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just got some of these in a little sample pack from a pal. Wow, talk about a LONGGG bullet! Ogive looks pretty similar to a Matchking kind of profile... interested to see how they do, to say the least! I'm not sure the 175 will stabilize, but the 165 should do just fine. ![[Linked Image]](http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m545/Tanner_Coulter/IMAG0371.jpg) left to right, 140 Berger, 165 Matrix, 175 Matrix, and a .308 165 SST for reference.
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Curious to see how that 165 works for you... 
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Me too. Tanner let us know...from the WSM right?
The 280 Remington is overbore.
The 7 Rem Mag is over bore.
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Wicked!!
You gonna single load or mag feed?
Mike
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Yes sir, WSM case. I'll mag feed them, 165 is just off the lands at 2.92"
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Thanks, looking forward to your results!
Mike
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I'll run them over like 66gr of Retumbo and see how they run, just for some preliminary stuff. If they shoot I'll get a bunch of em.
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Checked out the bc's on their website, assuming those are VLD profile! Holy smokes!
Mike
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The BC's on the Matrix site are computer simulated, kinda like the old Berger numbers which were subsequently lowered after testing.
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Yep, I've heard the G1 for the 165 is closer to .650 than what they claim. Still damn slick, but not quite what they're saying.
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Thx 4 the report, I'd like to get my paws on some of the 165's to try in my 9 twisted .270.
I've thought about sticking a 270 tube on my M70/WSM for just that bullet.
Dober
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Let us know how they shoot for ya, I've been thinking about a 1/8" 270 Winchester  and might give the Matrix 165s a go if it takes the Berger Hybrids too long to get on the shelves.
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I expect that you could get them going 2800+ out of a .270 Winny, that would be a kick butt set up.
I'd like to try the Berger 170 too. My Montana has a super short throat, and I expect the Bergs would have a more aggressive ogive. The 165 gets pretty deep down in the powder column where I've got them seated, but I'm not going to try and jam them.
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Are these a mono bullet? For hunting? Do they expand or what?
Waiting on a 9 twist that is being installed right now.These bullets should be interesting...we had a discussion about them a few weeks ago.
The 280 Remington is overbore.
The 7 Rem Mag is over bore.
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Nope. They use a regular J4 jacket, and are a VLD bullet. They are as much for hunting as the Scenar, A-Max, etc While Matrix won't officially condone their use for hunting, the feedback they've received is that the bullet works well enough for killing stuff.
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I expect (and hope) that they'd perform like a Scenar. Lots of stuff has been killed with 'em, but that doesn't really mean much 
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The 280 Remington is overbore.
The 7 Rem Mag is over bore.
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Bob, how about some more info on that 9 twist 270 WCF? What's that rig? Sounds perfect for an M1 if you run the 165s...
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Jordan and or others, any idea where we go to order the Matrix bullets?
Thx
Dober
(side note the 140 Berg shoots lights out in my 9 twist .06 Improved)
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Bob, how about some more info on that 9 twist 270 WCF? What's that rig? Sounds perfect for an M1 if you run the 165s... Tanner the rifle is my old M70 pre 64 FW 270 in a Brown Precision Pound'R stock. It dates back to the mid 80's when it had the factory tube, which I cooked. 7 years ago (2005?),I had a #1 Krieger 10 twist installed.I guess I shot it too much because it just won't shoot anymore....tried everything. I had a spare Brux 9 twist at the house so that is being installed now,and should be done...waiting to hear. It's a light rifle at sub 7#'s scoped, but yes, I had thought of putting a 6x42 Leupold on it and trying a turret!  I figure I would give the Matrix a run so let me know how they do.... 
The 280 Remington is overbore.
The 7 Rem Mag is over bore.
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Dang, I might have to check the twist on the Tikka and see if they will work.
Hunt hard, kill clean, waste nothing and offer no apologies.
"In rifle work, group size is of some interest...but it is well to remember that a rifleman does not shoot groups, he shoots shots." Jeff Cooper
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Bob, that sounds like my kind of rig! A 6x42 would rock, as would a 3-10/3-9. I just got a gloss Vari X IIc with an M1 elevation turret... Very sweet scope.
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How fast is the twist on your rifle?
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Bob-this is just my way but I'd do a 6x36 Leo w/M1 on top.
I'll see if I can't get my paws on some of these and give them a go in my 9 twist Brux.
Dober
(side note Bob, perhaps we'll should add some long range chuck shooting to go along with my Invitational Bruin hunt for Mashburn shooters...grin. I have some chuck colony's just begging to be taught respect)
"True respect starts with the way you treat others, and it is earned over a lifetime of demonstrating kindness, honor and dignity"....Tony Dungy
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Do they have a list of the minimum twist for the bullets posted anywhere?
Member: Clan of the Turdlike People.
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The 165 will shoot fine in a 10" twist, while the 175 requires closer to a 8.5T...
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Good to hear it'll work in a 10 twist, I'd be a bit suspect of it working to tell you the truth. What'd you use for a load along with it?
Thx
Dober
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Dober, today I ran 65gr of Retumbo. But I'm using the WSM case
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Dober,
I haven't used either bullet, personally. I'm just reporting what the manufacturer told me, as well as the common consensus among those that do use these bullets.
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Thx Jordan, I'll report in when have something to report.
Tanner, have you clocked that load yet?
Thx
Dober
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No sir, just preliminary stuff. I'm going to shoot a few more charges. I expect to be close to if not at 2900.
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Have you tried the 140 Bergs?
Dober
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Not yet. Only have a handful, but I'm going to go pick up a jug of '22 and wring them out.
Do you find that they shoot best closest to the lands too? Seems to be the concensus...
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Bob-this is just my way but I'd do a 6x36 Leo w/M1 on top.
I'll see if I can't get my paws on some of these and give them a go in my 9 twist Brux.
Dober
(side note Bob, perhaps we'll should add some long range chuck shooting to go along with my Invitational Bruin hunt for Mashburn shooters...grin. I have some chuck colony's just begging to be taught respect) Doberthat's right we have the same barrel...but yours is heavier.Yes I was thinking on the 6x36 as well.Works good on the Mashburn.Can we see those little rockchucks with a 6X?
The 280 Remington is overbore.
The 7 Rem Mag is over bore.
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the 165s and 66gr of Retumbo were running right at 2870. Accuracy was decent, probably can shoot a light tighter than I can.
I'll probably go ahead and buy a box of them to mess with further...
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Campfire 'Bwana
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huh....Thanks Tanner.Let us know...
Matrix have any load data for them in the WSM?
The 280 Remington is overbore.
The 7 Rem Mag is over bore.
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Shoulda' been a little more clear. I got that data from some guys over at LRH.com that have shot these bullets for a while. 65gr was pretty much an easy starting load, and from the lack of 'typical' pressure signs, and the speed, I could probably bump it up. But I'm happy with that speed... maybe I'll try 66.5.
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I expect (and hope) that they'd perform like a Scenar. Lots of stuff has been killed with 'em, but that doesn't really mean much They call them a hunting bullet... http://www.matrixballistics.com/.277-Caliber-rifle-bullets.html
This is a shooting forum, there is no place here for logic.
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True that! They DO say hunting VLD. I know they kill... the guy that sent me some to try killed a bull at 865 yds with one last year
Last edited by Tanner; 04/28/12.
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Interesting. That's a new addition to the website. It used to just say "VLD bullet", rather than "VLD hunting bullet".
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Noticed that as well. I was about to say that I've never heard or read them marketed as a hunting bullet when I went back and looked at the site! The few I recovered from the dirt (great test of bullet toughness/construction, I know ) looked good compared to the SSTs I found.
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Just found some loads for .270 getting 2700fps with the 165s, I think I will jump in and see how it goes.
Hunt hard, kill clean, waste nothing and offer no apologies.
"In rifle work, group size is of some interest...but it is well to remember that a rifleman does not shoot groups, he shoots shots." Jeff Cooper
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v.inc, how long is your barrel? That would be a fun one to play around with for sure. Did you see the article about the guy shooting matches with the 270/165 Matrix load?
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Did not see that article but feel free to shoot me a link. Im running a 24" tube.
Hunt hard, kill clean, waste nothing and offer no apologies.
"In rifle work, group size is of some interest...but it is well to remember that a rifleman does not shoot groups, he shoots shots." Jeff Cooper
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Well reading that just cost me $75 for bullets and a can of H1000. Right now Im pushing the 140 Berger at 2950fps, will have to see if the extra BC at 2700fps will play out to make a difference in the field. Are guys seeing Berger like performance on game or more like the Hornady interbonds?
Last edited by varmintsinc; 05/05/12.
Hunt hard, kill clean, waste nothing and offer no apologies.
"In rifle work, group size is of some interest...but it is well to remember that a rifleman does not shoot groups, he shoots shots." Jeff Cooper
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The VLD's aren't a bonded bullet, if that helps answer your question...
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Well, gee....how about that  This guy thinks the 270 Win with this Matrix bullet reminds him of his 7mm WSM with 168's at long range...out past 1000? And all it takes is a 9 twist and a high BC bullet,and voila! How could this be?....the Pawn Shop cartridge hangs with the 6.5's and the 7mm's?  How'd that happen?  A smart guy on here who shoots a lot once said....."Bullets,not headstamps". ..looks like the 270 detractors, are very good at knowing....what they don't know. My smith called....my 270 with 9 twist Brux.....is....finished!
The 280 Remington is overbore.
The 7 Rem Mag is over bore.
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I want some pics of the rig with the Brux complete with progress of the 165s
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Tanner I think this is really funny...considering the drubbing the old cartrige takes on here. The rifle is a 2 hour drive away...I will get out to get it as soon as time permits.
The 280 Remington is overbore.
The 7 Rem Mag is over bore.
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It's hilarious! Even with the 140-150s it can perform, and now those new 165s take it to a new level. Enough to get a guy excited
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I have used 56 of RL22 with the 160 Partition. My 165's should be in monday and will start with 55 of RL22. I am running a 1-9.25 Bartlien.
