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I've talked up my Kuiu gear in the past. One of the selling points (for me at least) has been that it is at least made in North America. Canada might not be the real America, but it's close.

Well, they are moving production to China.

http://blog.kuiu.com/2012/10/10/vertical-supply-chain/

Weak.

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I am not surprised, actually expected this from the outset of this brand. The initial production was here in Vancouver, BC and much "hype" was posted on the Kuiu site concerning how wonderful the Canadian manufacturers were and how great it is to be able to "test" this gear hunting wild sheep here in B.C. and the Canadian N.W.T.

I do NOT buy "China" and I just bought a pair of Wild Things pants made in the USA, I also will buy Westcomb clothing made here in Vancouver, which I find is the finest I have seen in over 50 years of active wearing of top end outdoor clothing. I also do NOT see that "made in Canada" is the same as "made in China" as one of Hairston's bloggers stated on the above link.....I kinda wonder, just how many Stone's rams are shot in China?

Whatever, from what I have seen, Kuiu is going the same route that Sitka went and there is far better gear made in Canada, the USA and Europe for me to buy.....as I have done and will continue to do. I would highly recommend Wild Things Tactical Light shell clothing in place of Kuiu and the pants I just received are simply superb.

Quality in China is superior,,,,well, whatever, I guess that guided "dude hunters" can fantasize about anything.

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Kute, we've disagreed in the past but on this subject, we are in 100% agreement. Shame on KUIU for moving their operations to China.


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They lost me, I understand, but they lost me as a customer.


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Build a customer base on quality made high priced clothing then send production overseas to make a higher profit. Not that I ever would buy anything from Kuiu but I will definitly not be now. Got to pay for all those fancy hunts he takes!

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Yeah, but I'm sure they will pass on a huge cost savings to the customer!

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I understand the whole "global economy" thing, and actually the "vertical supply chain" thing too. I probably wouldn't have reacted the same way had they started out with manufacturing in China, but I also wouldn't have thought as highly of them in the first place.

I don't begrudge a guy making money, and lots of it... and if someone chooses to spend that money on "fancy hunts", or Ferraris or f-ing monster trucks, I couldn't fault him for that.

I know that they have had lead-time and capacity issues with both the materials supplier and the manufacturing. It just hurts to see that work going to China....

I'd encourage any customers, potential customers, or "interested but haven't made the leap" folks to let Jason know what you think of the move at the link above.

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This is a major bummer. Love their stuff, matter of fact, I just received a pair of the Verde Attack pants in the mail yesterday, and have gaitors arriving on Friday. Sure wish the guy wouldn't have made such a big deal about N. America made when he started and I probably wouldn't care right now.


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I have done that and am going to continue to oppose the purchase of Chinese goods by Canadians in any way I can.

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Crap, just checked my new Verde Attack pants, and the tag does say Made in China. Never thought of checking that since until today they said everything was made in N. America. What a shame.

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Originally Posted by Huntr
Crap, just checked my new Verde Attack pants, and the tag does say Made in China. Never thought of checking that since until today they said everything was made in N. America. What a shame.


I'd be pissed about that.


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Been a Kuiu fan in the past. Not so much now. Made in North America still means something to me.

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This is one of the two roots of our problem and it dose not matter who you vote for no one wants to address the glodal economy issue. The job will always go to the lowest wage nation. If some one can pay a person in africa or asia two dollars a day why would they pay a person in the US 100 dollars a day to get the same item. Glodalization and legal coruption in government are the two biggest issues we face and no one we vote for will ever address the issues it is not in there best intrest to do so.

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I bet they will be right down the street from the xtra-tuf factory.


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Saw this coming with my dealings with the Sitka company. They drew me in as a dealer, then left me hanging.

I still wear what I've got, but once it wears out, I'm DONE.

Very frustrating. However, our discussion will lead to action, if you stick to principal when you can.

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Yeah, but I'm sure they will pass on a huge cost savings to the customer!


This!

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I'm disappointed in the decision. I liked the idea of high quality clothing manufactured by folks making a decent wage and working under decent conditions. I'll continue to wear what I have and enjoy it but doubt I'll buy more. I never had a problem with the lead times, etc. You just had to plan ahead and buy things as they became available or get or preorder lists. It makes me wonder about the guy's business ethics in that people were already unknowingly ordering/receiving the made in China gear before he came out and fessed up to the production change.

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Yup, you PAY a substantial price for an item(s) advertised as "Made in Canada", and you RECEIVE an item "made in China", with NO forewarning.

That, to me, is simply poor business ethics and not acceptable. Hairston, is free to have his products made wherever he chooses to, but, I will never buy anything from him under any circumstances.

I prefer the superb "Wild Things Tactical" gear to Kuiu and it is made in the USA.....works REAL well for hunting in BC, from my experience with it.

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I wanted to give this Kuiu stuff a shot but not if it's made in China. Might have to give that Crye stuff a shot afterall. Damn you Taylor! lol


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I can sympathize with the supply chain issues. I've learned first hand that off shore items aren't necessarily lower quality and aren't necessarily a cost saver. Also, it is easier with most things to get higher volumes off shore. On the flip side, I've also learned that even though it can be painful, it is possible to work with a domestic manufacturer to bring a product up to a high level of quality at an acceptable cost and channel some resources back into an economically blighted area of the country. May not be making a big difference, but I'm sure the 2 people who now are almost solely dedicated to making one of our products appreciate their jobs. I'm guessing it was a big deal to them when we were able to commit to the same level of production in month four when we were only planning on three months of production. God willing, we'll be able to commit to the same level of production for December (month five) and take those two people through Christmas with jobs they can count on. Flipping back to the other side of the equation, I don't have any idea how we'd be able to deal with unit purchase quantities on that product in a reasonable timeframe. Pick your poison. Remembering a snippet from a book I read long ago -- "choose only those paths with heart".

