Home Forums Hunting & Shooting BPCR Duplex loads

Not looking for anything to attack you on. Simply asking questions that you seem to be pretty obviously dodging the hell out of....
The Question was HAVE YOU EVER CHRONOGRAPHED ONE OF THE ORIGINAL 1880'S LOADS ?
Second question was after a bit of the long way around the barn from your non answer. WHAT VELOCITY DID YOU GET?
Nothing more nothing less just simple questions that would seemingly be pretty simple to answer.
Seems a bit odd to me that if a person can generate 1600 fps using 300 gr bullets from a 45-70, it wouldn't be that much of a stretch to get to 1700 with a 3 1/4 inch case.
As to velocity running different in the real world than from manufacturers published velocity, I'ld suggest you never ever run a 30-30 over a chronograph.....

As usual - keyboard expert Don, looking to rumble. This place is becoming useless.

The question is a simple one. What were the velocities you got in feet per second with the original cartridges? Just to say they were in line with the original postings does not help those of us who do not have access to that information. You are either going to be helpful, or be a troll by virtue of a tease. Which is it?

I have read that duplex loads burn somewhat cleaner, but I will not defile my Sharps with white powder.

Gunner

I never dodged anything. I answered the questions thoroughly and to the best of the collective knowledge at the time. I'm sorry you don't understand that. Nor am I a troll or a tease. You've attacked me in the past and by your own words choose to "speak your mind" with little or no regard for dipomacy, tact or consideration. Given your past responses directed toward me in other threads it seemed apparent to me you were leading up to the same thing. And the fnags are showing already.

I have never chronographed an American manufactured, factory rifle cartridge. But to assume that I'm ignorant of their embellishment of the figures is more than a stretch. That their figures were inflated was established back in the 1950's. With the advent of home chronographs it isn't easy for them to get away with inflated figures.

I've read more than a few articles wherein the author had chronographed original British BPE cartridges. There are not a lot of them out there but enough articles exist to draw something of a conclusion. That and the few that I've done pretty much agree with their findings. That is that the British ammunition compaines were not very eager to inflate the velocities of their ammunition. Those loads chronographed have been quite close to published velocities. Pretty much the same held true from ammunition off the Continent.

The information for the cartridges listed is readily available today, as compared to when I started shooting them. To suggest otherwise simply doesn't hold with the evidence. At any rate, here are the factory loads most often listed.

11.15 X 60, (43 Mauser)
370 gr. lead bullet
77 grs. Fg
1430 fps

450 X 3 1/4
365 gr. lead bullet
120 gr
1750 fps

500 BPE
340 gr. PP lead bullet
136 gr.
1880 fps

I read this post this morning and didn't have time to look up my records and I haven't taken the time to look them up since I got home. I assure you they are in my "pile" somewhere and I will find them. When I do I will post the results I got.

Over the weekend I dug out all my Double Gun Journals and organized them into years and put them in those magazine holders so I could put them in my loading room. While doing so I browsed through a few issues and came upon one written by Sherman Bell in 2004. I read it because he was doing pressure tests on straight black loads, NFB loads with filler and duplex loads. In that article he stated that he had achieved regulation in an Alexander Henry, 450 X 3 1/4 double with straight black powder loads. He had to drop to a 300 gr. bullet to do it but that doesn't matter, it worked and that load is fine for anything in North America except for possibly the big bears. Mr. Bell has been shooting and studying doubles for something over 30 years and until that time had never been able to achieve regulation with black.. He was using KIK powder. He's ahead of me as I've yet to achieve regulation with straight black.

The thrust of the article was pressures with the loads mentioned. Again, duplex loads developed lower pressures than black or NFB loads. I don't remember exactly how much lower they were but 1 1/2 tons sticks in my mind.

Things change, evolve and products improve. I have to confess that I haven't done any BPE load development since before 2000. I worked up accurate, effective loads and use them still today. That will change soon as a recently arrived Cape gun in 43 Mauser X 16 bore is awaiting load development. I read and hear where todays powders are hotter, better. If that's true perhaps I should revisit my loads with newer black. Maybe regulation with straight black can be achieved now in more than an occasional double. If anything I've posted doesn't hold true with newer manufactured powders then I will stand corrected, today. I do know it was beyond the ability of black in the 1990's through 2000 to regulate in almost all doubles due to not generating enough velocity. As recently as last year it still wouldn't regulate in my 500 BPE.

Here's some load data that may be of interest to you.

http://www.goexpowder.com/images/LoadCharts/Cartridge-Rifle.pdf

Sorry you misunderstood the question and the intent.... Was just simply wondering what your chronograph numbers said, no more no less...

I did not misundertand the question and I'm quite certain of the intent.

A new to me Jost & Diehl Cape gun from between 1874 and 1882 arrived and working with it I've spent more time in my loading room. I sent back the one in 43 Mauser X 16 bore...it just wasn't what I wanted. I found another in what I'm pretty sure is 10.5 X 47R and 16 bore. That's as close as I can find from the chamber cast. the 16 bore is chambered for the 2 1/2 brass or paper hull and has 6 major lands of straight, Henry style rifling and between each rifling is 6 lesser lands of straight, Henry style rifling. I've read of it but this is the first example I've seen. This one is gonna be interesting! I finally found my data from my shooting of the original 43 Mauser loads and 500 BPE loads. After 3 moves since I did the shooting they were kinda MIA.

43 Mauser, dated 4 September 1995
#1 - 1390 fps
#2 - 1396 fps
#3 - 1427 fps
#4 - 1402 fps

I have a question mark next to the 1427 load but do not remember why. I suspect because it read so much higher.

500 BPE, I did not write down the date but suspect summer or early autumn of 1997 because I got my 500 a little over 2 years after the 43 Mauser.
#1 - 1799 fps
#2 - 1810 fps
#3 - 1788 fps

I thought that pretty close for what was 100 year old ammo at the time.

I didn't find the 400 BPE data and I expect I gave it to the owner of the rifle.