Last edited by RinB; 05/05/12.
“Perfection is achieved not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take away”.
Antoine de Saint-Exupery. Posted by Brad.
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Good stuff Rick.. I want to run the 160 someday through my WSM. That seems to be a heck of a bullet.
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It's hilarious! Even with the 140-150s it can perform, and now those new 165s take it to a new level. Enough to get a guy excited Even an old guy
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Holocaust Deniers, the ultimate perverted dipchits: Bristoe, TheRealHawkeye, stophel, Ghostinthemachine, anyone else?
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Might just be me, but I really think there is something cool about shooting LR with an old hoary cart like the 270... I may have to grab my brother's BDL for a week or two, slap a scope with a turret on it, and see what it can do Not that the 270WSM ain't the schit as well... grin
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Gee, just think...If a 270 with matrix bullets is now a long range performer, just think what a real 6.5 -or- 7mm can do with matrix bullets.
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Gee, just think...If a 270 with matrix bullets is now a long range performer, just think what a real 6.5 -or- 7mm can do with matrix bullets. Not a damned thing better, when comparing like powder capacities. Run the numbers....
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Just found some loads for .270 getting 2700fps with the 165s, I think I will jump in and see how it goes. 165gr .738 BC at 2700 fps? Nice.
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I hope those BCs are for real.
It's about time the 270Win becomes a relevant LR chambering.
You know the gunmakers will take until forever to change out of the 1/10 twist though. Too bad about that.
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I've talked to a few guys that told me the 165s worked out closer to .650, and a few others report that Matrix's BC is pretty darn close. I will hope and pray every day of my life for Hornady to make a 155gr .277" AMAX, but it'll never happen. Just not enough demand for 'em 
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If it's BC .650, that's still really good. A 26" 270 should be able to get 2900 fps out of that without pushing it. That'll fly.
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My 24" WSM is doing 2900 with very minimal load work thus far.
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It's about time the 270Win becomes a relevant LR chambering.
All we have had for years was 135gr SMK's and 150gr BT'S!!! Glad some folks are coming around. Mike
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A smart guy on here who shoots a lot once said....."Bullets,not headstamps". Yeah, it took him 10 years to finally come to that conclusion. My smith called....my 270 with 9 twist Brux.....is....finished! smile Sub moa or bust. Probably the later. Prove me wrong.....):( Those .277 BC's sound inflated, and you won't hunt Bergers? What makes this Matrix any better?
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Mike, have you shot the 135 quite a bit?
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A smart guy on here who shoots a lot once said....."Bullets,not headstamps". Yeah, it took him 10 years to finally come to that conclusion. My smith called....my 270 with 9 twist Brux.....is....finished! smile Sub moa or bust. Probably the later. Prove me wrong.....):( Those .277 BC's sound inflated, and you won't hunt Bergers? What makes this Matrix any better? Most of Bob's stuff shoots pretty damn well. I'd put my money on well under Sub MOA.
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Mike, have you shot the 135 quite a bit? Never bothered! Have shot the 150's but never past 300 yrds so nothing to call longrange. Mike
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Ahh, got ya. I've wanted to try those 135s for a while and just haven't gotten around to it.
My brother has killed a few elk with the 150 BT, that is one heck of a bullet...
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Lilja speaks highly of the BT 150's in his Long Range article out of a .270 Wthby.
Mike
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I've read about Dan's Bee a bit. Seems that he also liked the 130 (not a BT, though) at about 3500fps!
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Gee, just think...If a 270 with matrix bullets is now a long range performer, just think what a real 6.5 -or- 7mm can do with matrix bullets. I was thinking the same thing...but didnt want to rain on parades 277.....pawn shop deer killers :p (still gotta get me a 277 wizztana...maybe when I cash my vacation pay in)
If I were smart enough, which apparently I'm not
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Gee, just think...If a 270 with matrix bullets is now a long range performer, just think what a real 6.5 -or- 7mm can do with matrix bullets. The 7mm 190 would be nasty for certain at like 2850-2900. Going REALLY fast, in a RUM/STW/Allen Mag it'd be an absolute freak. But, with the right BC bullet, I don't believe the 6.5 really kicks the 270/270WSM's ass anymore, granted there will be a bit more recoil in the .270s. A +.6 BC bullet going 2900-2950 is a +.6 BC bullet going 2900-2950, the way I see it. Not that I don't still want a 6.5/06
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Gee, just think...If a 270 with matrix bullets is now a long range performer, just think what a real 6.5 -or- 7mm can do with matrix bullets. I was thinking the same thing...but didnt want to rain on parades 277.....pawn shop deer killers :p (still gotta get me a 277 wizztana...maybe when I cash my vacation pay in) Win or Wizzum?
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Win or Wizzum? Last year i traded into an 8400 Wintucky (270 WCF). Its what gave me the itch to buy my 223 'Tana. We get paid our vacation pay every 6 months...needless to say I have my eyes peeled for a WSM Montanny right now Heres what I eloquently referred to as "Wintucky". Was a long mag action, lets just say I could kiss lands and make most 270 WSMs nervouse speedwise ![[Linked Image]](http://i982.photobucket.com/albums/ae310/archie_james_c/000_0001.jpg)
Last edited by archie_james_c; 05/07/12.
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Dude, you're about a week and a half late. You could have had my 7WSM Montana...
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Guys,
Matrix BC values are static, calculate BC's. Litz tested the 190gr 7mm Matrix VLD, and found the true G1 value to be somewhat under the static value listed. FWIW.
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Nice, killer rig there. Mine doesn't scream velocity wise, may have to wake it up with Magpro I'm looking at 3100-3150 with 140s currently.
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Jordan, vacation pay isnt paid out till the end of June, Im mearly checking schit out right now. Ideally Id like to find a 325 WSM that "doesnt shoot" for cheap Tanner, keep playing around with powders...youll find where you wanna be eventually. Just dont get caught up in finding magic sub 1/2 moa loads...been there..its a waste of time. I clocked my Wintana at 3300+ with 130 TTSX's accuracy sat around 1-1.25" at 100. What a cool rifle to fug with.
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Effin' A Cotton! That's speedy. Mine goes under an inch, and I'm totally content with that. Waputis and deers are pretty large
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Nice, killer rig there. Mine doesn't scream velocity wise, may have to wake it up with Magpro I'm looking at 3100-3150 with 140s currently. With your WSM? Im running the 140 berger at about 2975fps out of a regular old .270, I was thinking the WSM would net about 300fps more.
Hunt hard, kill clean, waste nothing and offer no apologies.
"In rifle work, group size is of some interest...but it is well to remember that a rifleman does not shoot groups, he shoots shots." Jeff Cooper
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A smart guy on here who shoots a lot once said....."Bullets,not headstamps". Yeah, it took him 10 years to finally come to that conclusion. My smith called....my 270 with 9 twist Brux.....is....finished! smile Sub moa or bust. Probably the later. Prove me wrong.....): Those .277 BC's sound inflated, and you won't hunt Bergers? What makes this Matrix any better? Three posts? And you know what I'll hunt with? LOL! Looks like you created a personna just to have a discussion....somehow I think you been here before..  Sub MOA won't be an issue;hasn't been for years.I won't tell you though...not used to accomodating strangers. Buy a Brux and find out for yourself.... Talk to Matrix about the numbers. IIRC this is my third 9 twist 270 barrel;along about the same time I had 8.5" 7mm's,and 9" 30's....the first came....oh....30 years ago..for some, I guess this is something new. But you're right, I don't hunt with Bergers and likely won't use these either but maybe I'll get around to it...Really,I don't care.But I will shoot them. The 6.5 and 7mm fans who criticize the 270 generally stack the deck, then say the 270 is inferior.....Makes me laugh.....give it the right twist,equivilent bullets,a 26-28" barrel (I guess some actually hunt with those things?! a 6.5 or 7mm on the same case will hold no huge advantage,if anything...this bullet proves that. Anyone with a loading manual can tell this by comparing "normal" 6.5 or 7mm bullets from a 6.5/06 and a 280....what makes them think that a 270 would not perform right along with either using equivilent high BC bullets? Funny notion.They will tell you, straight faced, the 270 doesn't have the bullets.....well, that's changed.Here they are... Same case, only .264,.277,.284? If you think about it,there can't be that great a difference except for bullets and twist...Well, here it is.But most people just repeat what they hear...as opposed to actually shooting shidt to find out.So' I'll shoot to find out. But we had this discussion already.The jury is out.....Jordan and Cocadori ran the numbers on the 165 Matrix and the 170 Berger from the 270 Win......and now we see people are shooting them.Game over....try a 9 twist 270.
The 280 Remington is overbore.
The 7 Rem Mag is over bore.
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But the bullet manufacturers just skipped right over the .277 bore when they iron the suck of the 6.5's and 7mm.
It's like they........... knew things.
The CENTER will hold.
Reality, Patriotism,Trump: you can only pick two
FÜCK PUTIN!
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Jeff, go back to bed... What the bullet makers "knew",is it worked fine as a hunting round with the bullets of the day when it came out...and that continues today,taking more game,here and elsewhere, than all the 6.5 and 7mm pets combined.A fact that gives many a lot of heartburn And you know I'm a 7mm fan... You know exactly what I'm saying....it's all bullets and twist.The bullet issue isn't an "issue" anymore,now....is it? There something about bullets with a BC of .650 to over .700 that someone doesn't understand? Even I get it,and banging gongs in PNW clearcuts at 1000 yards is only vaguely entertaining to me... You guys are just reticent because your sacred cows just got gored... Keep groping for a leg up....the "no bullets" argument just got snapped out from under....you should maybe try one.Would it be your first?
The 280 Remington is overbore.
The 7 Rem Mag is over bore.
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But the bullet manufacturers just skipped right over the .277 bore when they iron the suck of the 6.5's and 7mm.
It's like they........... knew things. No because the 270 was never a target or military cartridge, just one designed as a pure hunting cartridge so what they "knew" was there wasn't a market for high BC bullets like there was in 6.5 and 7mm's.