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Evan... I knew I liked you for a reason. Maybe you need to get ahold of some Canadian folks that just had their jobs outsourced and start a line of clothing smile

Seriously. The game we all play, and the gear we all buy, if a N America based company said "Damn... My costs keep going up but I refuse to outsource, and I AM IN THIS to make profit, my prices HAVE to go up 30%..." We'd all bitch about paying more for their product, but we'd sure as hell understand it. In the backpacking biz, solid products made by guys like us count for a whole hell of a lot more than hitting a certain pricepoint.

Too bad about KUIU. They won't see a penny out of me now. I guess I'm buying anohter set of Filson Whipcords to hunt in this year.


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How do you make money if you have no product to sell? This was part of KUIUs problem. By allowing Toray to take over from raw materials to assembly KUIU get's a little more attention and priority.

If they have product to sell, and continue to grow it would seem likely that he'll need accounting, marketing, legal, human resources, IT, and shipping assistance.

North American made didn't matter to me, Made in the USA does, but that's not feasible. I'd rather see KUIU continue to grow and have to hire more at Headquarters in the US, than go belly up to keep some Chinese immigrants employed in Canada.


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I just wanted ONE person to point out what hasn't yet been said on this thread, and I guess I'll be the one to do it, like I did on the same thread on AT.

Moving jobs to China is GOOD for us all.

Anytime we can get an equivalent product for less money, it frees up more money for us to spend on other job-creating pursuits. And moving factory-type unskilled labor to the third world allows Americans to focus on better jobs where we do have a global competitive advantage (not to mention it boosts a terrible economy in whatever third world locale). We want the people/country able to produce a quality product more efficiently to be the ones to produce that product. For the same reason that you don't solely support and buy camo that only your family members have made - there are others out there (US, China, wherever) that are better equipped to make a given product at a lesser cost. And in the end, WE ALL win. Everyone saves money, and everyone is able to work at a task/job/skill in which they excel and work more efficiently than others.

Granted, I too think it's great when an American company can produce a competitive product, but sometimes that doesn't happen, and that's OK. Now as to the issue of advertising "Made in North America" but shipping "Made in China," that's a different one that I'll stay out of.

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Its hard to judge what really is up with any company. Does anyone here now how profitable KUIU was before the manufacturing move? what was their ROI?

Its a competitive environment and they compete agianst larger companies that often manufacturer overseas. I hear a lot of judgement, but I doubt anyone really knows if they were making any profit before their move.


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"As most of you know, KUIU launched just last year and has exploded as a brand. The numbers I was hoping to do our 1st year were smashed by the 3rd month and it has not slowed down."

Sounds to me like he was doing pretty well for himself but him not having enough stock is his own fault. Since he was one of the co-founders of Sitka, you would think he would have had plenty of stock before he opened up for business.

His dishonesty in not telling people that he had already made the switch pissed off a lot of people and I can't say that I blame them. If I had ordered some gear from him thinking it was made in NA and the tag said "Made in China", I would have sent it all back.

He'll be fine but he'll also lose a lot of customers over the switch. I fully expect to see his line in Cabelas or some other big box store within the next 2 years.


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Then... UNION member pilots (ALPA) fly the Made in China products back to the U.S. of A.

How hypocritical is THAT?! LOL

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Since he was one of the co-founders of Sitka, you would think he would have had plenty of stock before he opened up for business.


Why would any business owner want to limit their liquidity as they are opening their doors? How many business miss forecasts by nine months? Seems logical now that he should have had more stock to begin with, but hindsight is 20/20. But, back to my first point. Many businesses fail due to undercapitalization, he dumps his cash into inventory and it sits on shelves...so does his cash.


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I am one of those who ordered the new Verde camo: pants, 185 Zip & Tee and beanie & neck gaiter, had the vest still on pre order, which I've canceled. Didn't think to look at the tags until yesterday, just assumed nothing had changed from my prior orders. This is the part that pisses me off, not the "Made in China" and but the calculated business decision to keep the change quite while shipping the new product. I believe really shows Jason's true ethics & integrity.

Too bad, I really like the product, but this has soured me a bit. But I do have enough of the "original" Kuiu to keep me going for a while.

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But, remember Verde was shipped 6 months early because the Vias supply was completely tapped. It's not unreasonable to think the accelerated timeline could have been a factor in the announcement or lack thereof.



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pka45: The issue I think is that we have all had experience with questionable goods made in China and Kuiu stating quality will improve sounds like a great sales pitch he heard at the manufacturing meeting he attended in Japan(why wasnt it in China?) but questionable in the experience of many with Chinese goods. The real motive is profit margin, but that wouldnt be politically correct.

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Not buying it, he put the Verde up for preorder Sept. 5th - over a month ago, he had plenty of time. That's what his blog is for.

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According to his comments below his blog post, the move to Chinese production (overseen by a Japanese company - interesting historical grist there) will not result in lower cost of goods -- but rather higher quality, quicker time to market, and more volume. The key factor there is probably more volume. You are backed up with orders, money just waiting to come through the door, all you have to do is be able to fill those orders and you can make it happen with a switch to a different manufacturer. I get it.

