Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunting Rifles GAP .308 VS. GAP .260....Shootout!

I'll bet I've received 30 PM's in the past year about these two rifles. This question comes up a lot, "As your go to rifle, which would you grab, the .308 or the .260?" I thought it was time to do a real world head to head comparison. I have quite a bit of field time with the .308, with numerous big game kills and 800+ coyote kills. Last fall, all of my big game hunting was done with this lightweight GA Precision built .260. I also have a heavier .260 that I've used to take 231 coyotes with.

The two are almost identical, other than the .308 is based off a Remington short action and the .260 is a Templar(Defiance)short action. Both have Rock #3 barrels at 24". The .260 is a 1-9", the .308 is 1-11". Both are 5R. Both are stocked with Mcmillan Hunters EDGE stocks. Both rifles utilize Badger M5 bottom metal and use detactable AI mags. Both rifles sport Jewell triggers. I'm running S&B 10X42 PMII's, mil/mil, mounted in Talley LW low 30mm rings, attached with 8X40 fasteners(Remington receiver was modified for this upgrade). There is a slight difference in weight as the Templar action has a bit more steel in it(thicker in the rear section of the receiver), and the .308 barrel has a bit less steel per larger bore diameter. The .308 weighs 6 ounces less than the .260. The Templar bolt is one piece contruction and is lightly spiral fluted, The Remington handle is soldered on. The Templar extractor is an M16 style. Both rifles have "tactical" bolt handles.

The loads have been worked up and tested for both rifles and are as follows:

.308(green rifle)
155gr Lapua scenar
Lapua brass
45.5grs Varget
Wolf(Tula)LRM primer
2.810" coal
2950fps.

.260(black rifle)
130gr Berger Hunting VLD
Lapua brass
44.2grs H4350
Wolf(Tula)LRM primer
2.810" coal
3000fps.

Both rifles have proven to be sub .5" at 100 meters with the above loads.



In the next few weeks I'll be putting these rifles up against each other in the field under many different conditions. It won't be a ballistics calculator comparison....we're all guilty of too much "paper ballistics" at times, myself included. This will be more of a practical difference comparison for hunting big game animals. All of the shooting will be from field positions without the use of a bench.

I had a 6.5MM GAP once. O' sorry that was a 6.5 JAP!

Oh boy I am looking forward to watching this test.

Be interesting to see how it all pans out. Is the Wolf a fairly hot primer Pat? Seems to me that you're getting a lot of speed with those charges and 24" tubes? Or are the chambers cut fairly tight?

Thx
Dober

(did you or are you gonna make it this way 4 bruins? We saw one the other night that looked more like a black Toyota truck than a bruin. Now we just have to find him again!)

This should be fun....

Mark,

I got very close to the same speeds with my 308 Rock barrel using FGMM primers.

I ended up backing the charge down a grain for a bit more accuracy. But I doubt the speeds have much to do with the Wolf/ Tula primers.

Can't speak for the 260 speeds though....

Lookin' forward to this.

Thanks for taking the time.

Looking forward to the field results - great post by the way thank you!

Thx OSD, r you coming this way this spring?

Dober

+1

The bruins will get a free pass from me this year. I used my vacation time/gas money to go to Icebreaker instead.

Next year however, I'm going to try and swing both.

Been missing it.

Pat, does this mean you'll be giving away whichever rig comes out on bottom?

Missed seeing ya this spring, how about Sept?

Dober

Wolf/Tula seem to be about the same as a F210M, or CCI BR2. They just closed up my ES a bit. I switched a couple years ago.

I was over your way in mid May for bears, but had to cut it short for work commitments. I did see one nice brown boar that I would have shot but he was in a tough spot and didn't give me the shot I wanted....

That's funny right there.....grin!

Thx Pat,

My 22" .260 is running 2877 fps with 45/H4350 and #200's and R-P brass.

Fun lil rig, may well be turned into a Swift though this summer.

Dober

A look from the inside out...



A look at the dope for each rifle. Range cards are laminated and glued to the bottom of the AI magazine. Range is in meters, elevation adjustment is in mils.

I'm going to go on a limb here and say the field testing will result in dead critters. But maybe the .308 will make them deader. Just 'cause I like 308s!

Why do i sit behind a desk for a living again?

Cant wait to see the results pat. I could be happy with either of those rifles...

That is a lot of coyotes.

You didn't get the memo about blue tape?