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Nice, killer rig there. Mine doesn't scream velocity wise, may have to wake it up with Magpro I'm looking at 3100-3150 with 140s currently. With your WSM? Im running the 140 berger at about 2975fps out of a regular old .270, I was thinking the WSM would net about 300fps more. I should be able to get closer to 3300fps with Magpro, but I am going with the H4831sc load right now because I like that insurance with the temp stability. Like Bob and I both said, a .65 BC moving 2950 is a .65 BC moving 2950. The only difference now is that the .277 bullets are a bit more expensive, something that'll hopefully change when the MFGs pull their heads out of their arses. The .270s will have less recoil than a big 7(Rem Mag, WSM, STW, RUM) and yeah, probably a bit less reach than one running say a 180 Berger. But, I really think they will run neck and neck with the 6.5s and most 7s at practical long range. There's a reason those guys over at EOL are using the WSM case and the new 170 Berger. And, IMO, if you can't handle the recoil of a 165gr pill traveling 2950, then pick your purse back up and go home
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Has anyone related any experience with the heavier matrix bullets at higher velocities? I still have a few hundred of the 169.5gr wildcats. Fear of running out of bullets has slowed down my shooting of my 270AM, a lot.
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I know a guy over at LRH.com has run the 165s up to 3100fps out of his WSM.
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But the bullet manufacturers just skipped right over the .277 bore when they iron the suck of the 6.5's and 7mm.
It's like they........... knew things. It's their origins Jeff;not the bore size.This has been said here before,but the 6.5 and 7mm's existed as military calibers....and among the first smokeless calibers as well.Their "forte" was long, heavy for caliber bullets in both military and sporting configurations,and fast twists to stabilize them.The military heritage insured they'd be used for target work as well...As new cases were developed, the fast twists stuck around You can look this up by reading about the use of 6.5's and 7mm Mauser in Africa and North America back around and after the turn of the 20th Century. The 270, OTOH, started out as a high velocity cartridge, lighter bullets at high velocity,and as a hunting cartridge.This actually distinguished it from "other" cartridges of the time. Why .277? No one seems to really know exactly why.....but there is nothing inherently inferior about it.....it's just twist and bullets....And commonly repeated misconceptions,common usage, and truisms that aren't really "true"..We sure see a lot of that.
The 280 Remington is overbore.
The 7 Rem Mag is over bore.
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Id also like to see a VLD type pill for the 257...it'd make the 25 BEE worth owning. But I think now that the Berger 277 is out hornady and others will follow suite .
If I were smart enough, which apparently I'm not
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I sure as schit hope so. A .277 AMAX would be like Christmas for me.
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There already is a VLD pill for the .257 Granted, the 115gr VLD ain't exactly spectacular, and a 125gr A-Max would be a whole bunch of awesome.
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It's pretty simple, ain't it, Bob? As a general rule of thumb, as bore diameter goes up, the potential BC values also go up. There really are no "cursed" calibers, it's just that more R&D has been put into designing good, high-BC bullets for some calibers than others.
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Agreed! A 125 .257 would be fun as heck out of the 25/06Ack/257Bee/25-284! Seeing a friend hit steel at 1k with a 117GK out of a 25/06 left little doubt in my mind. Shall we start a petition to Hornady? I'd like .277" goodness first
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My 300 wsm spits 150's at 3300 fps on Win 760, my 7wsm shoots 140's about 50fps fast on same. I think I was still around 3250 when I tried 4831. Think you got a bit you can still go tanner. Ps all were book loads too
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yeah, I definitely have some more speed to chase.
760 is a ball powder right?
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Agreed! A 125 .257 would be fun as heck out of the 25/06Ack/257Bee/25-284! Seeing a friend hit steel at 1k with a 117GK out of a 25/06 left little doubt in my mind. Shall we start a petition to Hornady? I'd like .277" goodness first It certainly would! I know of one coyote who felt safe at 942 yards until a 100gr MK from my .25-06 told him otherwise. A 125gr A-Max would leave the 100MK in the dust...
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Fug the 25 and 27 'maxs I just hope my 75's spin in the Minitucky Loaded some to a kiss last night. Called the steel shop in town, 14"x14"x1" AR400 has been cut for moi and hopefully will be rang tonight! Jordan, I ordered 200x 68 BTHP's, 200x 75 BTHPs, and 200 7mm Amaxs today Yogi beware...
If I were smart enough, which apparently I'm not
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Minitucky....thinkin' you heard that somewhere before... 7SAUM for the 162's? Why'd you order so many? All you need is one *grin*
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Dude, you can't kill schit with a .22 CF.
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My Shamu loves amaxs, and the 162's are like pringles, once you pop you cant stop . And yes, I stole Minitucky from you...get over yourself Not sure I wanna sport amaxs for Moose this year, but I can always substitute a *shudder* accubond*
If I were smart enough, which apparently I'm not
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I just got 200 AMAXes in for the 280, and it ain't going to be enough. Wish they'd sell them in boxes of 600...
Didn't one of those guys up in AK poke some holes in some swamp donkeys with the AM? I can't grow the ballbag to spend 35-40 bucks on 50 Accubonds.
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It's pretty simple, ain't it, Bob? As a general rule of thumb, as bore diameter goes up, the potential BC values also go up. There really are no "cursed" calibers, it's just that more R&D has been put into designing good, high-BC bullets for some calibers than others. Jordan based on my limited knowledge of such things, it sure seems that's the case.
The 280 Remington is overbore.
The 7 Rem Mag is over bore.
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Dude, you can't kill schit with a .22 CF. Unfortunately, local law restricts me to varmints only, but I happen to know that they are capable of a little more than that
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My Shamu loves amaxs, and the 162's are like pringles, once you pop you cant stop . And yes, I stole Minitucky from you...get over yourself Not sure I wanna sport amaxs for Moose this year, but I can always substitute a *shudder* accubond* If my moose comes out at anything over 300 yards this year, he's gonna get a 162AM in the boiler room. If he appears closer than that, I'll drive a 140TTSX through his front shoulder. I know what you mean about the Pringles thing. When the wind starts to gust, the 140PH FF load goes back in the range bag, and the 162's come out to play.
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FWIW Ive seen bull moose fall to 223's, and nuisance bears dropped with 223 and 22-250's. Most werent lung shots though. Like I was telling Jordan, if I see a runt blackie close enough and the Twintucky is in tow i'll likely sting him with a 75 . Thats if work unbolts the shackles off my feet
If I were smart enough, which apparently I'm not
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I just got 200 AMAXes in for the 280, and it ain't going to be enough. Wish they'd sell them in boxes of 600...
Didn't one of those guys up in AK poke some holes in some swamp donkeys with the AM? I can't grow the ballbag to spend 35-40 bucks on 50 Accubonds. I've got 1300 162's sitting on the shelf, which should get me through the summer. Come fall, I'm not gonna hesitate to ventilate Bullwinkle with an AM if I get the chance... I mind the price when talking about practice bullets, but I fire maybe 10-15 hunting bullets through each rifle every year, so a few extra dollars for the good stuff ain't gonna kill me
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1300! How'd you do that deal?
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1300! How'd you do that deal? Went up to AK and raided Sticks stash.
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Haha. Not hard to stock up if you clean out your local sporting goods store each time you go in
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Thinking he'd have closer to 13,000 if he did that
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What do they go for up there? 25-28 bucks/100?
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If I were smart enough, which apparently I'm not
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The smaller AM like the .224 75gr and the .243 105gr go for about $28-29 a box, but the 162 goes for $38.99 plus 5% tax where I'm at.
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Crossing that wonderful border costs money...
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Does a frog bump his ass when he jumps?
If I were smart enough, which apparently I'm not
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Does Raggedy Ann have a cloth p**sy?! That's a good one too...
Crazy that the cost jumps up that much.
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I just got 200 AMAXes in for the 280, and it ain't going to be enough. Wish they'd sell them in boxes of 600...
Didn't one of those guys up in AK poke some holes in some swamp donkeys with the AM? I can't grow the ballbag to spend 35-40 bucks on 50 Accubonds. I've got 1300 162's sitting on the shelf, which should get me through the summer. Come fall, I'm not gonna hesitate to ventilate Bullwinkle with an AM if I get the chance... I mind the price when talking about practice bullets, but I fire maybe 10-15 hunting bullets through each rifle every year, so a few extra dollars for the good stuff ain't gonna kill me How many 7's you got? 1300 rounds is more than smokepole got out of his P-N 7 WSM before the throat went south... I've currently only got around 400 of the 162's on hand but my buddy at the gun shop keeps them in stock for me...
The CENTER will hold.
Reality, Patriotism,Trump: you can only pick two
FÜCK PUTIN!
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But the bullet manufacturers just skipped right over the .277 bore when they iron the suck of the 6.5's and 7mm.
It's like they........... knew things. It's their origins Jeff;not the bore size.This has been said here before,but the 6.5 and 7mm's existed as military calibers....and among the first smokeless calibers as well.Their "forte" was long, heavy for caliber bullets in both military and sporting configurations,and fast twists to stabilize them.The military heritage insured they'd be used for target work as well...As new cases were developed, the fast twists stuck around You can look this up by reading about the use of 6.5's and 7mm Mauser in Africa and North America back around and after the turn of the 20th Century. The 270, OTOH, started out as a high velocity cartridge, lighter bullets at high velocity,and as a hunting cartridge.This actually distinguished it from "other" cartridges of the time. Why .277? No one seems to really know exactly why.....but there is nothing inherently inferior about it.....it's just twist and bullets....And commonly repeated misconceptions,common usage, and truisms that aren't really "true"..We sure see a lot of that. I know... I was just messing with you late-night! I'm happy for you poor .277 SOB's that the bullet designers are FINALLY getting off their butts and makin you some bullets. Given the number of .270's out there it's kind of a head scratcher to be honest why it's taken so long.
The CENTER will hold.
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FÜCK PUTIN!