I've also heard (and made at certain points in my life) the line of reasoning put forth by pka45. That's what it is - a line of reasoning. Not fact, simply an opinion. It's up for debate, just like the idea that made in America is economically better is up for debate. I've sat on both sides of that fence more than once myself.

Just right now, I'm of the mind that if I have an opportunity to encourage economic development closer to home, that's what I'm inclined to do. Just like I'd rather eat locally sourced food if I can. It may cost a little more in dollars but presumably I'm buying more than just the product itself with those dollars.

The beautiful thing is that we're all free to vote with our dollars on the issue.

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Originally Posted by sollybug
pka45: The issue I think is that we have all had experience with questionable goods made in China and Kuiu stating quality will improve sounds like a great sales pitch he heard at the manufacturing meeting he attended in Japan(why wasnt it in China?) but questionable in the experience of many with Chinese goods. The real motive is profit margin, but that wouldnt be politically correct.


He did go to China, he said he visited the facility in Shanghai. He has said there is no change in cost to manufacture, just better yields, quality control and predictability of delivery. Even if that is not the case how much can he really increase his margin? And with a growing company how much does increased OpEx (expanded HQ employees) eat up of said margin.

People are greatly mistaken that just because you manufacture in China all of the sudden you're margins increase exponentially. There are far too many other components and variables at play.


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He knew earlier in the year that he was switching to a chinese manufacturer but didn't tell anyone until yesterday, how can you defend that?


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Everyone makes some valid points. You can manufacture in the US but it is much more difficult. The US just is not set up to manufacture anymore for a lot of items. Sure some stuff you can do but a lot is much easier to do elsewhere.

Then there is the cost factor and availability. You can't sell what you don't have. I would love to see a large scale consumer study of two identical products, one made overseas, in stock and 20 percent less in price. I bet I know which one most consumers will choose.


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I think as a business owner in the midst of a tough decision such as that there is no right answer (when to tell your customers). You know there is going to be backlash, but how do you best temper it? I don't know. If I had to guess, he made the decision to wait until the product flow was up and running.

All summer guys were bitchin' about being out of stock or late preorders. Being a decision maker means you have to take the good with the bad, I guess this is why there are Degrees in Corporate Communications and the when, where and how to communicate is a challenge.


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I know I start with trying to keep business close and then moving outward looking for contractors or product. We commonly here two complaints from customers, lead times and pricing. It is what it is in our current model. We have looked at doing a less expensive line but the only way it gets much lower is to hand it to someone overseas. That is the fact. We don't necessarily mean china we have looked at other avenues we feel are more altruistic , but the effort is much higher on our part since we would need to source and do all sorts of stuff. It's so much harder to do it on your own in the US. Thats the facts.


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Originally Posted by jryoung

He did go to China, he said he visited the facility in Shanghai. He has said there is no change in cost to manufacture, just better yields, quality control and predictability of delivery. Even if that is not the case how much can he really increase his margin? And with a growing company how much does increased OpEx (expanded HQ employees) eat up of said margin.

People are greatly mistaken that just because you manufacture in China all of the sudden you're margins increase exponentially. There are far too many other components and variables at play.


He takes investment capital to Shanghai and gets a better YIELD, you say. Okay, then he will get more garments at the same margin per garment for his investment. Then he sells more garments due to yield being greater and makes more for his original investment.

Profitability as percentage of investment increased. Therefore, profit margin increased above and beyond shipping and customs tariff expenditures, which were not present when manufacturing was in North America.

Translation: You get alot more for your dollar when you manufacture in China, due to cheaper raw goods and labor.

No charge for this lesson. ;-]]

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Duties are roughly 30% out of China, doubtful yield will cover that.

But I agree you do get more for your dollar. So he could have increased his expenses and cash outlay to try fix his gaps in inventory or pay approximately the same amount for more services, shorted lead time, and more predictable cash flow.







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Originally Posted by pka45
I just wanted ONE person to point out what hasn't yet been said on this thread, and I guess I'll be the one to do it, like I did on the same thread on AT.

Moving jobs to China is GOOD for us all.

Anytime we can get an equivalent product for less money, it frees up more money for us to spend on other job-creating pursuits. And moving factory-type unskilled labor to the third world allows Americans to focus on better jobs where we do have a global competitive advantage (not to mention it boosts a terrible economy in whatever third world locale). We want the people/country able to produce a quality product more efficiently to be the ones to produce that product. For the same reason that you don't solely support and buy camo that only your family members have made - there are others out there (US, China, wherever) that are better equipped to make a given product at a lesser cost. And in the end, WE ALL win. Everyone saves money, and everyone is able to work at a task/job/skill in which they excel and work more efficiently than others.

Granted, I too think it's great when an American company can produce a competitive product, but sometimes that doesn't happen, and that's OK. Now as to the issue of advertising "Made in North America" but shipping "Made in China," that's a different one that I'll stay out of.


You learned nothing from the ratification of the North American Free Trade Agreement, evidently.

The model you describe only converts U.S. taxpayers into welfare recipients and increases the quality of life of the foreign worker.

And just because Sitka or Kuiu is produced in China does not mean that it will be cheaper PRICED. I looked at a Sitka top the other day that was $329.oo at a big box store. When they were in their first year of production, that same top was $190.

I say where we screwed up was when Mom thought she was too good to work a sewing job anymore. Or some UNION convinced her she should make a "living wage" at that sewing job.