I'm thinking it's more like the Yotes didn't get the memmo...grin

Dober

Rock 5R barrels are quick, plus 2" longer with a .260 is going to give at least 50-75fps more. You might try some Nosler/Norma brass, or Lapua.

I'd think that .8 more powder would kind of negate the extra 2". But then again, real world barrels can vary more than a bit.

Thx

Dober

You lost me there....

Where'd you get Badger M5's without the pogo stick...

Lapua .260 brass: 177.0 grains
Remington .260 brass: 165.0 grains

Might be the deal right there.....plus Lapua brass is stronger in the web area.

ehg, that is an after market mag release, made by RAD precision.

Ahhhh... Gotcha... I was wondering why Badger didn't send me a "Memo" on the new release...

I know you're a serious guy who can really shoot, so please tell me what you mean. An avg. of five, five shot groups, or ...?

Well, that's some pretty nice equipment there,

I think he means "Day in and day out"....

Very interested to watch this unfold. Having seen both rifles, and knowing Pat, this will be not only fun to watch, but extremely insightful.

We are really lucky to have folks that share like this here on the Campfire. Pat is a doer, not a talker, but when he talks (posts) it carries more weight (to me) than most, if not everyone, else.

Matt

I only shoot five shot groups. Not saying these, or any of my other GAP rifles have never shot .6 or .7, but they produce more groups in the .3's and .4's, than they do .6's or .7's. With the availability of precision rifle components, quality gunsmithing, reloading equipment and optics today, I don't consider it a "fluke" to average sub .5" at 100 meters, I expect it.

the green one is very sexy with the M5 ! like it...

Wish RAD still made those latches...

excited to see this test for sure !!

Pretty cool Pat.





Travis

I figured you meant something along those lines, thanks for making it plain. My factory rigs certainly won't match that, but I'm usually good for about .65 MOA out to 300 yards.

Tell us about the scopes please?

I'd like to see the outcome of this one too. My vote is for the .308, since I already have one. But the .260 looks good on paper.

Pat, Have you found any drawbacks to hunting with a straight 10x? I have thought about doing that, but with our sometimes close quarters in Alabama, could just never make the switch.

Thanks.
Bob.

Pat,
Thanks for taking the time for this! I am looking forward to the results as well...

Just out of curiousity, why did they stop making them?

Looks like a better design than the extended lever sticking out of the trigger guard...

Daggone it Pat,
You've got me looking at that Non typical .260 again...

My thoughts exactly, I look foward to this and any post he puts up. Very generous and much apreciated.

George told me they are in the process of getting another mold made.

I spend most of my time carrying my rifles right where that mag box is...
How do they carry with the mag box sticking down? I know they have nice slings

The balance point is right in front of the front guard screw. My hand does not touch the magazine. I carry my rifles in my hand quite a lot and it's not a concern.

Have the 130gr VLDs replaced the 139gr Scenar as your bullet of choice out of the 260? Or just for this rifle?

It'll be interesting to see the results of this test. But, if I was a betting man I know where I'd be laying my money...

I got a chance to do some shooting after a morning hunt today. The conditions were pretty good with very little mirage and a steady wind from 12 to 6 at about 8mph.




These were the first two five shot strings. Fired prone from a bipod and rear bag. The bullseye is 2.5". The shots were not timed and shot fairly quick, just as you would in a hunting situation. The .308 might have done a touch better here....






I moved back about 50 meters, changed the wind angle a bit and shot another five through both rifles...I held off .2 mils left/right for drift with both rifles. Advantage 130 VLD's here. Real world, a very dead big game animal all 20 shots.

There is slightly less recoil with the .260. Not that the .308 beats me up.

Thats all for today.....I'll keep shooting these two in the next few days.

Nice Pat.. how far out do you plan to test them ?

do the BC's of both bullets run pretty true to there claimed BC ?

I tweaked the BC to .490 on the 155 Scenars in mine and it runs great. The one we shot in Forsyth last August.

Could have also just lowered the velocity a hair and accomplished the same thing too.

The claimed .508 for the 155 was a little high as you said.....A G1 of 490-.495 has worked for me at 2950fps. A G1 of .552 has been spot on for the 130 VLD at 3000fps.

650-700 meters is plenty for these rifles. Probably as far as I would shoot at a big game animal under doable conditions.

I'm looking and waitng for some good, strong crosswind for my next session with them. I want to see what the real edge is with the 130 VLD is.

What are the shank lengths for these two from the face of the receiver? 1.75-1.80?

