This concept is more important for good cartridge performance than I've seen anyone else recognize. To get a quick hand-hold on it, recognize (for illustrative example) that while you can set all the fenceposts you want to, two feet in the ground, and get along just fine, you can't expect that socket engagement to be enough for a flag pole or a telephone pole. And a skyscraper has to be sunk several floors to be stable. After a while, the increase in socket engagement that you get with a longer neck (for the established case length) is more important than the slight loss in case capacity with that slightly shorter body.
<br>
<br>I wouldn't use a shoulder steeper than 30� and would be careful to retain a good body taper to avoid having feeding problems. Popular folk-lore theories that favor minimum body taper or even cylindrical bodies have not proved their worth in use, while there's a substantial body of frustration with the difficulty of feeding cases that don't have enough body taper.
<br>
<br>When I get my AutoCAD problems taken care of, I'll do up a drawing for you. The .338 Bin, as I "see" it now, should give you all that you'll ever need or want from .338 bullets.


"Good enough" isn't.

Always take your responsibilities seriously but never yourself.



















Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 977
Campfire Regular
Offline
Campfire Regular
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 977
How about a .338 Win Mag with a chamber cut so that factory loads headpace on the shoulder? The belt area in the chamber would be relieved so that factory cases would not touch there. This need be only about .007" and I don't see a problem there.
<br>
<br>This is how I designed my .224 wildcat. It works fine.
<br>
<br>I would not change the .338 case otherwise but that's what I would do. You might want a .338 Improved headspaced as I suggested and then you could still shoot factory loads in it.

Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 5,645
BW Offline
Campfire Tracker
Offline
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 5,645
Rick,
<br>
<br>I'm thinking along the same lines as you, only perhaps in 9.3mm caliber.
<br>
<br>Guess I follow along with your progress, as there isn't much interest in my post below. It's nearly the same thing (404 based medium bore) so there's no need for duplicate threads.
<br>
<br>Good luck!


Brian

Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 11,263
RickBin Offline OP
Campfire Outfitter
OP Offline
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 11,263
BW:
<br>
<br>I'll let you in on what I'm processing (or failing to) now:
<br>
<br>1] I like Dr. Howell's .340 Howell Express, but I have an action with a .532 boltface, which means a new action. The .404 Jeffrey's I can modify the boltface to accept. Now, if I could horse trade for a new action, maybe ...
<br>
<br>2] Why not the Dakota? I hear their brass can be spotty. And it's expensive. But it's not a bad one as rimless medium-bores go, eh? $1.40 per case, though. Geez!
<br>
<br>3] Why hasn't anyone designed a rimless case with a .532 base diameter? What a concept! Can you imagine the wildcats it would spew. Where is there such an animal?
<br>
<br>4] A custom cartridge ... the .338 BinMag, has a certain, okay, a certain STRONG appeal. I keep thinking that if I'm going to have an exotic cartridge with difficult-to-find brass, requiring fire-forming, etc., etc., I may as well go all the way, or else stick with the .338 WinMag.
<br>
<br>5] How much more performance are we going to get out of the medium bore based on a .404 than we will out of the .338 WinMag? I see the .338 as having 2700 fps with a 250-grainer, and a .340 Weatherby getting maaaaybe 200 fps more. Is this all worth it for an extra 100 fps over the .338 WinMag, which is where our project is likely to end up? I keep thinking only if it's a BinMag. Then it would be worth it.
<br>
<br>I dunno. Still chewing on it.
<br>
<br>Rick


"What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly: it is dearness only that gives every thing its value. Heaven knows how to put a proper price upon its goods; and it would be strange indeed if so celestial an article as freedom should not be highly rated." Thomas Paine
IC B2

Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 29,348
Campfire Ranger
Offline
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 29,348
You're not the first to ask for this, so I guess it's time (if I can eke a bit more time out of this balky AutoCAD) to gin-up a short (2.50-inch) and express (2.75-inch) .338 on the .404 Jeffery. I'll give 'er a whirl -- later. Have to take a nap now.
<br>
<br>Will also do a 9.3mm version of each -- again assuming reasonable cooperation with this quirky latest incarnation of AutoCAD. (I'm thinking I should uninstall AutoCAD 2000 and go back to the old AutoCAD v12 that did so well in the >1,000 drawings for that big blue book. It didn't have as many bells, whistles, tambourines, and cymbals -- which is making it seem more and more attractive every time AutoCAD 2000 balks -- refuses to use the type face I've chosen, won't print on my H-P LaserJet 4, etc.)