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Nearing retirement and having the benefit of a lifetime of working in manufacturing on a management level, I can tell you that it is a rare industry where US and Canadian manufaturers cannot compete profitably.

There is a secret though - you have to be competent and willing to look in the mirror for the source of your problems. There are a number of shopworn and frankly BS scapegoats that are thrown out by incompetent manufacturers ... government regulation, environmental regulation, unfair foreign business practices, etc, etc ad nauseum. The truth is that to succeed today you have to be good - really good. Learn to listen to your customer and take responsibility for your own success or failure - todays consumer has no time or inclination to listen to you whine about why you can't fill their needs - they want someone to solve their problems and help them succeed.

And yes, if you talk the talk about wanting access to quality domestically produced product, than be willing to pay for it. There ain't no free lunch.

Rant over.

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No. Increased yield filled his inventory gap, which was his problem to start with.

And trust me. The duties are more than covered by the increase in profit. Otherwise it's all a mute point.

I've done business in Hong Kong, so just trust me on this. You show them a prototype and they'll produce it for 20% of your original production cost.

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You think Tamoda was hacking up fabric so bad that it caused an inventory shortage? He was six months soit for inventory, that is not going to be made up by yields.

What type of products are you referring to in regards to the 20% of costs?


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I wish it was still made in North America, but waiting 6 months for the gear is a pain. Having the ability to get gear when / if I want it, works for me. I still have a choice and lucky for us hunters there are lots of options out there.

The real problem lies within the US itself. Unions, greed, our overwhelming debt (both personal and governmental) makes it tough to do business here. Hard to find folks willing to work for what it take to remain competitive.

I truly hope quality is maintained, the brand is not sold, and prices don't go up. The reason Sitka prices went up is because they became so popular and folks just kept right on buying! If KUIU prices go up, there is room for someone to take Jason's model, tweak it, and step in and fill the need at a competitive price.

Heck lots of businesses out there a guy can watch and learn from. Sure wish I had the capital to give it a go! : )

Anyone want a pair of $89 quality, quick drying, durable cargo pants w/ slots for knee pads in mountain gray? (Camo pattern under development) To be fair they won't be made in America at that price.. : )

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Originally Posted by evanhill
According to his comments below his blog post, the move to Chinese production (overseen by a Japanese company - interesting historical grist there) will not result in lower cost of goods -- but rather higher quality, quicker time to market, and more volume. The key factor there is probably more volume. You are backed up with orders, money just waiting to come through the door, all you have to do is be able to fill those orders and you can make it happen with a switch to a different manufacturer. I get it.

I've also heard (and made at certain points in my life) the line of reasoning put forth by pka45. That's what it is - a line of reasoning. Not fact, simply an opinion. It's up for debate, just like the idea that made in America is economically better is up for debate. I've sat on both sides of that fence more than once myself.

Just right now, I'm of the mind that if I have an opportunity to encourage economic development closer to home, that's what I'm inclined to do. Just like I'd rather eat locally sourced food if I can. It may cost a little more in dollars but presumably I'm buying more than just the product itself with those dollars.

The beautiful thing is that we're all free to vote with our dollars on the issue.


Evan - how refreshing to see an internet discussion involving a disagreement handled in a respectful manner. Thanks.

Originally Posted by MarcTaylor
You learned nothing from the ratification of the North American Free Trade Agreement, evidently.

The model you describe only converts U.S. taxpayers into welfare recipients and increases the quality of life of the foreign worker.

And just because Sitka or Kuiu is produced in China does not mean that it will be cheaper PRICED. I looked at a Sitka top the other day that was $329.oo at a big box store. When they were in their first year of production, that same top was $190.

I say where we screwed up was when Mom thought she was too good to work a sewing job anymore. Or some UNION convinced her she should make a "living wage" at that sewing job.


Marc - I think that your opinion that free trade turns citizens into welfare recipients is short-sighted, but I also think that it's an opinion that will not be convinced otherwise. Much like my opinion that less government intrusion into my (or anyone's) life is generally a good thing for all. Guess that's where we differ.

I think that moving production overseas does result in "cheaper prices" - or at least prices that don't rise as much/as quickly. Why else would a business move overseas? In a rare case and for a short time without competition, a business may be able to pocket the difference, but with competition, that's unsustainable (isn't the free market a beautiful thing?). I do agree with you on the union issue though. I just wasn't going to bring it up, ha. (Isn't it amazing that non-union car companies in the US didn't have any financial issues? OK, I've probably said too much...)

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I just don't like to feed the commies period! Rather have my US dollars go elsewhere so after reading this post I will buy either stony glacier or kifaru ultralight pack. I really like the KUIU but...

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I have never owned any of Kuiu's gear, I did go online several times to purchase a Spindrift jacket, but they were always out of stock...

It seems like most companies move their production to China to be able to compete, but Kuiu seemed to have no trouble competing in the small market of high end technical, hunting specific clothes.

The fact that Kuiu was so successful makes it hard for me to believe that the change in manufacturing was made for any other reason besides growth, and as a business move maybe that will be a wise move. Time will tell.

I think there is definitely a market for hunting specific clothing made in the USA/Canada. Wouldn't surprise me to see someone taking that plunge soon.

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I agree and have already spoken with a highend Vancouver, BC outdoor clothing manufacturer about this issue. They now produce the BEST shell jackets, etc. that I have ever seen or worn in the BC mountains and would be the ideal outfit to make clothing for hunting BC's sheep.

