Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Express Rifles and Big Bores Only .444 Marlin - good for big bear?

No one will dispute that the 444 will kill a big bear, but the question is, is it good for big bear?

And to that question, one has to look at the ranges and conditions big bears are hunted in. When that is factored, as well as the $12-15,000 for the non res guided hunt, I'd say the 444 lever gun is resounding not a good choice. A 338 win mag or 375 H&H are most definately good choices.

I would put the .444 in the same class as a hot .30-06 load of 180-gr TBBC or Swift inside 100 yards. The closer I get, the more I want my .375 H&H. Of course, your guide is probably going to be carrying one of those, and people kill big bears with arrows inside 10 yards.

People shoot clean thru grizzly bears with bows inside 30 yards, but comparing arrows to bullets is like comparing apples to oranges. The arrow kills by hemorage not shock.

As to your 300gr XTP outpenetrating a 180gr TBBC I would have to see that to believe it, I haven't been very impressed with 300gr XTP penetration out of an 454 cassul or magnum muzle loaders. You definately welcome to use whatever rifle you may want, and lucklily you will have a guide that will back you up if things go wrong. I never hunt with a guide so I use a more adequate gun from the start. My bear guns are 338 RUM w/ 225gr Accubond @ 3150, 9.3x62 w/286gr partiton @ 2400, 375 H&H with 270gr TSX @ 2700fps, or 300gr partition @ 2550. For backup work or really thick cover I use a guide gun w/ 405gr kodiak bonded @ 1925fps.

Aside from a good hard cast I have yet to see a 429cal bullet that I would call adequate for big bears when driven to 444 velosities.

I wasn't comparing an arrow to any bullet, but noting that bowhunters take large bears inside 20 yards using a single shot weapon that has no "knock down power" and requires a lot longer to kill the animal.

In the past, I have posted the US Forest Service study on rifles for defensive use against bears, which ranked the .444 at the top. Another study I posted was a survey of bear guides and records of client kills. Interestingly, the .270 Win was at the top for one-shot kills, probably due to hunter skill and patience in shot selection.

If you read my post again, you will see that I said I would choose a my .375 H&H for intentional bear stalking. The fact remains that the .444 is, in the opinion of experts who have used it, superior to the .30-06 and .300 H&H. Its penetration through almost 3 feet of tight, wet magazines indicates to me that it would probably shoot through any bear at the angle one should be shooting. It is certainly capable of much faster 2nd and 3rd shots than a bolt action.

Here is an example of a .375 JDJ (necked down.444 Marlin )taking cape buffalo from a handgun:
http://www.americanshooting.com/American%20Shooting%20nine%20l.html

Once again the 375 is shooting bullets of better construction than a pistol bullet pushed to fast.

Arrowing a bear is actually safer than shooting one with a rifle. If your smart the bear never knows where you are or what just happened, often just looking around for a minute then walking a short ways and collapsing. 90% of the time an arrow shot bear either runs the direction its facing or back where it came from never knowing why it doesnt feel so good all of the sudden. THe arrow zips thru so fast they don't really feel it like they do a gunshot.

When you shoot one with a gun you make plenty of noise along with the shock and they tend to associate the two together istantly marking you as the enemy, and source of thier discomfort.

My problem isn't with the 444 case, its the bullets that are availbable for it. All too often 240gr pistol bullets are pushed well beyond thier ability hold together. If there were more bullets actually designed for the 444 as a rifle I wouldn't think twice about it. Maybe a heavier version of the new hornady lever revelution. There are some decent bullets out there, the hard cast, and a few jacketed bullets like hawks heavy jacked 300gr RN and SP. An all copper flat point solid like the belt mountain punch bullet would be another good one. THe 444 is just hamstringed by bullet selection when truly big game is concerned.

Actually the 444 is hamstrung with two things, one being the bullets, and the other is a slow barrel twist that barely stabalizes the heaviest of current bullets.

I'd imagine with a fast twist and a tougher 350 gr bullet @~1800 fps, the 444 would be a credible big bear gun.

As it is the, the 444 is about a 3/4 size 45-70, but without the same choice of bullets, and without a fast enough twist to stabalize heavies.

Marlin 444s have had a 1:20" twist since 1999. Beartooth makes 355 grain and 405 grain bullets for the 444.

