Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunting Rifles Sako 85 ejection failure

Because the Sako extractor is located higher and is smaller, i can imagine that no Sako 85 is likely to catch the rim before the cartridge falls into the chamber in the scenario Gramps describes. I would point out though that the objective of the game is to get to cartridge to go into the chamber! The reason for the full-length extractor on the mauser design was to provide the tension required to hold the cartridge, and that is going to be harder to do with a Sako-type extractor. But the Sako design clearly generally does a pretty good job.

The Sako is not going to catch the rim as fast as the much wider mauser-style extractor - in the Sako the round will have to move higher across the bolt face before meeting the extractor. I have described before as "CRF enough". It is a compromise, due to Sako retaining the three lug design of the 75.

The question is, are there benefits with retaining the three lug design and are they sufficient to justify the compromise. For me, that is a very easy question to answer. Of course it is. The three lug design negates the "mauser wobble" and results in a much smoother action than any mauser, and has much less tendency to bind than any mauser design. It also reduces bolt lift. The compromise is a winner for me.

Well said dhg. I'll drink to that.

No issues with my .300 Win. mag. Grey Wolf, shown here with a Leupold 3x9 Ultralight scope in Leupold Sako medium height stainless mounts -

Personally I don't see the big advantage if any to a CRF action, My Remingtons, Brownings and push feed Winchesters run perfectly smooth with zero issues, I think some guy's are just in love with the idea of controlled round feed because the press over the years has made it some kind of holy grail, Oh the great "Pre 64" Model 70, hell in case no one noticed it's 2012 the age of the computer, the tolerances of those old model 70's of almost 50 years ago can't come close to any of our modern rifles built with CNC controlled machines,I don't want a tote 50 year old rifle any more than I want to drive a 50 year old car. I guess it's like furniture some people like to collect antiques, it goes back to the old but true saying " whatever floats your boat" Those old rifles might be most desirable to the next guy but they just don't do it for me...............Hb

Yep, i agree. I do like the idea of CRF if you are using a staggered feed, as i think it reduces feed issues by placing the round in the chamber more precisely than a push feed can. It should be pointed out that this is the real reason why Paul Mauser developed his system of CRF - it wasn't anything to do with preventing double feeding or cartridge control whilst lying upside down or what have you. It was to reliably feed cartridges of variable quality control and dimensions into the chamber reliably from a staggered magazine. The Sako system performs this function quite as well as the mauser system does.

Otherwise any advantages of CRF are really largely imaginary and vanish into insignificance in comparison to the much greater advantages afforded by the reduced bolt lift and smoothness of the Sako system. I have had the opportunity to use some really nice mauser-type actions over the years, and none is nearly as smooth as the Sako action and all have some degree of bolt wobble at full extent. It is inherent in the mauser design.

The advantages of the Sako systyem vastly outway the disadvantages. However, the system does require the cartridge rim to be firmly secured by the extractor on ejection. The short Sako extractor is difficult to tension to achieve this objective and the reason Paul Mauser developed the full length extractor was to provide a method to reliably tension the extractor given the manufacturing limitations of his day. However, i do think it should be possible to achieve sufficient tension with the short Sako extractor, and clearly the majority of Sako 85 actions do achieve this objective. It will be interesting to see how they go with time. But clearly, the 85s in which the extractor doesn't get sufficient purchase to provide reliable ejection are faulty and should have been repaired by Beretta.

It is interesting to note that Sako was not alone in contemplating trying to develop a form of controlled round feed in a three lug action. Thomspon Center considered a similar design for the Icon action, but gave up because they knew folks would have a fit if you tried to call it CRF. In fact, i think they were probably influenced by some of the commentary on the Sako.

I did some testing on 5 Sako 85's in 260, 6.5x55, 308, 300 WSM, and 375 H&H. All with scopes mounted on low rings -- either Talley, Sako Optilock, or S&K. The only time had an ejection failure was if the bolt was moved very slowly -- unrealistically slow for any hunting situation unless your are deliberately trying to keep you brass from ejecting . In some configurations, I believe the brass does hit the bottom of the scope. The trajectory is such that it doesn't seem to have an affect on successful ejection, however. I tried the test with the guns in multiple orientations-- barrel pointed up at 60 deg, down at 45 deg, and the gun canted 45 degrees to each side.

The 270 Win 85 I had would eject into the scope no matter how hard you cycled the bolt. Slow would hit and fast would slam it into my scope.....My 270wsm would only hiccup when cycled slowly bench shooting.