I will and have always paid higher prices to "buy Canadian" and some superb gear is made here; I also will and usually do pay more to "buy American", although I consider NAFTA a total sellout to corporate interests and a bad deal for all working North Americans.

I have never purchased an item of Sitka, won't buy Kuiu and have spent many thousands on MR, Kifaru, WM, MM and other North American gear. I fully intend to buy more Wild Things Tactical clothing, am most impressed by the WT light softshell pants I just got from "High Caliber Gear" of Montana and I buy Canadian and European and American footwear.......

I am NOT going to assist the Chinamen to take over the world as they are doing by sneaky economic means, nor, do I support selling them one drop of Canadian crude oil to fuel the "blue water" nave they are currently building.

Buy North American, then European-----works for me!

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I hope they know what they are doing.. in this internet age, word spreads very fast of bad products. They are really rolling the dice by going to China.

I'm thinking of Xtra-Tuff boots in particular. Took Alaskans no time at all to stop buying the product, after they sent operations to china and quality wasn't up to the abuse Alaskans gave their product. They ended up having to recall the the boots made in China, after a big article in ADN that would have killed them. I'm sure they lost a bundle..

BTW, I'm too damn cheap to buy Kuiu..

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If we all let our pocketbook do the talking, the market will respond.

Great debate here. No one acting like a sitting V.P.

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Originally Posted by MarcTaylor
If we all let our pocketbook do the talking, the market will respond.

Great debate here. No one acting like a sitting V.P.


I agree wholeheartedly!

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Originally Posted by pka45
And moving factory-type unskilled labor to the third world allows Americans to focus on better jobs where we do have a global competitive advantage.


Moving unskilled factory labor offshore means that our below-average urban citizens are cut off from the only work that they are capable of doing. "Better jobs", whatever you mean by that, are not available to them because they can't be trained.

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WE ALL win. Everyone saves money, and everyone is able to work at a task/job/skill in which they excel and work more efficiently than others.


No, we don't all win. Some Americans will never excel and work more efficiently than others. It is in the nature of being below average. (Half the American population, if we're being honest.)

We can let them starve, or we can support them on welfare, or we can get them their unskilled jobs back. But that's about it.

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Hi Tom,

I'm sure we would both agree on some of the problem being that we've incentivized NOT working and living off the government. And while your other thoughts seem logical and even noble, I disagree. Here, check out Stossel's reasoning, as he makes these points much better than I:

http://reason.com/archives/2012/08/01/myths-we-live-by

The bottom line is that saving the consumer money by outsourcing gives us more money to spend and invest. This creates jobs and wealth, and we are better off as a whole. There will always be jobs for the less skilled/intelligent - at McDonalds, or Walmart, or the like. I just wonder if there will be the labor force to work those jobs when they could do just as well NOT working!

Pete


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From the sounds of things... the price isn't getting any cheaper, AND

What frosts my manberries is that Eric decided to go out of country, and not tell customers waiting. They paid money for gear made on this continent.

That's the big deal breaker for me...


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Originally Posted by pka45
I'm sure we would both agree on some of the problem being that we've incentivized NOT working and living off the government. ... There will always be jobs for the less skilled/intelligent - at McDonalds, or Walmart, or the like. I just wonder if there will be the labor force to work those jobs when they could do just as well NOT working!


Pete:

Suppose my dream comes true this November and it results in all or at least most of those deadbeats being thrown off the dole.

Now suppose all those deadbeats get off their azzes and get jobs at McDonalds and Walmart.

How many hamburgers do you suppose I can eat, while trying to keep them gainfully employed? And I'm about maxed out now on the money I spend at Walmart.

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Originally Posted by tjm10025
Suppose my dream comes true this November and it results in all or at least most of those deadbeats being thrown off the dole.


I thought I was the only one who dreamt about that? Ha...

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Since when did sewing skills become unskilled factory labor?

Try making an jacket or pants and then report back on how easy it went.!

Just because the poorest and weakest, such as women and children are exploited into working for pennies under sweatshop conditions doesn't mean they don't have skills, intelligence, or even dreams and aspirations.

We need to respect the speed and effort our fellow humans put out to produce our clothing and put food on our tables.

I personally don't like "made in china" products and will buy local if at all possible. At the same time I feel an great deal of respect for the workers in factories and in the worlds farm fields that nourish us. Their skill and hard work is under appreciated and taken for granted.

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I agreed and it is worse with yellow skin commies. I am an asian myself. Lets say if we have a role reversal there is no way in Hll those asian countries would accept white, blacks, hispanics, and etc as refugee or legal immigrants as the US/ Canada have for so long. Chinese government and the Taliban's are no different. They both hate the USA but the only slight difference is the Chinese want to take over the world with deceiving business practices. Vietnam, Cambo, and Laos are China's bitches so don't be to happy buying products made from those countries either. CEO who contributes to the commies financial growth should be strip out of US citizenship and be sent to that country.

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Originally Posted by yurotrash
I agreed and it is worse with yellow skin commies. I am an asian myself. Lets say if we have a role reversal there is no way in [email protected] those asian countries would accept white, blacks, hispanics, and etc as refugee or legal immigrants as the US/ Canada have for so long. Chinese government and the Taliban's are no different. They both hate the USA but the only slight difference is the Chinese want to take over the world with deceiving business practices. Vietnam, Cambo, and Laos are China's bitches so don't be to happy buying products made from those countries either. CEO who contributes to the commies financial growth should be strip out of US citizenship and be sent to that country.