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Way I see it, you aren't going to notice the difference between a .5 BC and a .65 BC under 6-700 yards, unless there is a big fat wind. And maybe it's just me and my way, but I'm not going to shoot at game if there's enough wind to make me question myself...
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I just got 200 AMAXes in for the 280, and it ain't going to be enough. Wish they'd sell them in boxes of 600...
Didn't one of those guys up in AK poke some holes in some swamp donkeys with the AM? I can't grow the ballbag to spend 35-40 bucks on 50 Accubonds. I've got 1300 162's sitting on the shelf, which should get me through the summer. Come fall, I'm not gonna hesitate to ventilate Bullwinkle with an AM if I get the chance... I mind the price when talking about practice bullets, but I fire maybe 10-15 hunting bullets through each rifle every year, so a few extra dollars for the good stuff ain't gonna kill me How many 7's you got? 1300 rounds is more than smokepole got out of his P-N 7 WSM before the throat went south... A couple few... *grin*
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Because
Given the number of .270's out there it's kind of a head scratcher to be honest why it's taken so long.
Because there are maybe (a big maybe) 1 in 100 hunters that have even the faintest idea of how to shoot past 200 yards. From what I've seen of the those who actively hunt, it's more like 1 in 500, or 1 in a 1,000.
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Form, can you go into what you mean by 'know how' to shoot past 200 a little more? Just proper shot placement/knowledge of ballistics/field positioning?
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Because
Given the number of .270's out there it's kind of a head scratcher to be honest why it's taken so long.
Because there are maybe (a big maybe) 1 in 100 hunters that have even the faintest idea of how to shoot past 200 yards. From what I've seen of the those who actively hunt, it's more like 1 in 500, or 1 in a 1,000. Form-not sure where you live or hunt but where I'm from it'd be a grave mistake to bet against the vast majority of the hunters past 200 yds. Sure, past 400 people get a bit wonky. But, day in and day out I can't say it'd be tough to find a good game shot around here that can go a lot longer than 200 with ease and then some! I've worked the our ranges sight in days and far and away the people are more than capable with a gun. And, with proper coaching it aint no bigga casa grande to get people ready to hot game to 400 under the right conditions and with the right set ups and proper training. Just what I've observed in my part of the world. Dober
"True respect starts with the way you treat others, and it is earned over a lifetime of demonstrating kindness, honor and dignity"....Tony Dungy
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Because
Given the number of .270's out there it's kind of a head scratcher to be honest why it's taken so long.
Because there are maybe (a big maybe) 1 in 100 hunters that have even the faintest idea of how to shoot past 200 yards. From what I've seen of the those who actively hunt, it's more like 1 in 500, or 1 in a 1,000. Well.....yeah.....there IS that! JeffO: I knew you were messin' which is why I told ya to go back to bed! Yeah it has been a terrible handicap with a 270 all these years.....those times I felt terribly handicapped, I grabbed a 7mm of some sort.That fixed things.... My second head of western game was a pronghorn.....through a 4X,he looked far.I held for 400 yards and killed him with a chest shot.Of course, by then, I had piles of woodchucks under my belt,many killed with a 270;plus many rounds at the range out to 500 or so.Thoughts of handicaps have not entered my mind much.But then,that was "short range" shooting...
The 280 Remington is overbore.
The 7 Rem Mag is over bore.
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Because
Given the number of .270's out there it's kind of a head scratcher to be honest why it's taken so long.
Because there are maybe (a big maybe) 1 in 100 hunters that have even the faintest idea of how to shoot past 200 yards. From what I've seen of the those who actively hunt, it's more like 1 in 500, or 1 in a 1,000. Form-not sure where you live or hunt but where I'm from it'd be a grave mistake to bet against the vast majority of the hunters past 200 yds. Sure, past 400 people get a bit wonky. But, day in and day out I can't say it'd be tough to find a good game shot around here that can go a lot longer than 200 with ease and then some! I've worked the our ranges sight in days and far and away the people are more than capable with a gun. And, with proper coaching it aint no bigga casa grande to get people ready to hot game to 400 under the right conditions and with the right set ups and proper training. Just what I've observed in my part of the world. Dober Mark is right on target-- Out here in God's country, 375-400 yard shots are something that alot of hunters can do--on demand--on big game animals. However, more than just a few others can do the same on yodel dogs--a much tougher target. My old friend Savage could regularly whack 'em at up to 500--but for a time he made his living at it, and was dead serious about controlling all of the variables that he possibly could. My old hunting/shooting friend Pat (scenarshooter), can whack dogs so far out you would never believe it--and no, i'm not talking 1000 yard shots...the fact is if anyone really saw, and knew what he can do out in the field--on demand--against wily/wary targets, it would flat out turn their blood to spit...
all learning is like a funnel:
however, contrary to popular thought, one begins with the the narrow end.
the more you progress, the more it expands into greater discovery--and the less of an audience you will have...
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Way I see it, you aren't going to notice the difference between a .5 BC and a .65 BC under 6-700 yards, unless there is a big fat wind. And maybe it's just me and my way, but I'm not going to shoot at game if there's enough wind to make me question myself... I'd contest the 6-700 yard part and move it closer-- say 450, 500 yards. But in general I agree. Seems like it's usually windy when I'm shooting; perhaps that colors my opinion.
The CENTER will hold.
Reality, Patriotism,Trump: you can only pick two
FÜCK PUTIN!
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Form, can you go into what you mean by 'know how' to shoot past 200 a little more? Just proper shot placement/knowledge of ballistics/field positioning? All of the above. I probably should have stated 200 yards in the East, and 300 or 400 in the West. I have hunted in 8 or 9 states in the East and and have never just stumbled on someone who knew what they were doing at long range. I have met and hunted with a few but I knew them before going hunting. Of course I have ran into the guys with the equipment to go long, or at least they thought so, but none actually could perform at distance. I also meet guys that are capable LR shooters but they don't hunt, or if they do it amounts to them shooting deer off of their porch. These were/are the F Class/1,000 yard benchrest type. I did have a couple of guys come out that had custom 300 Jarretts, Ziess scopes with the Rapid Z reticles that could hit out to 500 or so if they could use their bipods. But come to find out Jarrett built the rifles, mounted the scopes, zeroed the rifles, and worked the loads until the drops matched the reticles. They didn't know how to adjust for wind, how to dial at all, only one even owned a rangefinder, and neither knew how to sight in their own rifles. Take the bench away or leave prone and the bipod and something at 150 was more then likely safe.
Form-not sure where you live or hunt but where I'm from it'd be a grave mistake to bet against the vast majority of the hunters past 200 yds. Sure, past 400 people get a bit wonky. But, day in and day out I can't say it'd be tough to find a good game shot around here that can go a lot longer than 200 with ease and then some!
I've worked the our ranges sight in days and far and away the people are more than capable with a gun.
And, with proper coaching it aint no bigga casa grande to get people ready to hot game to 400 under the right conditions and with the right set ups and proper training.
Just what I've observed in my part of the world.
Dober
As I said above out West there certainly seems to be more people that can shoot in the 3-400 yard range. We met some guys in the San Juans a few years back that had killed a barely legal bull Elk. It was a couple days before our season started and we were out scouting when we heard 11 or 12 shots and meandered up the ridge to see what was up. There were a couple of guys standing around shaking hands and what not when we walked up. We started talking and they told us what they had killed. They had decent equipment and talked like they knew what they ware doing at least somewhat, but under time constraints and pressure two of them shot almost a dozen times at an Elk starting at 400 and ending at just over 600 yards. Hunting deer out West not to long ago we met and talked to probably close to a hundred hunters and not one was comfortable with long shots. We went to check zeroes the day before the season opened and stopped by one of the main camping spots on the NF land where we were to let the people there know we were going to shoot a few rounds. Just like the fellows from CO we met a group of guys that had the equipment and talked a good game about 5 and 600 yard killing. We through a pack down and picked out a smallish rock at around 300 and a clump of dirt at about 550. We of course hit them with our first shots as thats pretty easy range for even normal rifles, but you would have thought they just saw a miracle the way they acted. Like most I have contact with, when they are actually holding a rifle with a target/animal in front of them, they seemed to know more about talking about LR shooting then actually doing it. FWIW.... I killed both of my deer on that hunt at shorter ranges. One at sitting at 382, and the other at 369 of a pack. I think what happens (it certainly was the case for me) is that if we like to shoot/hunt LR/race/etc., then we tend to associate with those who like to do the same, and start to think that there are more of us then what there really are. Especially if you frequent forums. It wasn't until I joined the military, started traveling and competing that I realized how..... limited... most are. Just like the "sub MOA all day long rifle crowd" it seems everybody is a riflemen on the internet. However, I've run into people at matches and in the military that talked good about the longish shots on the net but inevitably when the caps start getting popped those 1/2 MOA rifles aren't and the real comfortable out to 500 yard hunting types aren't either. There are exceptions such as George Gardner, Scenar Shooter and some other well known guys, and I'm sure that Dober, BobinNH and a few others are completely capable, but in my experience they are not the norm. I maintain that if you took 100 hunters from random and gave them thirty seconds to range, setup and hit a 8-10 inch plate at 400 to 500 yards starting from standing holding their rifle and pack that very, very, very few would hit it. Of those that did hit it most would be from guessing and "luck" more then skill and knowledge.
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FormD, really cool post... interesting to hear about the different types you come across.
I killed a muley buck and a cow this year, at 360yds and 340yds respectively. At that point in my experience (or lack thereof) that is about as far as I would've shot at game. Fortunately, I was confident and made two really good shots. Now that I've taken up the process and gained knowledge exponentially (compared to what I used to know), I would expand that range now to about 500 yards, prone off a pack. Not that I wouldn't try to stalk closer, but I would indeed take a 500 yard shot if the situation called for it.
It's really, really cool to see how a decent piece of glass with a functional elevation turret coupled with an accurate load can transform a rifle.
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I have belonged to a club of match shooters for 40+- years,who compete nationally and in Canada;so am used to being around people who can shoot.Some hunt....many do not.But they can all shoot.
