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Yep, you sure showed me.

I asked how the consensus decision of black came about. Did it get the most first place votes? Was it the second runner up enough times that points won out? That's what I'm asking.

I made a clear distinction that you are missing - defense of the color choice and the fleece panel cover up is silly. Use of the gear because it functions well isn't.

How is it that I'm acting, that would get me kicked out at Kifaru? Are they really that sensitive over there? Are you a moderator there?

+100 !!

Sheesh, come on people...move on already! This isn't that important!

Black was the only option when I started looking into buying them. The decision was made, presumably by Patrick, back when they started producing the packs. Prior to 2002. I don't really know when it came about, I only remember(somewhat) Patricks explination, which is what I told you initially.

I didn't miss any distinction. You keep tripping over the black and fleece. I stated that I found it was no big deal IMHO. Yes, I would have preferred some other color. I really like the new options. Kudos to Kifaru for offering them.

No, I'm not a moderator. I think there are a few subjects that have been a little sensitive over there as of late. I think your calling Kifaru 'Rocky Mountain Gucci' would likely cause you some grief there as well.

I'm curious as to how many black hunting packs they sell to hunters these days compared to the various greens and camos.

WOW! It never stops.

It is like a bunch of school girls arguing about who has the coolest dress, or the one with the prettiest colors.

None...they don't offer it anymore.

All-black packs on eBay sell very, very well. I don't know who is buying them, though.

I always kind of liked black. Where I hunt elk, the wet lodgepole pine are black so it is better than most camo patterns.

I'm not dogpiling on Vek here, but black is a readily observable color - or lack thereof, in the ample shadows of nature. I own a first generation Kifaru Spike Camp that is black and the uber spooky blacktails and less-so Roosevelt elk that I've hunted on the Wetside with it didn't seem to dial in on it, but a little movement will bust a guy pronto.

Whether it's a solid color or the latest and greatest camo pattern, I'm of the opinion that inexplicable or non-normal movements give every animal the willies, including us. That's just how those of us in Kingdom Anamilia are hardwired for survival. Movement???...click, whir...Danger?!?! Does a camo or more neutral earth tone diminish the contrast and noticability (fancy new word) and therefore increase the stealth factor...no question.

I suspect that black cordura was less expensively sourced and made sense from Patrick's designer/manufacturer perspective, especially if the modular aspect of the reversible fleece panels were used in order to break up and negate the solid black color. Just a hunch. Nothing more. I've never asked him about it during our outings since there was always something more interesting being discussed. As it happens, a lot of very serious (and not-so serious) hunters bought them over the years and no doubt traded up over time. Competition being the good thing that it is, the significantly improved G2 suspensions and new earth-tone colors eventually came into being.

I've never felt compelled to use the fleece panels on my black or foliage packs. Instead, when required, I've opted for a extremely lightweight, el cheapo mesh blaze orange vest affixed around the outside that is easily taken on and off and still weighs next to nothing when soaked and about the size of a tennis ball when wadded up.

Not to digress too far from the pack color aspect of this discussion, but contrary to what some might think, I've never been on the Kifaru payroll and have merely helped organize, fun, casual backcountry gatherings of like minded people at various locales under the Rhino name and have been fortunate to make a lot of friends and aquantences while attending rondy's in other states.

Patrick is a friend of mine and undeniably an innovator in the industry. So are Evan and Scot. But that doesn't keep me from politely questioning, to their faces, one aspect or another of their product designs that I think could stand more critical review and improvement. You may have already gathered that I am not, and will never be, a yes man.