Where's the LIKE button?!

Right on.

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Speaking from personal experience, I couldn't disagree more about outsourcing leading to Americans having more money to spend and invest. I've worked with many Japanese and Chinese companies, as well as European and South American companies. I know how the Global Economy is supposed to work, but it only works that way for certain people...

My last job was analyzing and implementing an offshore transfer of a product assembled in the USA to China. My analysis showed that within 5 years of transfer that total landed cost would be a wash, due to the upward trends of labor costs in China and in shipping and logistics. The company went ahead with the transfer anyway. I did my job too well, and ended up unemployed for almost 2 1/2 years, along with many of the other people I worked with. I had to cash in most of my investments while unemployed, not to maintain the standard of living I had when I was working, but to keep a roof over our heads and food on our table. I'm now working again, at another company, for 2/3 of the salary I was making before. I have less money to spend and invest, less benefits due to loss of years with the company, and 1/3 of the vacation time to spend what I do have, not to mention the loss of time I have to be with my family.

Last month I talked with a friend that still works for the company. He told me I was right, and that they were in the process of bringing products back to the USA. Due to the expense of both transfers the products will end up losing more money than if they'd stayed the course in the USA. You'd think that that would have given me some small measure of satisfaction, but it didn't; just gave me a hollow feeling...

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China only makes 5% on manufacturing, probably even less on textiles, if a company can grow say 15-20% annually in the US by manufacturing there is it worth it for that growth? What about 25-30% growth? (Playing devils advocates here a bit).


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A good friend on mine goes to China for 1 week out of 4-5, he works in electronics and buys component parts, we were talking about cost and pricing and the trend that he is seeing is that with the cost of shipping (fuel) etc, and the unrest that the workers have about low wages and the information that they can obtain via the internet he believes that the market disparity will contract dramatically within the next 5 years, he is in the process of looking for a UK supplier/manufacturer of UK made component parts, the strategy being that they can market their product as "made in England".

You only have to see what has been happening at the plant that Apple use to make the Iphone/Ipad etc, to see that things are changing.


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That is certainly an interesting and hope-enhancing post, Dave and I would love to see the "old" quality of British manufacture of so many goods return.

An example, was the old merino woolens, such as "Mellofleece" long underwear, the best I have ever used. We would buy this in the '60s and into the late '70s, my last set wore until about four years ago and was warmer than any currently available merino base layers I have....several highend brands.

Mellofleece, under a down duvet was all one required to keep comfortable down to -20*F and with a sweater added, plus heavy woolen pants, I have been good to snowshoe all day at -40. I would LOVE to be able to "Buy British", again!

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I don't get why companies like Mellofleece (or KUIU for that matter) can't manufacture a premium level product in their home country, and make a profit.

I've never been one to live a "secret life" and hide behind a keyboard. I'm a real human, with a real job.

I work in a plywood mill in NW Montana. I've been at that job a lot of years. I'm good at it, and am a 2nd string "lead" in my department. I'm a company man when I'm on the clock, and a serious [bleep] off when I'm not.

It's no secret that the housing market took a huge hit 4 years ago, and housing starts pretty much dissapeared. We laid off about a quarter of our workforce, when several other mills completely folded. What kept us alive (and in fact we were making the stock holders money within 18 months) was that we had forward thinking management that chased after niche market panels that were immune to the "commoditization" of the wood industry. For this to work, it took the employees to be on board with it... How does a company do that? Easy, you take your key employees in your key areas, and give them an "incentive pay" based on exceeding a targeted footage, and take rejects right off the top of that bonus. The guys making incentive make decisions on the fly that impact the company financially without lots of bullshit or red tape. Guys not making incentive are busting their ass and realize they're paying their dues. Guys that just show up hoping they can slack ass and make a good wage riding others shirt-tails usually find that their life is hell and all their co-workers [bleep] on them and quit (much more effective than having to deal with it from a management perspective in a litigous society these days) Guys like me?? I'm the [bleep] that provides the "tune-ups" to guys on my crew when needed. And then we drink beer in the parking lot after shift and we're all buddies again.

Bottom line... America needs to get back to 1950's logic. Both companies AND employees. We've turned into a country of "what's in it for me's" and slackers that suffer from a chronic lack of ass whipin's. Companies need to pay their employees in a fashion that fosters productivity, and employees need to bust ass in a fashion that makes their company money in a fashion that is safe and efficient.

Bitch less, do more, and make a fair wage. That's what America needs. Guys like me that work in a business that contributes to this countries GDP are way to few. And we wonder why China owns us and gas is approaching 4 bucks a gallon...


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Well put, Dan. People who work and produce real product carry the rest of the the country on their backs. Problem is, there are fewer carriers and more getting carried. GD

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Originally Posted by kcnboise
Speaking from personal experience, I couldn't disagree more about outsourcing leading to Americans having more money to spend and invest. I've worked with many Japanese and Chinese companies, as well as European and South American companies. I know how the Global Economy is supposed to work, but it only works that way for certain people...

My last job was analyzing and implementing an offshore transfer of a product assembled in the USA to China. My analysis showed that within 5 years of transfer that total landed cost would be a wash, due to the upward trends of labor costs in China and in shipping and logistics. The company went ahead with the transfer anyway. I did my job too well, and ended up unemployed for almost 2 1/2 years, along with many of the other people I worked with. I had to cash in most of my investments while unemployed, not to maintain the standard of living I had when I was working, but to keep a roof over our heads and food on our table. I'm now working again, at another company, for 2/3 of the salary I was making before. I have less money to spend and invest, less benefits due to loss of years with the company, and 1/3 of the vacation time to spend what I do have, not to mention the loss of time I have to be with my family.