Sako and Optilock "low" rings are not really low if compared to most popular scope rings. Between having to have your scope mounted up in the stratosphere, because of ejection problems and Sako Blow-ups. I decided to buy a Winchester Featherweight, instead of the Sako Finnlite that I was contemplating. Now I am damn glad that I made the decision that I did.

rj308,

I wish I had done likewise. I have not even fired my 85 .270 Finnlight and I am having ejection problems with live factory loads and full length sized, trimmed cases. I have sent several e-mails to Beretta, and the only response so far has been to move scope fore and aft. I am using Sako Optilock bases and low rings as noted in previous posts. I finally pushed the Leupold VX3 3.5x10x40 as far forward as possible and that helped with the ejected round hiting the scope. I know my rifle has extractor and ejector problems, as an extracted round hits the left side of the loading port and leaves a nasty gash on the round where it begins to bottle neck down. The faster I work the bolt the deeper the gash. It also leaves an extracted round lying on the magazine follower (usually the last round, but not always) After over 50 years of using all types of weapons, both in the military and civilian life I have determined that my rifle and possibly all 85 Sako's need the following: A MUCH STRONGER EXTRACTOR SPRING THAT WILL HOLD AN EXTRACTED ROUND STRAIGHT AND TIGHT AGAINST BOLT FACE. SECOND, AN EJECTOR THAT HITS EXTRACTED ROUNDS FURTHER LEFT OF CENTER insuring a positive flip to the right. As other campers have stated, the real problem may be Beretta ownership. They do not seem to be concerned with customer satisfaction and quite possibly with quality control.

G2

The sad reality is that i am one of Sako's greatest advocates here, and i have written quite a lot here in support of the 85 design. Even with respect to the pictures on the other thread of the Sako 85 blow up, i would still argue that that rifle clearly behaved in the way that was intended, and the system of gas handling clearly worked.

But i also will make it clear again, i do not own a Sako rifle and i will not own a Sako rifle at this point of time despite having previously been a very proud Sako owner. The reality is Gramps, you have a faulty rifle which should be repaired or replaced. But it won't be. Not unless you take them to court, which is clearly ridiculous to get a rifle replaced. Which of course Beretta knows and i would go so far as to say is part of their calculations. Sako makes faulty products just like everyone else, and as i have already argued, i think the 85 design is always going to be prone to producing rifles that don't work because of the difficulties in tensioning that short extractor. The real problem is that Beretta isn't ever going to fix or replace your faulty rifle. And this is no different to Beretta's behaviour anywhere else in the world with respect to Sako products. It is clearly just part of the company's culture, even policies. If you wish to buy a Sako product, take this into consideration before you hand over your money. Personally, i'd be looking elsewhere instead.

If you need a nice, classy Scandinavian made rifle might i suggest Schultz and Larsen instead. Maybe even a Lynx.

I agree with you that Sako makes faulty products just like everyone else but many guy's think just because they've had several and their particular rifles have lived up to expectations that Sako rifles are bullet proof and every one that leaves the factory is the best rifle ever, I can say this all Sako rifles don't live up to the 5 shot MOA guarantee as I have had a few that would not, that being said I am still a big Sako fan and I think it's a shame that a shabby outfit like Beretta owns such a fine rifle maker...............Hb

Gramps I have the same rifle,caliber,scope and mount set up. Mine does not have the problems yours does. I would call Beretta and not stop cussing until someone would fix it or replace it. I have also heard if you send a email to Sako direct that they will make sure it's gets taken care of.

Good luck.

Dink

Thanks DINK I am game for any thing at this point. It's so frustrating, as I know Sako has always been known for making very good rifles. I have three older Sako's that are great but heavy. I was just hopeing that the 85 Finnlight would do me the rest of my days.

Thanks for your help guys,

G2

Did you register your 85 with Beretta and create a customer support account?

I followed the instructions that came with the manual, registered my Sakos, and then created a Beretta Customer Support Account. They've always been extremely responsive in my experience and were always quick to have a technician respond to handle any issue I've had. If your matter cannot be resolved and it appears the extractor and/or ejector is indeed out of wack, let the take it back for repair.

On this forum, I've noticed a few individual Sako owners who have complained incessantly about getting no help from Beretta to address certain issues. But all along, the very same issues they were complaining about were already long ago addressed and documented by Beretta for any registered customer support user to easily find. I came to the opinion that some of those who were complaining never took the few minutes time to take full advantage of Beretta Support, but instead spent hours incessantly complaining on multiple forums.