Here's a tidbit you all might find interesting that might dispell some of the "cult" notions people have with regard to Kifaru users. I seem to recall Evan mentioning to me that some newer people that attended our gatherings were a little surprised and maybe even a little upset to discover that the attendees, even long time Kifaru forum members like myself, were using all manner of different packs, shelters and clothing from a litany of manufacturers besides Kifaru. (Heck, while a bit of a rarity, I can think of a few attendees that didn't own a stitch of Kifaru product when they first came to a rondy.) For whatever reason, people that had never attended a rondy before had somehow managed to assume that there was a strict, cult-like Kool-Aid drinking adherance to all things Kifaru when, in actuality, there was merely a strong fellowship and growing friendship among backcountry hunters that frequented backcountry hunting forums that liked to get together around a real campfire, put faces with names and BS about all manner of stuff.

In that vein, WRT to the annual summertime rondezvous in the Northwest, anyone is welcome to come and put their mitts on all manner of gear and guns that anyone feels inclined to bring for show-and-tell-and-learn. We've seen it all. The next gathering, which will likely be smaller than in year's past due to a lot of scheduling conflict (and a big chunk of the Oregon contingent moving to CO) is going to be the first weekend in August. We haven't come to a decision yet as to whether it will be the customary backpacking trip to some new remote-ish locale or if it will be a car camp someplace that's convenient for the majority of confirmed attendees. Regardless, all are welcome.

vek, I call them elk, mule deer, and whitetails. I mostly hunt elk with the black pack.

And you can try to cast this as me "defending Kifaru's color choice with vigor" all you want but that's just not the case.

What I've said is, the color of their packs does not matter to me, and the fact is, you're attacking their color choice with vigor. You're the one who's making a mountain out of a molehill here.

I wasn't a party to Kifaru's color choice, I bought the pack and use it because of its functionality. In fact, I wore it yesterday with 35 lbs. of water in it, which is a good load for a pack that size. The weight rested right on the lumbar pad, and like I said in my first post, the pack carried the weight so well I forgot I had it on a few times. I've used the pack and killed animals with it on my back, and really never gave the color a second thought until you started in with your juvenile sniping.

And you can have all the "reasoned hypotheses" you want. But you've mis-directed the whole discussion by choosing an incorrect null hypothesis.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe it's your contention that wearing a black backpack affects a hunter's ability to kill elk and deer and that is your null hypothesis?

Have you ever even hunted elk?

Have you ever hunted with a black backpack?

If the answer to either or both is no, you have no data.

I have hunted elk and deer with a black backpack, and I've gotten in really close (to herds) and killed animals multiple times, and others have too.

So I have real data, and real world experience where you have a hypothesis. Any time I see someone touting a "reasoned hypothesis" in the face of hard data I know he's really reaching.

Actually no. Black, apart from a burn, is seldom scene. GRAY, or some shade thereof is what you refer to, not black. I graduated from SOTIC in 87. The instructors there were vehement about avoiding ANY black colored kit. The called it a "natural eye attractor". Many of them knew this from personal experience as snipers in Vietnam, as the VC were stupid enough to wear black in the daytime.

Tak,

Your point is well taken and entirely advisable IF you are hunting humans. However, since most of us take to the field to hunt deer, elk, bear, etc., and not humans, your point seems a tad tangential.

It's well known that we perceive colors differently than our four-legged prey. Black is just a dark shade of gray. And, there tends to be a lot of it in the witchy hours of morning and evening. Blaze orange is just another shade to deer, not necessarily the brilliant eye catching color that sticks out like a sore thumb to our eyes.



Mind you I'm not a proponent of wearing black while hunting. I think earth tones are a much better choice.

While, I do not doubt what you are posting concerning black in natural settings, the eyes of prey and predator animals differ in various ways. So, I do not see an exact correlation between sniping and hunting, in this respect.

Also, as I first posted and, regardless of the false comments about me posted here, I have spent decades working in the wilderness among game animals in both BC and Alberta. The major concern is movement of a sudden type and animals seem to react to this as "panic", so, "let's get outa Dodge".

Sudden movements, metallic noises, the human VOICE and your bipedal form will spook game FAR more than the black you might be wearing will and colour is more important in concealing your form and tiny unconcious twitches than it is in actually spooking an elk, for example.

