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Thanks very much for the offer Kraky, but I am fairly comfortable with my loads in my rifle. I was mainly interested in what QL thinks of the difference in the pressure characteristics of the 120TTSX vs 120NBT. It seems my experience of the TTSX generatign higher velocity isn't a univeral finding.
Thanks, Jason.
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Jason you've got it figured out correctly. I'm surprised at how many reloaders think that if a bullet makes more speed with a like charge it is "slipperier" and thus makes less pressure.
I've played around with quite a few barnes over the years. From well before the tsx's even came out. With the tsx's I've found they can make identical speed to cup and core, make a little less, and make a little more.
RE quickloads ability to work with this it does have a higher start pressure that can be dialed in with mon bullets. It also knows how long every bullet is that is in its "library" and it dials in more pressure to the predictions for longer bullets. In my book it is a bit oversensitive to the longer bullets.
Just curious if you are giving that ttsx at least .050" jump like recomended. If not...and some people don't, I could see that contributing.
I just loaded a batch of 4 different test loads of the 145lrx for a friends 7-08. Barnes told me to use 150 tsx data as it is a long bullet. I cross ref'd ql and load manuals quite a bit for my guesses on the 4 test loads. They won't be weanie but they shouldn't be naughty either. The chrono and shell casings hopefully will clearly be the final judge.
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Joined: Feb 2009
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Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
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Thanks. Yes, my TTSX load does jump by at least 50 thou. My chamber has a long throat so all the 120s jump a long way. Both the TTSX and NBT shoot very well though.
I'll be interested to hear your results with the LRX.
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Campfire Greenhorn
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Just got back from the range. Decreased 1 grain to 48.5 and velocity was at 3275, 3275, 3280, and 2 chronograph errors  Used Win. brass, slight tension on bolt lift, but these cases have been fired 3 times and only neck sized, and some were tight going in. Primers looked good. Accuracy was about the same 5 in about an inch. Lets assume this load is still a little hot at 80-85 degrees. As this will be my hunting load, any opinions on how a 50 degree temp drop would affect it. 75 fps? BTW - yeah, I know Im a dummy for not starting lower and working up. But like I said earlier, there were no pressure signs.
Last edited by Slim1754; 07/07/12.
60 percent of the time, it works every time
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You'll probably drop 1 fps per degree. Maybe the 85 degree stuff is helping spike the powder even more and that's just one trait of the powder. I would have thought win brass would have been equal to a grain of powder. For fun take a fired win case and a fired rem case and fill them both with a fine gunpowder to the top of the case. (I find this easier than monkeying with water). Actually your cfe will probably be just fine to try. Then weigh the charges. I would expect the win will hold 1-1.5 grains more. Also just for giggles weigh the brass and compare rem to win. I also now see how dumb I was modifying the first chart to 3240 fps.....you were crankin 3340 YIKES. That stuff is acting like I4895 without any changes to case capacity. Heres a new chart. Maybe I've fubared this to the point of no credibility!! According to the chart....if the case capacity is a match between the rem and win that would explain your speed drop. Any chance that ammo today was laying in the sun getting hot? Cartridge : 7 mm-08 Rem.
Bullet : .284, 120, Nosler BalTip 28120
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.800 inch or 71.12 mm
Barrel Length : 22.0 inch or 558.8 mm
Powder : ? IMR 4895 ?, Temperature: 85 �F
Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 1.0% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !
Step Fill. Charge Vel. Energy Pmax Pmuz Prop.Burnt B_Time
% % Grains fps ft.lbs psi psi % ms
-10.0 98 44.56 3037 2458 55797 9699 99.7 1.011 ! Near Maximum !
-09.0 99 45.05 3068 2508 57716 9757 99.9 0.996 ! Near Maximum !