I don't think people like Dober and Pat and Formid,and some others on here are at all typical among hunters,especially in the east,where hunting is typically done at moderate distances.I have taken quite a few people to 300 and 400 yards...guys who have hunted for years...and have never touched off a round at that distance,and would not even consider shooting at an animal that far away. They simply do not know what to do.
This is largely a function of interest, practice, inclination,and opportunity.If you can only access a 200 yard range,or a 500-1000 yard range or ground once a year, you simply will never be able to contemplate shooting any furhter than the outer limits of your ability to practice continuously in order to be proficient.
Being in tune with a rifle takes time and lots of rounds at chosen distances and positions....not many are truly willing to put in that kind of time and effort and expense to be truly proficient.
The 280 Remington is overbore.
The 7 Rem Mag is over bore.
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I guess I'm not like everyone else. Most will say that while they are confident killing at _______ yards (say 500) that they would try to stalk closer. See I don't get that. I will take the first available, makable shot that the animal presents. If a deer/elk/bear steps out at 500(?) yards I'm not trying to stalk closer even if I could. I'm turfing it and now.
It's really, really cool to see how a decent piece of glass with a functional elevation turret coupled with an accurate load can transform a rifle.
No doubt. When I started to shoot long range as a teenager I had a rough road. Now it's very easy to find a normal off the shelf hunting rifle/scope/ammo combination that is perfectly capable at med-long range. Next time you are shooting try setting up an 8-10 inch target at 400 to 450 yards or so and time yourself cold, no warmups. Start standing, wearing your pack and holding your rifle. At the start signal range it, setup your pack, figure wind, dial/hold and see how long it takes for that first round and whether you hit it or not. No mulligans or alibis. Then see what the average for 5 runs at it is. I bet you'll be surprised. I bet everyone would be surprised. Putting hunters/shooters on the timer in that very drill has hushed a lot of the "he's ______ yards away and you only have 10 seconds to shoot before he gets away" nonsense... Matter of fact if Dober and BobinNH are reading I would be very interested to see what ya'lls times are for the above drill. I have timed a bunch of people on it, but am very interested in what different good animal killers can do, and from what I read I think you both probably fit that. Anyone else that wants to try it would be great also.
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Reading over this I just want to make it clear that I'm not saying that I, or what I'm presenting is the end all be all. Not in the least. I know some may take it that way. I shoot a lot and see a lot of shooters, but I still miss and screw up a bunch. This is really more just gabbing about ballistic gack and BS'ing about observations.
You never stop learning and I am truly interested in this stuff and others experiences.
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Matter of fact if Dober and BobinNH are reading I would be very interested to see what ya'lls times are for the above drill. I have timed a bunch of people on it, but am very interested in what different good animal killers can do, and from what I read I think you both probably fit that. Anyone else that wants to try it would be great also.
Formid I can try that.....I've been timed off hand for close ,fast shots while working the action,but not as you describe. I know Dober does it that way.When I get a friend at the range with me I will do it...and will time myself if necessary. I will be honest
The 280 Remington is overbore.
The 7 Rem Mag is over bore.
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Took my new fancy AR400 plate out today. Just set it at 300 yards and let the Twintana chew at it for 80 or so rounds. Guns grouping ok with 75 amaxs kissing with benchmark behind them, so I suppose if I were to actually wipe-out my barrel and shoot off a bench I could get good groups...who cares though. Took my good friend out and got him shooting it to get his mind off his kid and ex-girl friend. He has about 4 hours trigger time in his life and he already says 300 yds is boring
If I were smart enough, which apparently I'm not
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Gee, just think...If a 270 with matrix bullets is now a long range performer, just think what a real 6.5 -or- 7mm can do with matrix bullets. I'm thinking these bullets would be perfect in a 270 Weatherby, I've been looking for one of the old Southgate models built on an FN Mauser action. A new 26" barrel with a 1 in 9' twist would be just about right. Thanks! I handed down my late 1960s vintage BDL in 270 to my youngest son after hunting everything but brown bear with it for 40 years. I think you gave me a reason to buy a 270 Weatherby!
Last edited by colorado; 05/08/12.
Regards,
Chuck
"There's a saying in prize fighting, everyone's got a plan until they get hit"
Ghost And The Darkness
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Form, can you go into what you mean by 'know how' to shoot past 200 a little more? Just proper shot placement/knowledge of ballistics/field positioning? All of the above. I probably should have stated 200 yards in the East, and 300 or 400 in the West. I have hunted in 8 or 9 states in the East and and have never just stumbled on someone who knew what they were doing at long range. I have met and hunted with a few but I knew them before going hunting. Of course I have ran into the guys with the equipment to go long, or at least they thought so, but none actually could perform at distance. I also meet guys that are capable LR shooters but they don't hunt, or if they do it amounts to them shooting deer off of their porch. These were/are the F Class/1,000 yard benchrest type. I did have a couple of guys come out that had custom 300 Jarretts, Ziess scopes with the Rapid Z reticles that could hit out to 500 or so if they could use their bipods. But come to find out Jarrett built the rifles, mounted the scopes, zeroed the rifles, and worked the loads until the drops matched the reticles. They didn't know how to adjust for wind, how to dial at all, only one even owned a rangefinder, and neither knew how to sight in their own rifles. Take the bench away or leave prone and the bipod and something at 150 was more then likely safe.
Form-not sure where you live or hunt but where I'm from it'd be a grave mistake to bet against the vast majority of the hunters past 200 yds. Sure, past 400 people get a bit wonky. But, day in and day out I can't say it'd be tough to find a good game shot around here that can go a lot longer than 200 with ease and then some!
I've worked the our ranges sight in days and far and away the people are more than capable with a gun.
And, with proper coaching it aint no bigga casa grande to get people ready to hot game to 400 under the right conditions and with the right set ups and proper training.
Just what I've observed in my part of the world.
Dober
As I said above out West there certainly seems to be more people that can shoot in the 3-400 yard range. We met some guys in the San Juans a few years back that had killed a barely legal bull Elk. It was a couple days before our season started and we were out scouting when we heard 11 or 12 shots and meandered up the ridge to see what was up. There were a couple of guys standing around shaking hands and what not when we walked up. We started talking and they told us what they had killed. They had decent equipment and talked like they knew what they ware doing at least somewhat, but under time constraints and pressure two of them shot almost a dozen times at an Elk starting at 400 and ending at just over 600 yards. Hunting deer out West not to long ago we met and talked to probably close to a hundred hunters and not one was comfortable with long shots. We went to check zeroes the day before the season opened and stopped by one of the main camping spots on the NF land where we were to let the people there know we were going to shoot a few rounds. Just like the fellows from CO we met a group of guys that had the equipment and talked a good game about 5 and 600 yard killing. We through a pack down and picked out a smallish rock at around 300 and a clump of dirt at about 550. We of course hit them with our first shots as thats pretty easy range for even normal rifles, but you would have thought they just saw a miracle the way they acted. Like most I have contact with, when they are actually holding a rifle with a target/animal in front of them, they seemed to know more about talking about LR shooting then actually doing it. FWIW.... I killed both of my deer on that hunt at shorter ranges. One at sitting at 382, and the other at 369 of a pack. I think what happens (it certainly was the case for me) is that if we like to shoot/hunt LR/race/etc., then we tend to associate with those who like to do the same, and start to think that there are more of us then what there really are. Especially if you frequent forums. It wasn't until I joined the military, started traveling and competing that I realized how..... limited... most are. Just like the "sub MOA all day long rifle crowd" it seems everybody is a riflemen on the internet. However, I've run into people at matches and in the military that talked good about the longish shots on the net but inevitably when the caps start getting popped those 1/2 MOA rifles aren't and the real comfortable out to 500 yard hunting types aren't either. There are exceptions such as George Gardner, Scenar Shooter and some other well known guys, and I'm sure that Dober, BobinNH and a few others are completely capable, but in my experience they are not the norm. I maintain that if you took 100 hunters from random and gave them thirty seconds to range, setup and hit a 8-10 inch plate at 400 to 500 yards starting from standing holding their rifle and pack that very, very, very few would hit it. Of those that did hit it most would be from guessing and "luck" more then skill and knowledge. 30 seconds isn't much time to range, dial, and get in a solid enough setup to hit that plate at 500 yds. I'll have to time myself and see how close I can get (to 30 seconds). Might not be pretty, because I haven't yet started putting a time stress on my initial setup... which is foolish, and you are correct that it's an extremely valuable thing to be good at! Or would be, lol. Shooting off a pack wasn't kind to me when I gave it a run a while back. Packs are just so variable- they can have hard spots, soft spots, tilts, etc just from what is in them. I decided a bipod was a much more valuable learning tool for the early going. Much more consistent. At this point my longest game shot is a bit shy of 300 yards (elk). Hit her exactly where I meant to. It was at a STEEP up-angle so I shot standing leaned against a tree. I should get the high-desert mule deer tag I've been saving for; just put in for it. That'll be a whole different ballgame than my blacktail hunting. Shots are often measured in feet there-- which is an art in itself-- but I suspect this fall, I'll be in different conditions. I'm going to be working all summer to be as proficient as possible by then. I will add a stopwatch to my regime.
The CENTER will hold.
Reality, Patriotism,Trump: you can only pick two
FÜCK PUTIN!
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FormD, I'm in the very situation myself as a learning teenager (I AM an adult though!) And a 243 was GREAT to learn on, and now the Lightweight rigs I've put together are a whole new learning process. I really like your drill of throwing the pack down and putting bullets on a target as quick as possible.
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Form, the range I go to most often goes to 434 yds with steel. One of my fav drills is to hit the turf with 3 down, get in behind the rig (7 Mashburn Super with dotz to 700 in a 4-14 Leo) and hit the gong 3x's as fast as I can work the bolt.
My goal...was to have the 2nd round off b4 the sound of the 1st round got to me. Couldn't quite do it, however the 2nd or 3rd round but was close enough that any game would of felt like it was getting rabbit punched....grin
If I recall right the time for the drill was along the lines of 10 seconds. But, I wasn't ranging it as I already knew the range and I had dotz which elimanates one movement.