As for scope mounting height. I have a current size-M model 85 to use for example. Using Optilock ringmounts sized low, the optical center of my scope tube is mounted a measured 1.64" above the bore centerline over the chamber. Using a Sako height comb, my line of sight falls near directly at this height when using a sighting tube in lieu of scope to measure for correct mounting height. Now compare this to my guild smith built model 70 which is fit to me. It has custom QD mounts sized low, the optical center of my scope tube is a measured 1.55" above the bore centerline over the chamber. The stock is fit so my line of sight also falls near directly at this height. The difference in height between the Sako and the Winchester is a measured .09"!! There is not a huge difference. The Sako is not somehow skyscraper high with the Winchester being ultra low.

As I've posted before, it is my opinion based on my experience that the ergonomics of the 85 is not a good fit for anyone who prefers to stock crawl, prefers to use a low comb stock, or prefers to use lower than Sako spec aftermarket mount in combination with any scope having bulky turrets. As for the Sako extractor, the case head will fail and lose a big chunk of brass if the cartridge is stuck solid in the chamber. This is because the Sako extractor has a long history of having a strong and solid bite on a chambered cartridge. The Sako extractor does not have a rep for being puny.

If you have a new rifle and either the extractor and/or ejector is out of spec, I see no reason why your rifle cannot be corrected by Beretta/Sako. If you have a used rifle that is out of warranty, I'd not expect Sako to fix the rifle on their dime, but I see no reason why it cannot be corrected by any competent smith. There are too many Sako 85s around the world that are working like a champ to believe that your rifle is the norm. If it is a lemon, well then it is a lemon and should go back.

I do hope you get the issue resolved. And Please, don't take anything I posted as being an attack.

Best of Luck

Reading this thread gave me a knot in the pit of my stomach as I recently bought a used M85 grey wolf in 06. I have coveted this rifle for a long time and am realling looking forweard to getting the rig. So with some trepidation, I just finished cycling live rounds (have no expended brass) and am relieved to report that I had no issues what so ever. The shells ejected text-book - cleanly out the port, not high or low. I have a VXIII 3.5-10x40 with opti-locks that I believe are low (though I didn't mount the glass).

So I know another +M85 data point doesn't help you G2...but I have to agree with a few others above -- there is something acutely wrong with your rifle that can & should be fixed.

As an aside, can someone explain what 'stock crawl' is? I have never heard of this before. thnx

In the context of mounting the rifle by bringing the stock up to your cheek vs mounting the rifle into your shoulder and then bringing your cheek down to the stock by craning your neck forward and tilting your head down. With the former, you bring the scope up to your established natural line of sight. With the later, you lower your head and line of sight to the rifle, and by crawling the stock, you further lower your line of sight in relation to the scope being your head is angled down. Watch someone skilled at mounting an upland shotgun to see how they bring the gun smoothly up to their cheek and line of sight to easily swing on a moving target without any jerky wasted motion. I like the ergonomics of the Sako because it fits me well and mounts like a good upland gun. It's a natural for quick pointing on driven/moving game, which I suspect is a reason behind the ergonomics.

Flip side, if I were a card carrying member of the stock crawlers guild, I'd probably not be satisfied with the rifle ergonomics and would then look elsewhere for a better fit.

Best

Shipped my 85 Sako Finnlight to Beretta USA in Md. this morning. Yesterday I was actually able to talk to a former jarhead like myself, which made me feel somewhat more optimistic.

I still shake my head and wonder what the designer of this rifle was thinking when he put the ejector at 6:00, on a rifle that has no sights, AND WAS MADE FOR SCOPE USE ONLY.

A good day to all,

G2

Setch,

I have a suggestion to make before you mount your scope. I have the same scope, base and rings as you. Put some tape or something to cover the bottom of your scope and windage turret. It may keep your scope from getting beaten up during ejection. You may also want to read Mounting Scope in your Sako Manual before mounting.

G2

Gramps 2 I had this issue with a L691 Sako in 375 H&H and several gunsmiths tried to fix it but couldn't. In my case I got a good suggestion from here to turn scope 90 degrees. I know a bit of a pain as horizontal becomes vertical etc. Often the case mouth hits just the turret rather than the tube. Since then, I often wonder why they do not put the turrets at 9 & 12 o'clock instead. Will never happen because of conservatism but it would make sense.

BTW I have a 85 in 9.3 x 66 in low optilock QD's with a VX -1 2-7 and now with a 4 x 32 Conquest. Fortunately no problems.

regards
JohnT

Gramps
Important to remember it's not all rifles. Get yours sorted and enjoy the rifle they way you intended. I was down in the dumps with my 270 but my newest 7mmRM is the smoothest functioning rifle I own.