-08.0 100 45.55 3099 2558 59702 9810 99.9 0.981 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
-07.0 101 46.04 3129 2609 61760 9857 100.0 0.966 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
-06.0 102 46.54 3160 2660 63894 9898 100.0 0.952 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
-05.0 103 47.03 3190 2711 66097 9936 100.0 0.938 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
-04.0 105 47.53 3220 2762 68397 9973 100.0 0.924 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
-03.0 106 48.02 3250 2814 70779 10010 100.0 0.911 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
-02.0 107 48.52 3280 2866 73246 10045 100.0 0.898 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
-01.0 108 49.01 3309 2918 75809 10079 100.0 0.885 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+00.0 109 49.51 3339 2970 78468 10113 100.0 0.872 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+01.0 110 50.01 3368 3023 81234 10145 100.0 0.860 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+02.0 111 50.50 3397 3075 84106 10177 100.0 0.847 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+03.0 112 51.00 3426 3128 87093 10207 100.0 0.835 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+04.0 113 51.49 3456 3182 90198 10237 100.0 0.824 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+05.0 114 51.99 3485 3235 93432 10265 100.0 0.812 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Results caused by � 10% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge
Data for burning rate increased by 10% relative to nominal value:
+Ba 109 49.51 3436 3145 93146 9732 100.0 0.819 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Data for burning rate decreased by 10% relative to nominal value:
-Ba 109 49.51 3188 2709 64986 10531 99.1 0.943 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
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Joined: Jul 2012
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Campfire Greenhorn
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OK - Win brass held 60.1 grains cfe, and Rem came in at 59.3
I cant weigh the brass because my little lee scale only goes up to 110 grains. I have been seating them at 2.81. I dont know if the .01" makes a difference in the calculations. The bench was under a big shadetree so the rounds should have been at ambient temp. I just loaded up 6 more in the Rem brass and dropped it to 48.1 grains. I am going to try to shoot them tomorrow a.m. while it is still cool and see what I get.
BTW I was also shooting some 110ttsx in my .270 using 53.1 gr. cfe @ 3300 fps. Best groups I ever shot. I really like this stuff. I wanted to try it in my rifles because I am sick of cleaning copper out, and it is supposed to help with fouling. Unfortunately, it does not seem to help much with that. Sure does shoot well though.
60 percent of the time, it works every time
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I'd say your two lots of brass are close enough in capacity to be almost meaningless....probably 20-25fps diff and that can happen from day to day with the chrono pretty ez. Now...I'm glad you reported on the cfe in the 270. I picked up a marlin 270 last winter and really like it for the $$$$. I wanted to try some 110 ttsx's but midway was out when I ordered but they did have some federal factory hyper velocity on a great sale so I picked up a box of them with an order. They were rated at 3400fps and in my 22" barrel did 3350....so their claim was on the money. Pretty good thermometer of a speed I don't want to excede during load development. Now with the cfe powder it seems to be designed for the shorter cases. Sometimes these new powders kind of change their personality when you put them in a '06 based case. IE the leverevolution powder works great on 308 and 30-30 cases but seems to have no help in other bigger casings. So to see how my theory of it acting like i4895 in your 7-08 I put that charge into the 270 and a 110 bullet at 53.1 grains.....look what it comes up with.. Cartridge : .270 Win. (CIP)
Bullet : .277, 110, Hornady V-MAX 22720
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.340 inch or 84.84 mm
Barrel Length : 22.0 inch or 558.8 mm
Powder : ? IMR 4895 ?, Temperature: 85 �F
Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 1.0% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !
Step Fill. Charge Vel. Energy Pmax Pmuz Prop.Burnt B_Time
% % Grains fps ft.lbs psi psi % ms
-10.0 84 47.79 3019 2226 46307 11228 99.5 1.088
-09.0 85 48.32 3049 2270 47723 11313 99.7 1.073
-08.0 86 48.85 3078 2314 49180 11394 99.8 1.059
-07.0 87 49.38 3107 2358 50680 11469 99.9 1.044
-06.0 88 49.91 3136 2403 52224 11539 100.0 1.030
-05.0 89 50.45 3165 2447 53815 11603 100.0 1.016 ! Near Maximum !
-04.0 90 50.98 3194 2492 55452 11662 100.0 1.002 ! Near Maximum !
-03.0 91 51.51 3222 2536 57138 11719 100.0 0.989 ! Near Maximum !
-02.0 92 52.04 3251 2581 58874 11776 100.0 0.975 ! Near Maximum !
-01.0 93 52.57 3279 2626 60662 11832 100.0 0.963 ! Near Maximum !
+00.0 94 53.10 3307 2671 62503 11887 100.0 0.950 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+01.0 95 53.63 3335 2716 64401 11941 100.0 0.937 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+02.0 96 54.16 3363 2762 66357 11995 100.0 0.925 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+03.0 97 54.69 3390 2807 68372 12048 100.0 0.913 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+04.0 97 55.22 3418 2853 70451 12100 100.0 0.901 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+05.0 98 55.76 3445 2899 72590 12152 100.0 0.890 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Results caused by � 10% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge
Data for burning rate increased by 10% relative to nominal value:
+Ba 94 53.10 3411 2841 73673 11504 100.0 0.889 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Data for burning rate decreased by 10% relative to nominal value:
-Ba 94 53.10 3150 2424 51965 12210 98.7 1.030
I think I said earlier that I have a pound of cfe sitting on my shelf.....I think you may have given me a thermometer of what I might expect from what you've done. If I were you I'd still be looking at testing that 708 for accuracy down around 3175fps. And thats about 46.5 grains in this weather. Then in fall with colder weather you may add another grain to maintain that. Its your gun and your decision....at least I'd keep watching for more input on the chatrooms on what this powder is doing for others.