The barrel on this rig is roasted (this is the 8th tube) but I'll see if it has one more range time in it. Can't guarantee the grouping with it as it's really far gone.
The 7 Mashburn has enough bump to it that it can and does move me off target and it takes a skosh to reaquire. I'll do the test with my flyweight .260 as well.
Back when I was guiding I could always tell the natural born killers by watching them in the presence of game. The NBK's would be looking for a "nest" as soon as they saw the game they wanted to kill. The others, they'd be gawking around, and looking at the animal while it was making plans to go elsewhere. The NBK's would generally have the critter on the ground b4 the others thought about getting into the game.
Fun stuff
Dober
Side note, I've long believed that pretty much all rounds and shooters are equal to 300 yds.
Last edited by Mark R Dobrenski; 05/08/12.
"True respect starts with the way you treat others, and it is earned over a lifetime of demonstrating kindness, honor and dignity"....Tony Dungy
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Back when I was guiding I could always tell the natural born killers by watching them in the presence of game. The NBK's would be looking for a "nest" as soon as they saw the game they wanted to kill. The others, they'd be gawking around, and looking at the animal while it was making plans to go elsewhere. The NBK's would generally have the critter on the ground b4 the others thought about getting into the game.
Fun stuff
Dober
I couldn't agree more.
It is irrelevant what you think. What matters is the TRUTH.
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Pops was telling me the other day about when he was guiding a bunch, he and the other guides would each ask the hunters what they were shooting. Dad said that he would always try and grab the guys with the beat up 270s and 308s, because they almost always knew how to shoot 'em and how to drop down and start putting lead on fur. One gal he guided took a bull at around 500yds with a 308.
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Now if we could get manufactures to offer twist appropriate for all the new bullets we would be in business. It still kills me to see brand new guns that need to be rebarreled to use the best bullet weights.
Just measured my Tikka with the cleaning rod method and Im looking right at 10" on the twist, hope the 165 matrix will stabilize.
Hunt hard, kill clean, waste nothing and offer no apologies.
"In rifle work, group size is of some interest...but it is well to remember that a rifleman does not shoot groups, he shoots shots." Jeff Cooper
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Right now its about 8ft and the surf looks nice but in a month I will be in Billings.
Hunt hard, kill clean, waste nothing and offer no apologies.
"In rifle work, group size is of some interest...but it is well to remember that a rifleman does not shoot groups, he shoots shots." Jeff Cooper
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You suck man! That's awesome. I'd say you'll be okay stabilizing up there.
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Matter of fact if Dober and BobinNH are reading I would be very interested to see what ya'lls times are for the above drill. I have timed a bunch of people on it, but am very interested in what different good animal killers can do, and from what I read I think you both probably fit that. Anyone else that wants to try it would be great also.
Formid I can try that.....I've been timed off hand for close ,fast shots while working the action,but not as you describe. I know Dober does it that way.When I get a friend at the range with me I will do it...and will time myself if necessary. I will be honest Just got in from a drive to look at some whitey's a ton load of pheasants and some geese. And, we stopped at the range. Now I cheated as I knew the range to the gong (434) but I had my wife time me 3x's (hope that sounds ok...grin). I used my Zebra gun (700 Mtn .260 with a 2-8 Leo and M1) along with 130 Bergers and 45/H4350. First go was 10 seconds, a bit rusty after a long winter and I'm sore as heck from laying sod for 3 hours the other night and moving a bit slow. Next two times were 6 seconds and 7 seconds(once again I hope that sounds ok...grin). Certainly along ways from what others can do but fast enough for the critters I'm a hunting. I should qualify it with an I also cheated as I started from my knees as my backs a bit tweakish and am moving real slow (sod work, ugh...). Thinking it'd be about a wash though if I wasn't beat up and moving slowly vs being good to go and hitting the turf from a standing. Nice thing about the 6.5 Panther vs my Mashburn is the rig bounces less off target and it's quicker to reaquire and drop the hammer. I'll do some more this summer and will report on it after the spring bruin season is over. Have bigger feesh to fry now. Dober
Last edited by Mark R Dobrenski; 05/18/12.
"True respect starts with the way you treat others, and it is earned over a lifetime of demonstrating kindness, honor and dignity"....Tony Dungy
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![[Linked Image]](http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u49/Mark_Dobrenski/springbruin2012012.jpg) Here's the rig, and thx to Ingwe for the paint job and to SU35 and Scenar for talking me into giving the .260 a go. Fun round to roll with. Dober
"True respect starts with the way you treat others, and it is earned over a lifetime of demonstrating kindness, honor and dignity"....Tony Dungy
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Poor wifey, 10 seconds and less! By my way of thinking, that's super fast to get 3 rounds on target at over 400 yards! Awesome stuff man! 6.5 Panther just your nickname for the 260?
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After dumping a few animals with it you will retire that big 7;)
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Matter of fact if Dober and BobinNH are reading I would be very interested to see what ya'lls times are for the above drill. I have timed a bunch of people on it, but am very interested in what different good animal killers can do, and from what I read I think you both probably fit that. Anyone else that wants to try it would be great also.
Formid I can try that.....I've been timed off hand for close ,fast shots while working the action,but not as you describe. I know Dober does it that way.When I get a friend at the range with me I will do it...and will time myself if necessary. I will be honest Just got in from a drive to look at some whitey's a ton load of pheasants and some geese. And, we stopped at the range. Now I cheated as I knew the range to the gong (434) but I had my wife time me 3x's (hope that sounds ok...grin). I used my Zebra gun (700 Mtn .260 with a 2-8 Leo and M1) along with 130 Bergers and 45/H4350. First go was 10 seconds, a bit rusty after a long winter and I'm sore as heck from laying sod for 3 hours the other night and moving a bit slow. Next two times were 6 seconds and 7 seconds(once again I hope that sounds ok...grin). Certainly along ways from what others can do but fast enough for the critters I'm a hunting. I should qualify it with an I also cheated as I started from my knees as my backs a bit tweakish and am moving real slow (sod work, ugh...). Thinking it'd be about a wash though if I wasn't beat up and moving slowly vs being good to go and hitting the turf from a standing. Nice thing about the 6.5 Panther vs my Mashburn is the rig bounces less off target and it's quicker to reaquire and drop the hammer. I'll do some more this summer and will report on it after the spring bruin season is over. Have bigger feesh to fry now. Dober Dober I tried Formidilosis' test and was about 10-11 from standing,out of the pack a single shot from 300(all I could get that day)...although the last shot with the Mashburn was gone in 7-8.Getting out of the pack and into the dirt took about half the time.How fast I was from there depended on getting lined out to the target. I could never do it in that time if I had to twist a turret; I doubt I'd be fast enough.
The 280 Remington is overbore.
The 7 Rem Mag is over bore.
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There's one place reticles shine. A participant on this thread has a good tale of where a reticle was almost too slow and a turret would have been too slow... but I'm sworn to secrecy. Maybe he will share it.
Bob I bet I could learn a ton from you about getting a shot off fast at mid-ranges. I really need to put some work into that. Maybe it's time for a walk with the .223 again.
I got run off my 450-500 yard spot for a while- they are going to be doing dome work in those cuts, the guy said- which sucks, but it'll kick me out of my comfort zone and get me working on those shorter shots FAST and also I can get back to my longer-range plates. I've been working on trying to get my group size at 450 where I want it (really battling a flinch post-concussion, dammit) but the reality is, as you've said many times, there's huge hunting utility in a 250-350 yard shot that's FAST and "good enough".
The CENTER will hold.
Reality, Patriotism,Trump: you can only pick two
FÜCK PUTIN!
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You're right Bob having to twist would challenge being sub 10 on a consistent basis for me as well. This is one place where dotz absolutely would rule if trying to shave 2 or 3 seconds.
But, I'm spending some time twisting and it's been kind of fun.
Maybe a better way to play this game would be to range, hit the turf and then shoot one round. In no particular order...
Tanner, nope the Panther isn't my nickname you young pup...grin. Think writer for OL since about 1979 or so. Course you weren't even around then.
BigGameRS- not sure I'd go that far but it's gonna be a fun year with it anyway. If we work at it I spect 20 or so will hit the dust via the Zebra this year. I spect if we do our job it'll do it's just fine.
By the way, where did Formid go?
Woke up thinking about a similar test to play with using my 77/22 and maybe 50 yds? What are your boyz thoughts?
Dober
"True respect starts with the way you treat others, and it is earned over a lifetime of demonstrating kindness, honor and dignity"....Tony Dungy
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Jeff/Dober: We're hijacking Tanner's thread but don't think he will mind... I sent Formid the pictures of my targets, described how I di it,and he told me anything under 15 seconds is "very good",and his best shooters do 8-10 dialing at 350-400 yards.Being completely unfamiliar with turret twisting I could never pull it off in that time frame. Formid may see this and come on to comment but IIRC he said everyone seems to think they are faster than they are;but when they get timed he has seen some run up to 2 minutes to range,dial and shoot. The timing thing was new to me but not the method because that is how I always shoot at 300-400....no rear support and rifle cradled over something in my left hand.Going fast to the count was the new thing...the clock exerted constructive tension. I found the exercise useful and fun,a good break from the leisurely approach and very telling.And more in line with what I have bumped into in a lot of mule deer country,especially chasing the fully grown ones,which seem never to be far from cover,and seem to have a bigger "danger detection zone" than immature deer. Dober back here(like in Minnesotta)whether it is grouse or deer,there is a bit of a premium in fast off hand shooting(if one hunts from the ground)because game is encountered unexpectedly with little warning,and swallowed up quickly in cover....so yeah we practice it some, more so in years past... I set little animal sillouettes on paper targets at 50 yards and practice shooting them off hand with a 22 Rimfire.Only chest cavity hits "count",and this is not as easy as it sounds. 100-200 rounds of this kind of thing will leave you surprisingly worn out from concentrating.It is a bit sobering when you start,because for me it shows how much I suck  But as you keep going you can see the improvement in speed and accuracy.Weekly sessions like this and a deer at 100-even 150 yards, off hand,can become a sure thing. Jeff IMHO ALL trigger time is good,but shooting the intermediate distances from less than rock solid positions in reasonable time,and becoming reasonably good at it requires round count too.....challenge yourself a bit and rather than run to your comfort zone positions,set up a plain 10" bull at 200 yards,and shoot it off hand....then from the sit unaided except for knee support.After a seesion or two doing things like that,you will conclude quickly that shooting with a fully supported rifle is only part of a practice regimen.A 223 is your friend for this stuff....and for the longer stuff, too. People avoid doing this stuff because the results are not nice,"pretty" groups.