Thanks

Really awesome posts Pat. Super looking and functioning rigs, and I do believe those targets=dead critters and happy packing! grin

One question for you real quick, with the thinner pads, did you go with a longer LOP on the stock, or just leave it a bit shorter to have it be handier?

Thanks for the reports. They will help me with the 260 I am building. Using a LA Savage, SSS trigger, lug and a Pac-Nor barrel. Ordered some Lapua brass, Hornady 140 A-Max, Sierra 120 Match King, 130 Nosler AB and 130 Berger VLD bullets to play with.

I am looking forward to your next report.

Richard

I'm just a bettin but I'd go out on a limb and say that to 500 yds (easily as far as 99% of us have any business working in)they're both gonna be pretty much the same. If the wind gets to kicking then I'd give the edge to the 6.5. And once goes long 500-1K the 6.5 should prevail as well.

Penetration tests would be fun as well...grin

And 4 darn sure either rig is about as good as we're gonna get.

Dober

Awesome write up so far. Ive been working towards a 308 just like yours for a couple years now. You said youve killed over 800 coyotes with it, how long did that take?

1.70"

Those were taken with two different .308's, an M40A1 and a Surgeon Scalpel. I used those two rifles from 2005-2008. 98 were taken with 168SMK's with the M40A1, the rest were taken with 155gr scenars with the Surgeon. Since then I've been using my 6XC and GAP Crusader .260.

Pat,

Are you looking at building a 6mm Creedmore? Be interested to hear your thoughts on that platform for killing yotes and deer.

I have one now. It's built on a GAP10 semi-auto. It really shoots well. I've taken a few coyotes with it. Hornady is making brass with the correct headstamp for that cartridge now and is available through GA Precision.

It has a slight velocity edge over the 6XC....side by side they look almost identical. George designed it for use in comps where a lot of brass gets left on the ground. The Hornandy brass is less money than the Norma 6XC. I know a few guys who have built super accurate bolt rifles on it and love them.

Tanner, I keep the LOP the same on all of my rifles.

Thanks and sorry for the hijack!

thanks for the write up, i know im guilty of a pm or 2 about those 2 rifles

No worries!

I just shot them both at paper at 200 meters....I'll put up a pic in minute...

Not spectacular, but usable. Clean air, with winds gusting from rifle to target at 10 to 15mph. Hot here today, almost 90*F.

I'm thinkin' you might as well just box up the 308 a send it down this way...

Obviously it's not gonna cut it in a hunting situation...

I think I could slum a 308...

Very interesting thread!

It's obvious that you use top-notch components and equipment regarding rifles, optics, and ammo. What about your handloading equipment/methods? Anything special there regarding presses, dies, run-out, etc.?

Laffin' When you come up for bears next spring, stop by......I might even loan it to you.



It has killed a black bear or two......

Dats not a bruin that's a Toad!

What no 7/08...

Dober

Redding type "S" competition dies are what I use. Nothing else is very fancy.

That's what I'm thinking: Pat needs to split the difference. Then it'd be perfect!

Seriously, it's a fun thread. Nice rigs.

I thought Pat had done a GAP 7/08 a few years back but it might've been someone else.

Good to know. Thanks.

There's the 1/2 MOA or better you were talking about. Thanks for taking the time to do this Pat...rifle loonies gobble this kind of stuff up.

What's your .260 load, Pat?

Pat, you run 2000MR in the 308 yet?

It definitely gives a solid 50-75 fps over Varget and is close to Varget temp-sensitivity wise.

I've been stocking up on Varget for a while. Now I guess I better try 2000MR.

Several months ago I took your advice about RL17 in the 243 with the 80gr TTSX.......this after stocking up on H4350.....and RL17 was the winner.

Interesting results so far; based on the last picture you are running contrary to everyone�s opinion and numbers for grouping.
The 260 with the 130 bergers are far more slippery then the 308 155 scenars, yet your 200 group shows both vertical and horizontal dispersion to be smaller with the 308.

It seems to be that your comfort level with the 308 is trumping all the advantage the 260 is supposed to provide.

Good for you I am a big fan of 155 scenars and am rooting for the 308.

I think you may be drawing too much of a conclusion from the small data set you've seen.

Don't want to derail this fine thread, but curious as to data source on temp sensitivity of 2000MR? Been looking for info on that myself, and for a few other powders (AA2230, Leverevolution)

I would kindly disagree. I have based my opinion on the information presently available. A point in time comment. As it presently stands the 308 appears to be better then the 260.

