Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters ELMER KEITHS 280 OKH RIFLE - SEEKING INFO

gaperry- Do you happen to know about where Elmer's ranch was in North Fork? I've been through there a lot of times and am curious. BTW, the $1.50 I've spent for showers at the North Fork campground is some of the best money I've ever spent after 4-5 days on the hill...

I've driven through North Fork and saw the campground you speak of, and visited Elmer's house and grave in Salmon, but I'm afraid I don't know where his ranch was. I met two elderly ladies at the county historical society who had known Elmer and remembered him wearing his hat, stogie, and sixgun as he walked to the post-office everyday, and that he had been a town constable. My understanding from them is that the origninal ranch house burned down long ago, but they were unable to give me directions. It would be a cool place to visit, especially if you could find his range backstop and dig up a few .44 Keith bullets.

The lady working the counter at the hotel where I stayed in Salmon had lived there all her life, and she had worked in the cafe that is now a Chinese restaurant. She said the cafe opened very early, and Elmer would come in about 4:00 a.m. and have a bowl of oatmeal or perhaps just a pot of tea as he read the day's newspaper. In his later years he liked to sit and talk to the regulars every morning. She said he was old-fashioned, but a real gentleman.

I also drove down the Salmon to where the Middle Forch branches off, and imagined where Elmer had testfired new Remington .45 ACP loads at a 200-yard rock that projected from the Middle Fork. That part of Idaho has to be one of the most beautiful places on Earth.

If you are ever in Shoup, the little place there has great hamburgers and milkshakes, as well as a photo album of all sorts of big game that local residents have taken near the Salmon. If you've hunted there, you might even be in it.

Out front there is an old-fashioned gas pump with the glass top that you fill with a hand pump and then empty into your gas tank with a gravity-flow hose. While I was there a local came in wanting to buy gas, and the woman proprietor was kind enough to let me pump it, since I was fascinated by how it worked. Without thinking, I asked her how long the pump had been there. She looked at me funny, then replied "Since they invented gasoline."

Very little has changed since ol' Elmer packed Zane Grey in and out of that Salmon River country in 1931.

Yep, I've been to that country. Very special part of the world indeed. Funny you mention the Middle Fork. Last time I was there was to take a raft out at the end of the road past Shoup at the end of a bighorn sheep hunt (buddy had the tag). A milkshake at Shoup was a great way to cap off the 10 days of "river rations".

Though I didn't get to make it there this year, I elk hunt a bit north of there and hope to make it back in a few years. It's big country and pretty empty still today. I can only imagine how it'd have been in 1931!

This year I visited a different part of Idaho, the Bruneau and Jabidge canyon country along the NV border. Except for the actual Wilderness along the Middle Fork, it's about as lonely a country as I've been to. Very different from that part of the state, but in some ways almost as cool. Now if I could just convince my wife a move to Salmon would be a worthy endeavor...

Hello Greg,

Yes, I hope so too. Sooner or later, someone will find something to help solidify the mystery of why Elmer had this rifle built and what experiments he conducted with it.



Hello Magnum Man,

I guess I never considered myself a real rifle loony, just a collector, and then mostly vintage revolvers; up until my interest turned to vintage rifles. I was always a fan of Elmer Keith, but considered him mostly a "Big Revolver Guy" and am a late bloomer finding out so much about his rifle moxy.

One of my very close friends, Walley P., who has since passed away, gave me this "Yankee" all-brass bullet mold that he got from Elmer Keith back in the 50's or 60's at one of the Western NRA Conventions. Over the years, Walley and Elmer shared a fondness for BIG Revolvers that fired BIG Bullets, and Elmer passed this unique mold on to his friend Walley, whao later passed it on to me. It casts a whoppin' 260g hollow-point, 45 cal. bullet. Pictures are pretty much self explanatory. This is another one of my real treasures.

Magnum Man, thanks for the information and the reference.

It seems that Keith's cloak was pretty effective, since it still works today.