Last edited by BobinNH; 05/19/12.
The 280 Remington is overbore.
The 7 Rem Mag is over bore.
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This thread is good now, I'm just reading and learning Sunday A.M. I am going to go do some practice like this!
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Jealous, Tanner. I'm on my honeymoon, and would just as soon be going shooting with you.
This is a shooting forum, there is no place here for logic.
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Congrats pal! Hope you're having a blast somewhere warm and sandy! Shooting is going to have to wait til tomorrow for sure, working the damn 10:00-6:00 today.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Jealous, Tanner. I'm on my honeymoon, and would just as soon be going shooting with you. KDK: Congrats!
The 280 Remington is overbore.
The 7 Rem Mag is over bore.
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Thanks, guys. Warm? Yes. Sandy? Not so much. Lake Tahoe is awful nice, though.
This is a shooting forum, there is no place here for logic.
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"I can't be canceled, because, I don't give a fuuck!"
--- Kid Rock 2022
Holocaust Deniers, the ultimate perverted dipchits: Bristoe, TheRealHawkeye, stophel, Ghostinthemachine, anyone else?
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Thanks, OT! I have next week off also, and plan to hit TriCounty at least three times.... Maybe I'll run into you there.
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KDK,22 yrs back my new wife & I honeymooned in Tahoe also,and in May .We even fished for lake trout & cought a few,wife got the biggest.congrats man.
Doder you might find a nice Guchi back pack to match that stock.LOL just funnin ya,I like it!!
RS
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Sounds good - living the goodlife working days all week and about time to PMCOTC! If things work out, you can shoot my 270!
"I can't be canceled, because, I don't give a fuuck!"
--- Kid Rock 2022
Holocaust Deniers, the ultimate perverted dipchits: Bristoe, TheRealHawkeye, stophel, Ghostinthemachine, anyone else?
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Dober,
I would think those times are good. I will test it from the knees and see... We run it like Bob said- standing up, wearing pack, rifle shouldered or in one hand, scope set to lowest power- time starts and you race to get into position and shoot. As I told Bob in a PM, we ask our students one the first morning of class how long they think it will take them to spot and animal, range, setup and hit at 350-450 yards. Almost all say somewhere between 10 and 20 seconds. Some even swear they can do it in under ten. We tend to use a range under 400 yards because it is where most hunters think they are capable. I've heard the "sometimes those ______ trophy bucks/bulls only give you 5 seconds to get on them and shoot" hundreds of times by some really successful hunters yet we have never had a single person break 20 seconds with a hit on the first try. Only a few under 40 seconds. When that timer comes out people suddenly aren't as good as they thought they were.... grin
Our standard for passing after two days is 30 seconds. Really solid shooters will go 15 or so. The best will consistently do it in 8-10 seconds (by best I mean national level 3- Gun competitors with a background in LR shooting)...
Some factors that will help with speed-
* Fixed power scopes
* FFP reticles
Some factors that hurt speed-
*Variable power scopes
* SFP reticles
So the fastest scope types for medium distance shooting should theoretically be a fixed power with such magnification as to allow close in shooting and distance work (Leupold 6x anyone..?) with a calibrated BDC or mil dot reticle or a scope having a FFP BDC or mil dot reticle and with the power set between 4 and 6x while hunting. I say theoretically because as I've stated before we've seen with dotz that it takes a second or two for people to be visually comfortable lining up the reticle and target when not at flat numbered ranges. IE targets at 300, 400, 500, etc. yards are very easy with BDC reticles, but the guessing of where to hold at between ranges (say 470 yards, etc), and especially with wind thrown in, means that people take time making sure the hold is correct. I actually find that across the board I am faster getting hits dialing (elevation) rather then holding.
I will try to get some video of a couple of us running the drill in the next week or so....
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Yeah that'd be cool, get some video up if you get the chance. Are you talking one shot or getting 3 shots off? I thought you'd originally meant getting 3 rounds off? It'd be a good drill to do both. Now that I'm over my stiffness from my sod laying party I'll get back out to the range and run it again. Though I don't shoot off a pack much anymo, as I normally shoot off a "cheater" (bipod) when I go long. As well, when I'm in open country where I may be shooting long I never carry my scope set on the lowest power. In the "dark timber" you bet, but out in the open I generally carry it where it's gonna be when I go to shooting. One of the things I've noticed about people thru hunting with them and from my guiding days (Montana, Wyo and Sonora) is that some people are what I call "natural born killers" and some are not. The "NBK's" were the kind of people that as soon as game was spotted they were into the mode of find a place for a rest, and get off a shot. These people had practiced hitting the turf enough that they knew which piece of ground would give them a good rest (right angle to shoot from) and which wouldn't. When they hit the turf they were on the trigger. The ones that didn't have that instinct would be gawking at the critter, asking the guide what it's G2's would go or what the spread was (this one more so, even though width's only 15% of the total)and when they hit the ground they'd squirm around trying to find the right position. These people would look for one fast knock out and generally were very good at it. If they had gear to work with they knew how to deal with it immediately. No fumbling around with a pack, often times I'll shoot with the pack right on and practice doing so as it's gonna take me a short bit to get the pack off. And honestly many times that nano second or two is a make or break. If they're clicking the good ones do it as second nature. If they're running "dotz" or such they've practiced enough that there is no thought. Simply range and kill, and that's one of the things that I like the best about dotz. As long as one's practiced enough to be taking shots at long range then all of this should be 2nd nature. No dicking around, just dropping the hammer and doing so very quickly. 400's a good range to work with as it begins to challenge the shooter and the round a bit. I've long said that all shooters and rounds are equal to 300. (obviously there's some diffs here though). Clocks, timers, chronographs, LRF's and such are all good as they do tend to keep people honest. One of my best friends likes to say that until he got a LRF he didn't know how many of his kill shots were actually 300 yds vs 450...grin Heckola, we even carry a clicker (counter) for when we shoot gophers/prairie dogs/chucks etc as it's really easy for 50 pd morns to be 100 without a clicker.... We'll have to agree to disagree about which is faster the dotz or the clicking. As long as I've got enough dots to make do I'll have to say that it's been my experience that ranging then grabbing a dot has been faster for me than ranging, clicking and then dropping the hammer. Obviously there's one less movement with the dotz. So, it's gonna be faster as long as the one doing the shooting has shot enough to be able to instictively read between the dotz and not have to think about it. Or at least that's been my experience. And of course a lot of this depends on target size. If we're talking small targets then as ones shooting inbetween the dotz (like 370 yds) then one will be a bit more accurate with the clicking. But, if the target is sizeable IE small big game like deer/lopes or big game like elk/moose then one can get kills easily without having to be quite so precise. Lastly, I'll say that a good man who's intimate with his rig will do well even if he's doing the old 3" high and holding over. I killed a ton load of chucks to 600 yds with such a system and did it with ease once I understood the holds. And one can do this very quickly,so to 400 yds I sure wouldn't dismiss what a good person using hold over can do. Lots of ways to skin this wabbit, and the good thing is that it's all fun. Hope to see the vid. Shoot straight! Dober
"True respect starts with the way you treat others, and it is earned over a lifetime of demonstrating kindness, honor and dignity"....Tony Dungy
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One other thing I'd add, is that I feel that there are very good tactical guys who aren't the best game shots and that not all good game shots are also good at the tac game. Same goes for the benchers...
Dober
"True respect starts with the way you treat others, and it is earned over a lifetime of demonstrating kindness, honor and dignity"....Tony Dungy
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Form, I'd love to see some clips too of how you guys get it done. I am going to try and take some video next time I'm out and post it up. Should be fun and a little critique never hurt anyone!
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I'm a bit late coming into this one, but great thread. I just started shooting a 270 Wizzum, after a couple years with a plain ole' 270 like Jack shot.
I did shoot a fair pile of the 135 smk's out of that rifle, and most of those between 500 and 750 yds. They shot great, but when the wind started getting stiff and gusty they got blown around at the longer ranges. I'm fireforming Norma cases currently, and the rifle is shooting 1/2 to 3/4" with a starting charge of 58 gr H4350 and 135 smk's seated snug into the lands. The magazine of the Stiller action seems long enough I believe I could get even the 165 Matrix to kiss lands and still feed. But, first things first.
I'm using a S&B with Hollands ART reticle on my LR 7 mag, and a NF 2.5-10 with the R2 reticle on the Wizzum. I like to dial in corrections for varmints, but the MOA type reticles I'm using are pretty handy for a quick range and shoot. I am also using the G7 LRF and have it set to give corrections in MOA. It's making for a pretty fast system.
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This thread is an interesting read!I would like to see the vids myself and watch how some of these faster shooters can dial and hit that quickly.I can imagine these guys are on auto pilot after a lot of practice which is what it's really all about. I am guilty of quoting the 5 second thing when it comes to time constraints on some animals, mostly because it has happened to me,but have to qualify it because it has occured mostly under closer circumstances,when I either moved an animal out,or they appeared very suddenly.Mostly this is in mixed cover,or where terrain allowed an undetected approach to pretty close range.It is also attributable to the habits of bucks old enough to be called "trophy class". Mostly the shooting involved off hand,but a couple where a guy had better drop to the sit,and touch off because there was no time for any more than that,ground cover being too high for prone,and lots of screening cover or terrain. Under these circumstances I would say that another drill worth looking at is dropping to the sit,unaided by anything other than your rifle,and hitting that 10-12" circle against a clock....forget the pack and everything else.200 yards or so seems a reasonable distance. I can think of three large mule deer at 80 yards and under, one at about 30 feet,and of which I killed one.But could have killed the other two except I made the rookie mistake both times of worrying too much about the fine points of their head gear, even though I knew right away they were "big"....each was out of sight in a bound or two,and there was no second chance.And for sure this was happening in that 5 second time frame.More like eastern grouse shooting than western BG hunting as we usually picture it. I can still see the crosshairs on those big bodies,and on both those hunts that was my "chance" on the kind of mule deer I came for despite 10-14 days of hunting,and I came home empty both times..... but I guess we are just not meant to kill them all.