So I did a little research. Barnes Manual #1 shows the 45-70 holding 75.5gr of water, to the 444's 69.5gr. An 8% advantage to the 45-70 since both cases are so similar in configuration. Beartooth bullets shows their 355gr WLNGC bullet (a very fine hard cast unit) reaching 2154fps, behind 45gr of RL-7. AND they got 3/4" accuracy with the old slow twist 22" barrel. That same 355gr bullet has a SD of .276, which happens to be exactly the same as a 405gr .458 bullet. So, while the 45-70 really can be more powerful than the 444, the margin of victory really isn't as great as most have lead us to believe. Having said all that and having owned a Marlin model 444S for the last 15 yrs, if I had to do it over I'd get the 45-70. BUT....for the marginal upgrade in power it's not worth the cost of trading firearms and purchasing new dies. So I'll keep pluggin' along with my 444.
ps- I also realize that MUCH heavier bullets are available for the 45-70.

I will agree that the 45-70,458 etc offer some gain over the .444.That's not the question.How dead is dead enough.First off,let's eliminate the pistol bullet argument .Saying .444 bullets aren't up to bear standards is like saying the .270 is no good for deer,because those 90 HP's blow up really easy.Of course they do, that's why no one recommends them for deer.Well, no one recommends using a 240 gr bullet for big bears either.Bullet selection is no concern,as Beartooth,Cast Performance,Barnes and Buffalo Bore all make very good,suitable bullets.These bullets are accessible to anyone,so what's the problem?None of the calibre's mentioned are any good if the wrong bullet/load is used.Therefore,one must assume that the correct type of bullet will be used.As far as heavy bullets go,the idea that they wont't stabilize is mostly held by people who have never tried it or even seen it tried.Visit Beartooth Bullets and you'll see even older Marlin's,supposedly the worst offender's,shoot heavy bullets very well.And most latter .444's have a faster rate of twist.Given a choice of rifles to use on big bears at reasonable range,say 150 yds and less,I'll take my .444 with some hardcast 330's over any .338 Win. out there.Oh yeah,Paco Kelly is taking his .444 to Africa this year.That should be an eye opener.

A lot of old wives tales still persist about
"the 240-gr handgun bullet in a .444",
"the .444 cannot stabilize heavy bullets"
and "the Marlin Micro-groove cannot shoot cast bullets".

Go read the 3 articles on Beartooth Bullets website.
Borrow a .444, load it with some 240-gr Remingtons, Hornady 265-gr , and Hornady 300-gr factory loads, and shoot it for groups and into something substantial, like 36 inches of wet potter's clay.

potters clay doesn't have 4' claws and lots of sharp teeth. I can't rmemeber the last time a lump of potters clay mauled anyong either.

These threads always crack me up. There are some loads out there in cast and jacketed that take the 444 Marlin up quite a few notches in capability. Ammo such as CorBon, Buffalo Bore, and Grizzly all offer jacketed and cast loads up to 330 grains all between 2050 fps and 2300 fps. Beartooth, as already stated, offers 355 and 405 grain cast bullets.

The twist is much faster today with 1-20 in Marlins. Some Winchester Black Shadow Big Bores were offered with 1-12 in the 444 Marlin. I have one of the latter.

What gets me somewhat chuckling is the fact that any of the loads above absolutely smoke a 454 Casull load at any range, and we know what the Casull is capable of. The reason I compare this is that many hunters take the great bears of the Northwest with the Casull, yet many think the 444 Marlin is only slightly more powerful than the 44 Remington Mag. One could not be more mistaken. If you use the heavy bullets (330-355 grains) loaded at the high end, you will generate 3500-3700 ft-lbs and open up a hole with starting diameter of .430-inches. I point this out because the great 375 H&H starts a 300 grainer at 2550 fps and 4200 ft-lbs with a .375 diameter. Out to 100 yards the 444 Marlin is every bit the equal in knocking down thin skin game as the 375 H&H is.

Obviously the 45-70 can generate more muscle and therefore is a more viable choice for guide gunning; however, for the hunter using the loads above, the 444 Marlin is plenty capable of taking all the large bears of North America and would certainly do fine on all the antelope running through the African Continent.

Consider again Brian Pearce shooting through two cape buffalo at 80 yards broadside with a 45-70 loaded with the CorBon 405 Penetrator solid flat nose ammunition. The second shot went in the high hammy and penetrated 6-ft to the chest. This load left the lever gun at 1680 fps, the PH was amazed that this load went completely through the bull and completely through the matriarc behind him. The reason this is interesting to me is that the same bullet is available in the 444 Marlin 305 grain ammunition. The only difference is the muzzle velocity of the 305 grain Penetrator load comes out at 2150 fps in short levers (20 inch-22 inch barrels).