Last month I talked with a friend that still works for the company. He told me I was right, and that they were in the process of bringing products back to the USA. Due to the expense of both transfers the products will end up losing more money than if they'd stayed the course in the USA. You'd think that that would have given me some small measure of satisfaction, but it didn't; just gave me a hollow feeling...


Please no one ignore this post. He lived it.

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I am educated but simple. I am not educated on any aspect of economics or sociology.

Simply put.......ANYBODY but the Chinese! Please. Was a loyal KUIU guy from the start. Enjoyed telling people I met it was a US company with Canadian manufacturing. I am done.

If its schitty or not, I do NOT wish success or fortune for Jason. Like a 5 year old who runs away for an hour thinking they will "hurt" their parents thinking "You'll miss me when I am gone".......I hope those of us who stop buying makes an impact on his business. If only for the fact of getting it across that. Some people are still Proud of America or at least have some type of Spine if nothing else. Always quicker to give my bucks to Canada, UK, NZ or anywhere but China.

Rather buy Montana plywood and burn it rather than Chinese schitt and use it. Sorry. But maybe I am to stupid to understand the whole problem?

Dan, maybe you need to work for Evan and you both can kick off a major change in the outdoor gear world? I already enjoy HPG stuff, we just need more items and clothing now.


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65K a year and bennies and I'd do just about anything thats legal.

Jesse, I agree that it's easier to do business with outsourced products when the people making them live in a place with a similar standard of living. At the risk of sounding racist, this isn't the case with oriental companies.


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Amen, Dan.


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Originally Posted by Higbean
Originally Posted by Huntr
Crap, just checked my new Verde Attack pants, and the tag does say Made in China. Never thought of checking that since until today they said everything was made in N. America. What a shame.


I'd be pissed about that.
I'm sure they passed on the savings, right?


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They better offer lifetime warranty on their gear now.

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[quote=bearstalker][/quote]


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I was thinking about this this morning and another aspect occured to me. When I'm designing our products, I pattern them myself from scratch -- either on rolls of newsprint or graph paper that I scale to the fabric. Then I make the prototypes myself and we test the prototypes. When our OEM production facility in Missouri gets a new product, they get all of my patterns and the prototype. The only real differences between my prototypes and final production are due to the fact that I don't have a bartacker or edge binder like the factory does.

One of the main reasons we're not in the garment business is that I don't have the chops to pattern something to go around the human body. I could certainly work with a clothing designer to get the cut and features that we think are important in a garment, but they'd be doing the hard work of taking an idea and making it work in the real world.

How that ties in with Kuiu is that I started wondering if Kuiu's founder is patterning his own clothing or working with clothing designers to translate his vision into reality. I know that the guys in Vancouver have that facility because Arcteryx mentioned it to us when they recommended that shop to use for production of our garment like product. Then I started wondering if the Vancouver shop had done design work for Kuiu as a loss leader on the way to building what they expected to be a long and mutually profitable relationship, only to see that design get awarded to another factory.

To be clear, this is all completely uninformed musing -- but it does go to show just how complex and interdependent the relationship between a design and sell shop and their manufacturing partner can be. I am truly thankful for our manufacturing partner every time I think of them, and I hope they appreciate the business we've given them since literally before their company was up and running.

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If you build it, they will come...


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Dan, that's no schitt. I am glad there are a handful of people that still-at least PREFER- to Buy American. It's only opinion, but I feelif more US made garments and products were available, more would buy them....and I dare say quality secondary in importance. Lots of guysike myself pissed off on the KUIU thread. But many forgive and forget so easily. I don't get people today???

You lie to me, cross me for valid reasons, or shoot my dog.....you'd better watch your azz for a LONG time. I don't kiss and make up in 30 minutes. And these are qualities I feel are admirable not undesirable.....most however, do not.


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Made in Montana-

http://www.outaware.com/

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Outstanding!!! That company is EXACTLY what I have been looking for as I need to replace some badly worn clothing items, made in Canada, the USA and the UK, that I bought years ago.

I really like his reinforced travel pants and the Couloir Bibs as well as his whole approach to manufacturing and wilderness conservation. I WILL be ordering from him and the bibs are going to be my Christmas present to myself.

I WILL buy from our friends in the US, UK, and Scandanavian-German nations as well as "OZ" and "KIWI" and NOT from the Chinamen, even if it DOES cost more.