The earliest I can find use of the 280 Dubiel was 1932 and his collaboration with O'Neil started with the aforementioned 22 and a 25 O'Neil in 1937.

Experiments with OKH nomenclatured round started in 1939, as did the duplex/ignition tube.

I was wrong about a few of my details from my earlier post. Elmer did have the Hoffman Magnum Mauser rebarreled by Dubiel in .280 Dubiel, and Elmer did use it on antelope for several years before selling it. According to one of his Gun Notes columns, he had ordered the .300 Hoffman in 1926 when Hoffman Arms Co. was closing its doors, and John Dubiel stuck around the shop to finish the job for Elmer. He later rebarreled it, as HawkI says, probably in '32.

I had confused that rifle with a later rifle that Charlie O'Neil made for Elmer a few years later. It was a single shot bull gun in .285 OKH. Youngberg swaged 173-grain .308 bullets down to .285, and Elmer shot a 6-inch group at 800 yards. Elmer later sold that .285 OKH to a wolf hunter. Once the .285 OKH was developed, Elmer sold his .280 Dubiel and never looked back. According to another GunNotes column, Elmer first mentioned the .285 OKH in AR in '38. So, my guess is buckstix's rifle was made between '32 and '38. Checking old issues from AR and other magazines Elmer wrote for during that time frame would probably be the best bet for a photo because it apparently was never in any of his books.

Hello gaperry59,

I imagine its possible there may have been many rifles that Elmer owned, and used for experimenting, that didn't appear in his books. Perhaps this rifle was more of a tool for testing different loads and different bullets for long range shooting. This rifle's 26-1/2" heavy bull barrel and beefy rubber recoil pad may support this possibility since they would seem somewhat out of place on a hunting rifle.

The second hand information that was handed down to me with the rifle tells that Elmer sold this rifle to a fellow gun crank in the late 1950's. I was told he said it was seldom fired since then, but when it was, it shot very, very well. I'm currently attempting to obtain a direct first-hand account from this man about the rifle.

Meantime, I continuing to search Internet .pdf's of old gun magazines trying to come up with other references to a 280 OHH.

Does anyone know of magazines other than "Guns", "American Rifleman", "True", and "Handloading" that contained any of Elmer's articles of columns?

Outdoor Life and Sports Afield, and he was gun editor for another magazine that went belly up, but I can't recall the name just now.

Yeah, Elmer wrote for "The Outdoors" magazine out of Colombus, Ohio and another called * The Outdoorsman" Denver? Give those a shot. Magnum Man

Didn't Elmer write a monthly column for Guns and Ammo, "Gun Notes by Elmer Keith," for several years about 1970?

He wrote the column from the 60's to the 80's. The complete columns were published in a two-volume set a few years ago by Safari Press. I have them, and went through both, never finding a mention of the .280 OKH.

I concur, plus I have most of those original period G&A magazines, with no mention of the 280 OKH. I even checked the Mullin publication "Letters".

The 285 on the '06 case is mentioned all over, as is the 280 Dubiel.

In Big Game Hinting, I would think if the cartridge had existed there would have been mention of it, as it was the second to next publication he did after his time at Ogden Arsenal and WWII(1948). Rifles for Large Game being in 1946.

The one prior to this period is Big Game Rifles and Cartridges, 1936, in which he goes in detail over the 280 Dubiel.

FWIW, Elmer had excellent grammar and spelling in his hand-written material......