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Joined: Jul 2012
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Campfire Greenhorn
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I appreciate all of your input. That chart seems very close. I also loaded at 53.6 and 54 grains cfe in 110 ttsx At those charges, velocity became erratic and 54 was definitely too hot. I read posts where guys using about 59 gr rl-17 to get 3500+ for 110 ttsx. Well, 57 gr. seemed too hot for my gun (rem 700 sps 24") and accuracy sucked. that load was about 3300 fps also if I remember right.
Jeff
Last edited by Slim1754; 07/07/12.
60 percent of the time, it works every time
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CFE 223 has given me similar velocities in my wife's 7-08ai with 120 gr TTSX. I thought my chrony was lying too at first but other guns were reading as expected. First group (Fed 215 primers) of 3 bullets averaged 3301 fps, second group (BR-2) was 3342 fps. No pressure signs in either load. Interesting that the BR-2 was faster - it was also more accurate, just under an inch. I was also using the max load listed on Hodgdon's site. I will back down at least a grain before I shoot any more. This was with WW brass and temp in the 70s. It scoots 'em right along fo sho.
"Blessed is the man whose wife is his best friend - especially if she likes to HUNT!"
"Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength, and love your neighbor as yourself. There is no commandment greater than these."
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Just out of curiosity, what is your OAL? Mine have been at 2.81, but I have been considering seating them deeper.
60 percent of the time, it works every time
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This gun has a Wyatt's box and I have been seating them at 2.850".
"Blessed is the man whose wife is his best friend - especially if she likes to HUNT!"
"Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength, and love your neighbor as yourself. There is no commandment greater than these."
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New Member
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Have any of you high speed light bullet guys done any of the Hexagonal Boron Nitride tricks to lower the peak pressures of these maximum CFE223 loads while letting the little pills zip on down the frictionless barrel a little bit faster?
It is a well documented trick, that hexagonal boron nitride powder tumbler impacted into a bullet surface coating. Hexagonal boron nitride was developed after Moly showed the ability to rust a barrel underneath the coating build up on the barrel steel as the varmint guys sure liked what Moly did apart from the rust under the coating issue.
I personally have sent 160 grain 7mm-08 rounds down a Savage barrel using the hexagonal boron nitride treatment and a book maximum compressed load of Reloader 19. But then I got old, and I really don't care for the kick given from such rounds for much any more ......
CFE223 sounds like a candidate for a nice little 120 grain round that will kick less and yet go quite a bit faster.
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A lot has changed since this thread was started six years ago. As far as the TTSX creating more pressure than the same weight C & C bullet, I think that has proven not to be true. This was true with the old original X bullet, but Barnes started cutting rings into the bearing surface of the newer TSX and the even newer TTSX to reduce the bearing surface in the bore. This move pretty much changed the occurrence of higher pressure. I have used the same load in all my 7mm-08’s with the 120 gr. Nosler BT and the TTSX for several years with no apparent changes in pressure or chronograph readings. If anything, the TTSX is slightly, and I emphasize slightly, slower than the BT with all else being equal. Oldfeller, welcome to the Campfire. Lots of good stuff on here!
If we live long enough, we all have regrets. But the ones that nag at us the most are the ones in which we know we had a choice.
Doug
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Joined: Nov 2005
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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just tried some CFE223 with the Barnes 120gr TTSX, got 1/2" grou ps @ 100 yards and got 3351, 3357, 3361fps out of a 22" barrel, think I'll switch my deer load.
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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just tried some CFE223 with the Barnes 120gr TTSX, got 1/2" grou ps @ 100 yards and got 3351, 3357, 3361fps out of a 22" barrel, think I'll switch my deer load. This is in a 7-08?
- Greg
Success is found at the intersection of planning, hard work, and stubbornness.
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Joined: Nov 2005
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Campfire Outfitter
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yes 7-08, I like the velocity spread
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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Any reason why are you trying to turn the .7-08 into a .280 Ackley?
- Greg
Success is found at the intersection of planning, hard work, and stubbornness.
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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Any reason why are you trying to turn the .7-08 into a .280 Ackley? My thoughts too. So if I use that powder in my 280 AI, it should run neck & neck with my 7 Wby.
"I never thought I'd live to see the day that a U.S. president would raise an army to invade his own country."
Robert E. Lee
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Joined: Nov 2005
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Campfire Outfitter
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Any reason why are you trying to turn the .7-08 into a .280 Ackley? My thoughts too. So if I use that powder in my 280 AI, it should run neck & neck with my 7 Wby. maybe a STW
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