I'm not advocating the use of a 444 Marlin on the likes of cape buffalo, although I do believe you could take one with that load. You can rest assured that the CorBon 280 soft point at 2300 fps backed up by the solids would cut a bear to pieces and take all the antelope Africa has to offer with little fuss.

The 444 Marlin is much better than all the negative b.s. the phoney gun writers ever penned about it. None who wrote of it ever took it to the limits it was meant for. Today, it is a different story and one really cannot discount its power. Like so many other cartridges, its paper ballistics do not match its killing power. But the same is said of the 375 H&H and 358 Winchester.

Well done!

Quote:--"The reason this is interesting to me is that the same bullet is available in the 444 Marlin 305 grain ammunition. The only difference is the muzzle velocity of the 305 grain Penetrator load comes out at 2150 fps in short levers (20 inch-22 inch barrels). "

Rossi, the other difference is sectional density, with the .458 slug going .276 while the .429 bullet of the .444 scores .237. Since the bullets are otherwise identical, one would think the .45 bullet would out-penetrate the .444. How much, and whether it matters in this context, I have no idea.

I would use a 300 grain bullet in my .375 or a 400 grain in my double .400 if push came to shove, but I would think a very hard cast 300+ grain bullet at .444 velocities would do the trick. As noted, it would certainly beat the tar out of any handgun.

The SD difference between .276 and .237 is meaningless, because they both change to something else much lower about 6 inches after impact. Both bullets are probably going to go completely through most bears, unless they hit heavy bones.

Those bullets usually look like they could be reloaded even after passing through bone and meat. That's the point of using them. As the Cor-Bon website says: " There is no expansion with this load and is best selected when bone breaking power is needed"

If they were soft points I'd agree with you, but those super hard cast bullets perform more like a solid. And again, even if they deformed, since they are exactly the same otherwise, more is better when it comes to SD. As I said, it may not matter. If the bullet goes through and whistles off into the bush, it ain't an issue, obviously.

The advice that you have gotten in this thread regarding using the right bullet is dead on.

Time and again, I have read reports and seen photos of heavy, hard cast lead bullets killing all sorts of large, heavy, or dangerous game very capably. Sometimes, the reports clearly showed that the hunter was a risk taker (One guy got all of the Big Five in Africa).

However, the reports about "bad bullets" is based in fact. In my little corner of heaven, only Remington 240 JHP are available over the counter in the 444 in the big stores. That really is a 44 magnum bullet in that box. But, the 240 grain JHP is AOK for and deer. That being said, I have not heard good things about it for Black Bear, Elk, Mooses, or wild boar.

But, Hornady loads a Light Magnum 444 with a good 265 grain bullet and most gun shops can get it for you. The reports I have read from guys who have actually killed something with this load indicate it is good for Black bear, Wild Boar, and Elk.

Otherwise, hard cast lead bullets are just fine (The Big Bears, Moose, etc). Every report I have seen indicates that good, hard cast lead bullets fly right on through whatever they are shot into. This is where the Buffalo Bore and other stuff comes in. (handloaders can order Hard Cast Lead Bullets from Midwayusa).

So, I say, if you want to take a 444 hunting for Big Bears, go right ahead.

As always, the three most important factors are: (1) use the right bullet; (2) practice, practice, practice; and (3) make sure that your guide understands and is comfortable with your choice.

Good Shooting,

BMT

Rossi--good post. BMT, also nicely done. I've flattened enough deer/black bear to highly respect the 444 and what it can do. I realize we're talking big bears here though. My current favorite loading for deer/blackies uses a 270gr gold dot. A load I read about in a Brian Pearce article in Rifle/Handloader. He tested it out on diseased cattle and stated that the wound channels it caused were "nothing short of devastating". With the right bullet, (cast--not the Remmy 240gr handgun crap) I'm sure it would take big bears, as is Mr. Pearce. 2 years ago I absolutely bang-flopped a nice black bear in upper Michigan (da U.P.) with my 444 270gr gold-dot loading. Another guy in camp shot one with a 450 Marlin factory XTP load. I'm not saying that the 444 is any better than the 450, but the guy who skinned the bears(he's done hundereds) was asking me, and not the other guy, what in the hell I'd shot that thing with!---2MG

As usual, thanks for all the replies and the information.

Here's something else to add, questionwise: I forget their name, but they're coming out with special new bullets that have soft-rubber points, and are made for lever-action, tubular-magazine rifles. Does the introduction of these new bullets make a difference in your answers?

No. Not in the 444. They are not as tough as a bonded-core or cast bullet. They may help out in the 30-30 or maybe even the 35Rem, but will not do much, if anything at all, to increase the effectiveness of the 444 or 45-70 IMHO---2MG