"Good enough" isn't.

Always take your responsibilities seriously but never yourself.



















Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 29,348
Campfire Ranger
Offline
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 29,348
BW, take note of the post (above) that I just wrote in reply to Rick.


"Good enough" isn't.

Always take your responsibilities seriously but never yourself.



















Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 11,263
RickBin Offline OP
Campfire Outfitter
OP Offline
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 11,263
Gentlemen:
<br>
<br>I have died and gone to heaven.
<br>
<br>[Linked Image]
<br>
<br>And get this, being the absolute moron that I am, I emailed Dr. Howell with some modifications. I feel like the original AutoCad.
<br>
<br>I think I'll be ordering a reamer.
<br>
<br>The .338 Bin Mag.
<br>
<br>You saw it here first.
<br>
<br>Thanks Dr. Howell. Thanks much!
<br>
<br>Rick


"What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly: it is dearness only that gives every thing its value. Heaven knows how to put a proper price upon its goods; and it would be strange indeed if so celestial an article as freedom should not be highly rated." Thomas Paine
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 18,881
E
Campfire Ranger
Offline
Campfire Ranger
E
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 18,881
Rick. I've got a buddy at my local range with that round in a couple of SA M70's. That's right two of them ! He gets fantastic performance, then he blows a primer on a warm day.
<br> Now, I know you won't do that. Have fun.
<br> What is that, three ?
<br> If your wife divorces you, can I marry her ?
<br> Heh, heh, heh. E

Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 11,263
RickBin Offline OP
Campfire Outfitter
OP Offline
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 11,263
E:
<br>
<br>1] I knew I shouldn't have fed you her bean soup!
<br>
<br>2] Not one but TWO! I don't even have a reamer yet, and someone's already blowing primers! You sure know how to deflate a guy.
<br>
<br>I've got one word for you ... TI TA NI UM. [Linked Image]
<br>
<br>Rick


"What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly: it is dearness only that gives every thing its value. Heaven knows how to put a proper price upon its goods; and it would be strange indeed if so celestial an article as freedom should not be highly rated." Thomas Paine
IC B3

Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 6,200
Campfire Tracker
Offline
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 6,200
Rick,
<br>
<br>I too used to think that it was idiotic that no manufacturer had ever come up with a beltless .532 diameter case. Then Remington came out with the Ultra Mag line of cartridges, and then I knew the manufacturers were idiotic. What's with the rebated rims on DGR cartridges ?
<br>
<br>My cartridge was going to be the .300 American- .532 head/rim, 2.500 long, 30 degree shoulder, .350 long neck, and .512 dia at the shoulder. In other words, just a beltless .300 Win.
<br>
<br>I heartily approve of the .338 Bin. And by the way, it is very, very likely that you could get away with using your current action. What with most rims being on the small side, and the clearance designed into the bolt head, you may not need a new action. Thus preserving your marriage [Linked Image]
<br>
<br>Scott



Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 5,645
BW Offline
Campfire Tracker
Offline
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 5,645
Ken,
<br>
<br>Many thanks sir, for all your help with the cartridge design.
<br>
<br>Coming up with a brand new design was not my intention. There is a 9.3mm/404 die set listed on Huntingtons webpage. Since I have no clue as to what this cartridge actually looks like, I have no way of knowing if it's what I had in mind.
<br>
<br>Quickly looking at the specs in my old "Cartridges of the World" book, I see that the 404 and the 375H&H case length, and overall length, are within several thousands of each other.
<br>
<br>What is not listed, is case capacity for these two cartridges. Narturally, I assume the 404 is larger. Belts don't really bother me, as I've had no problems with them.
<br>
<br>How about magazine capacity? I'm stuck with Winchester M70 Classic actions, because I shoot left-handed. Sure there's other brands, but either at much expense, or they're not yet released.
<br>
<br>Seems like both cases have fairly long necks. That brings me to think that neither .338 or .366 caliber bullets would extend into the case very deep. That's with the "express" version of the brass your designing. Perhaps it may be a concern with the "short" version, but after my experiences with the 416 Taylor, I'm not looking for a "short" case.
<br>
<br>Given that the standard M70 Classic action can be machined to accept 375H&H length cartridges, I see no reason to stay with the shorter version. That of course is a personal decision, and others may feel different.
<br>
<br>What I really need to do, is look up the different 9.3mm bullets that are being made, decide which one I want to shoot, then try and figure out just how fast I need it to travel, to meet my goals of a medium range (300- 600 yards) cartridge for the game I intend to shoot.
<br>
<br>My only fear, is that I'll find a perfectly suitable factory cartridge, which meets those needs...
<br>
<br>[Linked Image]
<br>
<br>Thanks again!
<br>


Brian

Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 29,348
Campfire Ranger
Offline
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 29,348
If you have a copy of my book or can find one in your nape of the woods, look at the .365-.404, the upper drawing on page 282. The fired case that somebody sent me is 2.84 inches long, with a body 2.335 inches long, a shoulder 0.530 inch in diameter, a neck 0.365 inch long, and a 23� shoulder (probably meant to be 25�).


"Good enough" isn't.

Always take your responsibilities seriously but never yourself.



















Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 670
Campfire Regular
Offline
Campfire Regular
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 670
Hey:
<br>
<br>What's going on here???????
<br>
<br>That .338 Bin Magnum looks just exactly like the .338 Tibbe Magnum that I patented and copywrited/righted several years ago!!!!!!!!!!
<br>
<br>Bill Tibbe

Last edited by William_E_Tibbe; 05/08/02.
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 29,348
Campfire Ranger
Offline
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 29,348
Bill, I can't tell from your post whether you're kidding, lying, or fantasizing -- so I assume nothing re the intent. I hope you're just kidding.
<br>
<br>But know this -- I don't appreciate or enjoy the implied accusation of piracy or plagiarism, whether intended or merely careless. If you are just kidding, please take note of the unfortunate fact that words WRITTEN in jest often carry ruinous weight with unintended consequences, not like words that can be safely SPOKEN in jest.
<br>
<br>Please elucidate.


"Good enough" isn't.

Always take your responsibilities seriously but never yourself.



















Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,614
D
Campfire Regular
Offline
Campfire Regular
D
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,614
Rick....have you looked at the Lazzeroni line of cartridges. There are, I believe, 2 or 3 different case head sizes and they come in both long and short versions...brass is pricey but last forever if you take care of it....try www.lazzeroni.com

Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 11,263
RickBin Offline OP
Campfire Outfitter
OP Offline
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 11,263
Bill:
<br>
<br>I could find no dimensions on the Lazz website. Please realize, I have been infected with bigstickus eremicosis wildcatitis howellensis.
<br>
<br>I need numbers, man, NUMBERS.
<br>
<br>


"What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly: it is dearness only that gives every thing its value. Heaven knows how to put a proper price upon its goods; and it would be strange indeed if so celestial an article as freedom should not be highly rated." Thomas Paine
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 670
Campfire Regular
Offline
Campfire Regular
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 670
Ken:
<br>
<br>Elucidating:
<br>
<br>Your query #1:
<br>
<br>Answer: All of the above!
<br>
<br>Your comment #2:
<br>
<br>Answer: Not to worry. In Rick's case I'll waive my usual "Acquisition fee" and "Royalty" per case or shot!
<br>
<br>I said - looks like, not acts or performs like. Cartridges are like Chinese and Africans, they all look alike.
<br>
<br>I can claim an enhanced performance of 25% more velocity with 25% less pressure. That's because of the "space age" breakthrough. It was inspired by watching the launching of space shots from Cape Kennedy ( formerly Canaveral ) *( And also because I don't publish data so no-one can dispute my claim )!
<br>
<br>The load is a special blend or troika, trident, triumvirate. It has a "kick start" element, or an acceleration element, a sustained burn ( solid propellant ) aspect and an "afterburner". The 3 powders are "layered" and a primer is placed 1/3 of the way down in the case. Sorry I can't be more specific but lets just say it's a takeoff from Colonel Saunders KFC: Only fresh ( never frozen ) cases and a special, secret blend of 13 herbs and spices that make it "Finger Lickin Good".
<br>
<br>Sorry to be so circumscript but we must maintain our proprietary secrets so we employ the "Mushroom" tactic: " Keep them in the dark and feed them horse manure".
<br>
<br>Bill Tibbe

Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 29,348
Campfire Ranger
Offline
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 29,348
Thanks (I guess) for the "elucidation," Bill.
<br>
<br>I stand apprised.
<br>
<br>Except for one wee detail:
<br>
<br>How 'm I ever gonna know when you're serious? I've been taking your comments and questions in other threads as serious, even those that seemed a little tweaky. Silly me! Now I know better. Seems that you've already posted, somewhere earlier, that you're never serious -- so I should've known. I apologize for taking your "wit" (?) wrong. And I'll know not to jump when you holler "Wolf! Wolf!"
<br>
<br>And I'm serious.


"Good enough" isn't.

Always take your responsibilities seriously but never yourself.



















Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 29,348
Campfire Ranger
Offline
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 29,348
Two or three years ago, over on another board that we've all learned not to take seriously enough to even go there any more, a self-styled joker (with all the apparent seriousness of a barnful of owls) posted that someone had told him that a caseful of Bullseye was a very good load with a 180-grain bullet in the '06 -- that he'd loaded a bunch, would shoot 'em Saturday, and would let us all know how good that load was.
<br>
<br>Day after day for about a week, that thread grew by the foot, with many of us warning "Don't do it" and saying WHY "don't do it." After several days, the joker who'd originated that thread came back on, chiding us for being a bunch of fretful old maids too prone to run around hollering that the sky was falling.
<br>
<br>That was bad enough. Worse, several others chimed-in echoing the same bull-hockey that we should've seen right off that it had to be a joke.
<br>
<br>What was worst, we didn't see -- and could only hope hadn't occurred, despite all probability that it had --
<br>
<br>-- that some newbie took it as gospel and loaded some and fired one of those bombs.
<br>
<br>The fellow who started that thread was no kid. He'd been posting a lot of good, useful answers to questions in other threads on that board --
<br>
<br>-- which made his "joke" all the more deadly.
<br>
<br>Words have meanings. Sentences have meanings. Many have consequences. Sometimes, the intended ancillary meanings aren't clear enough to defang the deadliness of the literal meanings.
<br>
<br>I did not pirate or plagiarize anybody's cartridge design. NEVER have. So I resent equally both the serious accusation and the apparently serious irresponsible implication that I have. It's as bad, IMO, as straight-facedly telling a newbie to cork a .30-06 case full of Bullseye with a 180-grain bullet for a good elk load. There'll be meat on the table somewhere, all right -- and on the walls, and on the ceiling --


"Good enough" isn't.

Always take your responsibilities seriously but never yourself.




















Moderated by  RickBin 

Link Copied to Clipboard
YB23

Who's Online Now
120 members (16penny, 257_X_50, 338Rules, 444Matt, 32_20fan, 16 invisible), 1,794 guests, and 839 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Statistics
Forums81
Topics1,187,726
Posts18,400,684
Members73,822
Most Online11,491
Jul 7th, 2023


 







Fish & Game Departments | Solunar Tables | Mission Statement | Privacy Policy | Contact Us | DMCA
Hunting | Fishing | Camping | Backpacking | Reloading | Campfire Forums | Gear Shop
Copyright © 2000-2024 24hourcampfire.com, Inc. All Rights Reserved.
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5
(Release build 20201027)
Responsive Width:

PHP: 7.3.33 Page Time: 0.098s Queries: 13 (0.004s) Memory: 0.8950 MB (Peak: 1.0550 MB) Data Comp: Zlib Server Time: 2024-03-29 07:11:02 UTC
Valid HTML 5 and Valid CSS