Will that be the final conclusion when the test concluded most likely not. The 260 with its higher BC and faster speed will show that it will cut the wind and carry more velocity then the 308. The only question is when does the 260 over take the 308 in knock down power. 300-500 yards... sooner,later.

As to accuracy. I know from my own experience that the 308 is a more accurate round. everything else is up in the air and statistically favours the 260.

I'm gonna go out on limb and say the 260 will be first to the wire by a nose.

The 130 and 3000 fps will fair better in the conditions Montana tends to throw at a guy.

'course there seems to be some sentimental value of the Scenar. One slick pill and wakes up any .308

Both solid shooters, for me, I'd pick a 6.5 for drop/wind, etc. and feel it will match or better a 308 downrange.

Not much one would do that the other could not given these examples - good rifle/load-bullet, and shooter. The difference is small at 200 IMHO.

Nothing wrong w/the 308/155 but I like the 260/130 for less recoil and good trajectory/wind.

Mathman, agreed. It would take alot more data to draw any 'general conclusions' if we are talking 308 vs. 260.

What I can say is that over at snipershide dot com, an awful lot of 308 shooters have switched to 260 for a reason. That said, it has not and will not uproot the 308 for everyone or all applications.

The 308 is VERY rooted b/c it has such a history and there are so many scopes set up just for it.

Again, both will do a great job given the rifleman knows his rifle.

Good shooting Pat.

at 150 yards 300 yards and 500 yards... jus' sayin'..chuckle

I think the 260 wins due to slightly less recoil.


Pat, why not run a fast-twist 243?

I haven't yet, but it's on my short list....how was your ES with it?

I have one already....well, sort of. It's a 6XC that runs 115gr VLD's and Dtacs at 3000fps. Really a shooter.

Seems like the 2000MR would work with that 130 Berger too.

Funny that guys are already argueing/debating.

Sit back, relax and enjoy an informative presentation of real world data collected by a guy who presents facts, good or bad.

Thanks for doing this BTW,

Your western neighbor.

Pat, I've only loaded a few in each bullet weight and run them over the clock... I plan to accuracy test this summer.

PRM, a guy that posts over at snipershide.com worked on the 2000MR project... here's his data on temp sensitivity:

While I was out hunting this morning, I got to thinking about this thread and what kind of data and information I could add, besides shooting paper and steel and decided to put up some numbers on coyotes I've taken with both calibers. For many years I've kept very accurate records of the coyotes I've taken, rifle, load, day/date, distance, location, weather conditions, etc..I went through my journals and added up the distance per kill on 100 coyotes for each rifle.



This is my Surgeon .308. The load used in the comparison is the same as my light .308. The velocity is the same, 155 scenar at 2950fps.



This is my GAP Crusader .260. The load for this rifle is the 139 scenar at 2850fps. Both rifles are nearly identical....both sport S&B 5-25X56 PMII's, Mcmillan A5's, 26" MTU barrels, Jewell triggers set the same.

The farthest shot on 100 coyotes for the .308 was 866 meters. The closest was 31 meters. 16 shots were 400+ meters. The average shot was 274.28 meters.

For the .260 the farthest shot was 882 meters. The closest was 66 meters. 21 shots were 400+ meters. The average shot was 303.08 meters.

That's some pretty solid real world data there. I was a little surprised. Remember, coyotes aren't big game animals....I just thought this might be interesting to look at.

After I was finished comparing the .260 and .308's 100 coyotes, I did the same numbers with my Surgeon 6XC. It was 12 meters farther shot average than the .260.....but that could be another story in itself.....grin!

Oh baby, call me a sick man but I'm already for the white to come back...grin

Dober

Cool pics by the way, and probably literally..

Dober

Here's a question I would be curious to know.

It has nothing to do with ballistics or statistics

Which rifle is going with you to Wyoming next week?

And how did you go about making the decision?

Great write up Pat! I appreciate you taking the time to do this as there is always plenty of interest in these two.

My thought would be for a person unfamiliar with the weapon and perhaps drop, a 260 would be a fine choice. However for the person that wants to shoot a bunch a 308's barrel life should provide plenty of entertainment. Did I mention I have a rifle chambered in both?

6XC.....that rifle is like cheating......grin!

When the shoot is over I'm sending it back to Kansas City with George for a new barrel and suppressor.

I will have the Crusader .260 along if the XC breaks during the competition.

Right on! That heavy .308 of mine has 4000+ rounds through it and still shoots in the .2's and .3's.