Elmer was a very good shot, and in the "stats" part of one of the early 20's Rifleman mags, that I have, he came in 2nd to a Jarhead (gasp), in the 600 yd match. At that time you shot it every day for a few days. He'd been using a 1903 Springfield, with a ladder sight (which they used a micrometer to set),and probably GI Issued match ammo. He lost to the Marine by 1 V. For those who don't know, Elmer did NOT like Marines. He was a Sgt in the Idaho N.G., and in those days you have to be invited to the National Matches, based on your shooting for the past year. If anyone is interested they need to read the account of Mr. Farr. Mr Farr was an old farmer, who came to Perry to see if he could "clean" shoot a 100%, at a 1,000 yds. He was issued (they did that back then) a Springfield match rifle, and 40 or so rounds of ammo (there were two or three different match ammos at the time). When he had finished shoot, elated at having shot a clean, he was told he had to keep shooting, as the match was a shoot till you miss match. He ended up with 72 straight bulls eyes, then dropped one, coming in 2nd to a (aaaah) Marine, who was about 40 years younger than him and shooting a scoped rifle. Mr. Farr was 62, didn't wear glasses, and laid there for quite a while, as between shooting a shot, and it being scored, and running the target back up, etc., would take a minimum of about 2 minutes a shot. I've worked the LR matches at Perry and can guarantee you this is a minimum time. He finally "got tired" and with light fading, finally dropped one out of the black. There's a FARR trophy match shot these days at the Nationals. Indeed, it's probably one of the oldest trophies around.

Due to his shooting a specific kind (brand?) of match ammo, folks were running all over the place to get him more, as he shot. Everyone was so impressed, they bought the rifle, and donated it to him. I saw it and a target, at the NRA convention in Orlando.. If you get a chance, read the story. Just search Farr trophy and story.

Hello HawkI,

Thanks for your help.

I'm sure there may have been other experimental cartridges that Elmer tried that may not have been mentioned in his books. I've discovered references to 250 OKH, 265 OKH, 276 OKH, 280 OKH, 285 OKH, 300 OKH, 33 OKH, 333 OKH, 333 OKH BELTED, 334 OKH, 334 OKH MAGNUM, 350 OKH, 375 OKH 423 OKH, 426 OKH, 475 OKH, etc.

With the 2 specific references discovered so far for the 280 OKH,

(1)"Gun Notes: May 1960 issue of GUNS"
(2)"Practical Dope on Big Bores: by F.C. Ness, (1948 ed) page 191",

I've kept searching. And now I have also found this interesting reference,

(3)"Handloader Magazine, Nov-Dec 1966, OKH Cartridges, by Bob Hagel."

There is even a picture of the cartridge. This may be the ever elusive 280 OKH. ? ?



I'm sure with continued research, other reference will be discovered. I thank all of you in advance for your continued searching.

It would be interesting to see a chamber cast of your rifle. If I read your description correctly, you now have a 280-300 CCC rifle, presumably converted from a 280 OKH. Or is it the reverse?

Also, looking at various rifles pictured in Elmer's book, Elmer Keith's Big Game Hunting, several were stocked by a Mr. Frost. Does anyone know anything about this gentleman?

I intend to do a chamber cast as soon as the Cerrosafe I have on order arrives. I intend to cast the chamber and a portion of the throat and into the bore. That way I can get accurate measurements of the chamber, the throat, and the bore.

I recently discovered Donnelly's book; Cartridge Conversions, lists a "300-CCC" cartridge which might have been the parent cartridge for the 280-300-CCC chambering. The CCC designation (formerly known as PMVF) would imply about a 3/4" freebore at the throat.

Measuring the throat accurately, should determine which came first, the 280-300-CCC chambering or the 280 OKH chambering.

Very interesting.

Look forward to a definitive diagnosis.

DF

I assume the CCC chamber shoulder is Weatherby-like as well.

This was a great read..Dogzappers story of meeting Elmer was fantastic..what a lucky guy..congradulations..Your opinion of JOC matches my impression of the guy..

Buck, there was an article on the OKH cartridges in PERCISION SHOOTING sometime back..I am not sure the 280 OKH is mentioned, but they did discuss the line of rifles..O"Neil built these almost on a whim it seems to me..I am not sure Elmer tried all of them..As for the 280 OKH, I do not remember seeing this mentioned, but I wonder if it could simply be O'Niels version of the earlier round??? As I remember, O'Niel did the metal work, Elmer tested the rifles and Hopkins supplied the $..I think they also said, Hagel stocked many of the rifles..Hopkins took most of O'Neils things when they found the old gunsmith dead in his shop...Great information on a real piece of history..