One can also perceive black as simply the absence of color from lack of reflected light. In that regard, it is EVERYWHERE there is a shadow - in the undercut of a boulder, the deep shade of a bush, yadi-yada. Saying there is not much "color black" in the outdoors where we hunt may generally be true when in direct view of the light but everywhere else however... they are all shades of black

Reread the post; my stated hypothesis had nothing to do with hunting effectiveness. I like to stack the deck in favor of my not being noticed, and I like being colored like rocks, vegetation, and dirt.

Others have noted that predators and prey see things differently. I spotted a black bear on the shore of PWS while my wife was driving the boat, and the plotter indicated that the bear was well over a mile away. It was a non-moving tiny black dot on the beach and caught my eye, and the bear subsequently died. I highly doubt a shore-stone colored bear would have. I suppose that doesn't count.

Are elk special? I only have one Frank Church raghorn to my credit. Had a good WA draw tag in hand but blew my opportunities there. I've only had tag in hand for branch bulls twice, and went 1 for 2.

You don't know what you're spooking, and you haven't run a comparative spook test. If those animals you've closely approached were animals you'd spotted from a distance (or from a position where your bulk form was screened) and you used cover (to include your drab-colored body hiding the black from line-of-sight to the animals) to hide your approach, then your "data" doesn't apply. If you suddenly noticed yourself surrounded by elk while sneaking through open understory, well, I don't have an answer for that.

double tap

...yeah...but would you have spotted a Kifaru Longhunter all decked out in fleece panels on the rock right next to the bear??...

I'm not going to disagree that the eye, at least our eyes, will lock up on a single black spot in an otherwise earthtone environment, but I don't really think that the little bit of black peeking out from behind the fleece panels is going to be a deal breaker in the typical hunting encounter.

Like nearly everyone has mentioned, its the movement that usually does you in.

Irregardless, my biggest bone of contention with the black was our deer season and bear season run together. It gives me pause that some jackazz will catch an itty bitty peek at the black and decide to shoot, thinking I'm a bear. Using that line of reasoning, the Vibram sole of my boot could very well do me in also.

Two things I really like about the fleece panels are, they help to quite things down a bit, and the orange is handy when I get a set of horns strapped to the pack. I try to hide them the best I can, but I always turn all the fleece around to keep the same knucklhead mentioned before from shooting at me thinking I'm a deer...wearing a Kifaru...covered in fleece...lol...

If it makes me stupid in your eyes, so be it.

I think this image is perpetuated by the polite practice most everyone follows on the Kifaru forums of not being critical of K gear on the K forum. At least for me, that mindset spread to self censoring lots of things I might have otherwise said there as well (mostly some notable examples of poor hunting, backcountry, and miscellaneous ethics by well regarded forum members, all the way to the very top).

That's why Scot and I decided to leave that forum. Not being able to speak candidly goes from being wearisome to feeling like a lie at times. That's also why I made it clear in a sticky post on our forum that we wouldn't tolerate folks not speaking candidly about our products, and not steering people towards products that might suit their individual needs better. We value truth above product sales, and not every product works equally well for everyone out there. That has always been one of the benefits of 24hr -- it's an open, non-manufacturer dominated forum.

We've got a slogan over here (that came from scripture) since Joe Hayes came onboard -- "As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another." That's what a convocation of like minded individuals has the potential to be, a thing all too rare in today's world.

Meanwhile, back at the ranch, the OP simply asked about a comfortable backpack.

Not sure if he got a useable answer or if somwhere around page 12 he simply put a gun to his head and put himself out of his misery.

Well, not everyone. I for one have been critical of $500+ packs with idiotic "sleeping bag" zippers (Doesn't everybody take their sleeping bag out for lunch?)

I also never could warm up to ANY of the Kifaru shelters smaller than a 6man. All had/have something I don't want, IE, two doors, or something I couldn't tolerate, IE, stove placement guaranteed to ignite a sleeping bag (paratipi).