Last edited by BobinNH; 05/23/12.
The 280 Remington is overbore.
The 7 Rem Mag is over bore.
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Some factors that will help with speed-
* Fixed power scopes
* FFP reticles
Some factors that hurt speed-
*Variable power scopes
* SFP reticles
This is interesting and food for thought....especially among theoreticians who think fixed power scopes are for golf......Mmmm.
The 280 Remington is overbore.
The 7 Rem Mag is over bore.
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Brad that Whizzum would scream with the Matrixes!
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Bob, another drill we used to do quite a bit was to shoot at 6" paper plates @ 100 yds and run 3 rounds and see how many hits we could make and in what kind of time.
Dober
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Dober we have done pretty much the same thing,at 50 and 100.Three down with a bolt gun and cut loose with the clock running....it's also lots of fun with a pump 30/06.
The 280 Remington is overbore.
The 7 Rem Mag is over bore.
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Dober we have done pretty much the same thing,at 50 and 100.Three down with a bolt gun and cut loose with the clock running.... it's also lots of fun with a pump 30/06. Isn't using a pump cheating? At least it was an '06, rather than that nasty old .270...
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Dober we have done pretty much the same thing,at 50 and 100.Three down with a bolt gun and cut loose with the clock running.... it's also lots of fun with a pump 30/06. Isn't using a pump cheating? KDK that is the exact point!
The 280 Remington is overbore.
The 7 Rem Mag is over bore.
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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Back when I was guiding for bruins I did a short bit of work trying to see what I could run faster. A BAR, a 760 or a good bolt gun. I could run the 760 the fastest and the bolt wasn't far off. Most all work was done at close range. I'd thought about a 870 but didn't like the fact that it ran out of range if I needed to go a bit long.
(I'd had 2 different bruins get after me so it got me thinking about carrying while guiding is what started this)
Dober
Last edited by Mark R Dobrenski; 05/23/12.
"True respect starts with the way you treat others, and it is earned over a lifetime of demonstrating kindness, honor and dignity"....Tony Dungy
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Good stuff on the drills, emphazising first shot hits but also a correct follow through and the ability to place another hit in short order. To many times I see guys "admire" their shot and have seen multiple pigs get up and disappear when then did a bang-flop on the first shot (almost all high shoulders that missed spine) and guys were busy dishing out a high 5 and telling everyone how great a shot it was.
If I am culling I will put one solid shot into the chest of each piece of bacon and move to the next target. If I am filling a tag as soon as touch off a shot my follow through is not complete until I have another round in the chamber and back on target for a second shot if necessary.
A common LE sniper training shot was a single head shot at whatever range, usually 100yards or closer, followed by a second body shot on a seperate target to simulate taking down two hostiles. Par time was 3 seconds with the first round touching a 1" circle and the second round on an 8" disk. Shooting a braked .308 from a bipod a solid time for me was about 2 seconds but we had a guy who would commonly break about 1.5 and his bolt was simply flying. The key to a rapid follow up shot is to not dick around, when the crosshairs are on the target the trigger is pressed without hesitation, the goal was not to hit the exact center of the 8" disk, just to hit it anywhere. To many guys were going way over time to make a pretty center hit on the disk.
Gunsite was one of the first to articulate the training goal of getting an acceptable hit as fast as possible rather than taking more time to make a perfect hit.
Hunt hard, kill clean, waste nothing and offer no apologies.
"In rifle work, group size is of some interest...but it is well to remember that a rifleman does not shoot groups, he shoots shots." Jeff Cooper
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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........ The key to a rapid follow up shot is to not dick around, when the crosshairs are on the target the trigger is pressed without hesitation, the goal was not to hit the exact center of the 8" disk, just to hit it anywhere. To many guys were going way over time to make a pretty center hit on the disk.
Gunsite was one of the first to articulate the training goal of getting an acceptable hit as fast as possible rather than taking more time to make a perfect hit. Exactly! Well said.
The 280 Remington is overbore.
The 7 Rem Mag is over bore.
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Joined: Apr 2001
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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........ The key to a rapid follow up shot is to not dick around, when the crosshairs are on the target the trigger is pressed without hesitation, the goal was not to hit the exact center of the 8" disk, just to hit it anywhere. To many guys were going way over time to make a pretty center hit on the disk.
Gunsite was one of the first to articulate the training goal of getting an acceptable hit as fast as possible rather than taking more time to make a perfect hit. Exactly! Well said. I'm thinking that the boys from Wisconsin and northern Minne perfected it on whitey's quite a while b4 the Gunsite boys did......... Dober
"True respect starts with the way you treat others, and it is earned over a lifetime of demonstrating kindness, honor and dignity"....Tony Dungy
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Yep, I am always impressed the way you old guys made the transition for the second shot when you were shooting flintlocks. I love a good thread like this, no endless gack (by the way thanks for that Dober, use it for everything now) just real info on how to make better field marksman.
Hunt hard, kill clean, waste nothing and offer no apologies.
"In rifle work, group size is of some interest...but it is well to remember that a rifleman does not shoot groups, he shoots shots." Jeff Cooper
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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I'm thinking that the boys from Wisconsin and northern Minne perfected it on whitey's quite a while b4 the Gunsite boys did......... Dober Neccesity. Varmints the trasition was tough!
The 280 Remington is overbore.
The 7 Rem Mag is over bore.
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Joined: Aug 2012
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Hi
I see this post is dated a bit and haven't followed it all the way to it's end as it looks to be a very long thread but wanted to post some info related to the .277 165gn Matrix VLD.
I have worked up a good load for the 270 Winchester. The rifle used is a standard over the counter Ruger with 22", 10 twist barrel. I have been able to work up a very consistintly accurate load for that rifle having a plus 2850 FPS muzzle velocity. I'm sure the load is a little hot but am not having sticky bolt or other obvious pressure issues. I'm using Winchester Supreme 780 powder, Norma brass partially neck sized with a Forster bump neck bushing die, and GM215M primers. I've checked the velocity with 2 different Chrony's. I have the bullet set at .095 from the lands as I've tried it into the lands to way out there and this is what this rifle seems to like best.
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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RinB sent me some 165 Matrix slugs to give a go in my 9 twist Brux in a .270. I burned R22 and the one group I shot was very nice and had good speed (2850).
W-W brass and 210 M's if I recall right.
Dober
"True respect starts with the way you treat others, and it is earned over a lifetime of demonstrating kindness, honor and dignity"....Tony Dungy
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Campfire Outfitter
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Awesome, I wonder how they'll shoot out of my 270 Bee?
Regards,
Chuck
"There's a saying in prize fighting, everyone's got a plan until they get hit"
Ghost And The Darkness
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Im still aching to play with those matrix. I ordered some a few weeks ago but they were shipped to the old address that was still on the credit card!!!
What length tube Mark? I was figuring anything over 2700 would be nice but 2850 is great.
Hunt hard, kill clean, waste nothing and offer no apologies.
"In rifle work, group size is of some interest...but it is well to remember that a rifleman does not shoot groups, he shoots shots." Jeff Cooper
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Campfire Ranger
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23", and I ran 55.5 of R22 in W-W cases along with a 210M
I was thinking more along the lines of 2750 as well. Need to clock it another day to double check it.
Next time I come your way, if we can we should meet up for lunch.
Dober
"True respect starts with the way you treat others, and it is earned over a lifetime of demonstrating kindness, honor and dignity"....Tony Dungy
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Absolutely, my days off are all over the place but give me a buzz and we can figure something out.
Hunt hard, kill clean, waste nothing and offer no apologies.
"In rifle work, group size is of some interest...but it is well to remember that a rifleman does not shoot groups, he shoots shots." Jeff Cooper
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Campfire Greenhorn
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Campfire Greenhorn
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Started playing with the 165 and 145's. Preliminary results with imr-4831 are ok but im limited by the magazine on my sako and im not getting too close the the lands. (as they like to be according to the guy who makes them). These Will be hunting moose in October. Mark, what was the accuracy with the R22 load ?
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Anyone have a better working BC? I know Tanner mentioned .650 but I saw another reference it was closer to the .730 listed on the website. I am still bullet less but plan on making time for at least an 800 yards poke as soon as they are here.
Hunt hard, kill clean, waste nothing and offer no apologies.
"In rifle work, group size is of some interest...but it is well to remember that a rifleman does not shoot groups, he shoots shots." Jeff Cooper
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V Inc, I picked up the .650 BC from a few guys at LRH.com that have shot it past 1k.
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+2 on the .65 BC from the same source. This is still a great BC. I've been shooting 180 gr Berger VLD's in my 7 mag with this same BC and they are very good in the wind.
I'm currently shooting the 140 gr Berger VLD's in my 270 WSM with good success. Shot a marmot on Wednesday at 592 with one.
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That rig sounds like its kicking mucho butt Brad!
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Yeah anything close to .600 is pretty dang cool. I know for the first couple rounds of shooting the .243 with a .585 at 3000fps I was shocked at how much wind it cut off of a .308. I was playing with numbers yesterday and after using the 110TTSX for lead free zones getting a .650 BC is like using a whole new round. At only 600yards it was about 50% less drift.
Hunt hard, kill clean, waste nothing and offer no apologies.
"In rifle work, group size is of some interest...but it is well to remember that a rifleman does not shoot groups, he shoots shots." Jeff Cooper
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