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After reading most of the posts, one thing is clear. Most of the posters are not manufacturers or retailers. The minute I hear terms like "fair" or "good living" wage and "reasonable" profit, I'm turned off because this is the thinking of the left. Unless interfered with by the government, the market will set the value of everything. People espousing "Buy American" have no problem with us exporting to other countries, thereby taking jobs (existing or potential) from their citizens. We have never lost any jobs to another country, we simply gave them away by being noncompetitive for what ever reason. The reasons we are noncompetitive are too many to argue hear, so I'm going to talk China. The United States has a long history of discrimination to and distrust of Asians in general. Again, too much to discuss here. The basic reason for China's success is the work ethic of the Chinese people. You can find Chinese immigrants in every corner of the world, and weather brought there as "cheap" labor or got there on their own, as a group they became successful productive members of society. As a group, nobody works harder than the Chinese. Just read about the building of the transcontinental railroad. Weather in an ISO 9001 factory in China or a "sweat shop" in "China Town", you won't see workers just standing around. How many Chinese do you see on welfare? The only reason Chinese drop out of school is to GET A JOB. And when they get that job or start a business, they will work as many hours as necessary. I say China is succeeding because of their "Gung Ho" attitude. They are not doing well because they are a Communist Dictatorship, they are doing well inspite of it. God help us if the Chinese ever become a true capitalist nation. Nobody can out produce the United States when we put our backs into it. Our production and will won WWII. We did what ever it took to win because failure wasn't an option. We must apply that same WWII will to win to our economic problems. Until we get off our lazy asses and get back to a pro-business government government, we will continue our decline. We must quit blaming others for our problems and solve them ourselves. We sacrificing our long term well being for temporary comfort, just as all the great societies before us did.

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The Canadian Pacific Railroad did have some Chinese "coolies"among the labourers who built it and they actually built about 6.5 % of the total. The FACTS of North American history are and have long been distorted to serve the interests of the wealthy and this is merely one of the errors in the above rant.

The Chinamen, who have come to Canada, in hordes, since the idiotic changes to our immigration laws circa 1967, CONSTANTLY lobby for and receive large, TAX funded GRANTS for their cultural associations, as do other Asian immigrant groups. The FACTS can be checked on the C.I.C. website as well as on several others and these grants ARE ...welfare...

The Chinamen, DO NOT have a superior work or any other ethic to we white, native North Americans, however, the brutal sweatshop conditions of that COMMUNIST, TOTALITARIAN and murderous national regime make lower retail prices HERE available to those for whom price is paramount.

I could go on, with a FACTUAL rebuttal of other erroneous aspects of the foregoing, but, I have to take my wife for her walk to strengthen her back, after her spinal surgery. I will just add that I WAS a retail owner, manager of another retail business and have worked with many Asians.....and, they ARE NOT in ANY respect superior workers to anyone.

BUY NORTH AMERICAN!!!

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Originally Posted by timbo762
After reading most of the posts, one thing is clear. Most of the posters are not manufacturers or retailers. The minute I hear terms like "fair" or "good living" wage and "reasonable" profit, I'm turned off because this is the thinking of the left. Unless interfered with by the government, the market will set the value of everything. People espousing "Buy American" have no problem with us exporting to other countries, thereby taking jobs (existing or potential) from their citizens. We have never lost any jobs to another country, we simply gave them away by being noncompetitive for what ever reason. The reasons we are noncompetitive are too many to argue hear, so I'm going to talk China. The United States has a long history of discrimination to and distrust of Asians in general. Again, too much to discuss here. The basic reason for China's success is the work ethic of the Chinese people. You can find Chinese immigrants in every corner of the world, and weather brought there as "cheap" labor or got there on their own, as a group they became successful productive members of society. As a group, nobody works harder than the Chinese. Just read about the building of the transcontinental railroad. Weather in an ISO 9001 factory in China or a "sweat shop" in "China Town", you won't see workers just standing around. How many Chinese do you see on welfare? The only reason Chinese drop out of school is to GET A JOB. And when they get that job or start a business, they will work as many hours as necessary. I say China is succeeding because of their "Gung Ho" attitude. They are not doing well because they are a Communist Dictatorship, they are doing well inspite of it. God help us if the Chinese ever become a true capitalist nation. Nobody can out produce the United States when we put our backs into it. Our production and will won WWII. We did what ever it took to win because failure wasn't an option. We must apply that same WWII will to win to our economic problems. Until we get off our lazy asses and get back to a pro-business government government, we will continue our decline. We must quit blaming others for our problems and solve them ourselves. We sacrificing our long term well being for temporary comfort, just as all the great societies before us did.


I disagree.....

'Forced to stand for 24 hours, suicide nets, toxin exposure and explosions': Inside the Chinese factories making iPads for Apple

'Working excessive overtime without a single day off during the week'
'Living together in crowded dorms and exposure to dangerous chemicals'
Two explosions in 2011 in China 'due to aluminum dust' killed four workers
Almost 140 injured after using toxin in factory, reports New York Times




By Mark Duell
UPDATED:03:10 EST, 27 January 2012

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Working excessive overtime without a single day off during the week, living together in crowded dormitories and standing so long that their legs swell and they can hardly walk after a 24-hour shift.

These are the lives some employees claim they live at Appleĺs manufacturing centres in China, where the firmĺs suppliers allegedly wrongly dispose of hazardous waste and produce improper records.

Almost 140 workers at a supplier in China were injured two years ago using a poisonous chemical to clean iPhone screens - and two explosions last year killed four people while injuring more than 75.


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...actories-making-iPads.html#ixzz29rvgitWe
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´┐ŻPoliticians are the lowest form of life on earth. Liberal Democrats are the lowest form of politician.´┐Ż ´┐ŻGeneral George S. Patton, Jr.

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You are missing my point entirely. First, I know very little about the building of the Canadian Pacific Railroad and nothing about the quality of their "coolies" I do, however know about the quality of the "coolies" used by the Central Pacific Railroad. They laid track through the Sierra Nevada Mountains, and the death toll among them was a national scandal. That's were the saying "doesn't have a Chinaman's chance" comes from. Still, THEY GOT THE JOB DONE. As the tracks got closer, the presidents of the Central Pacific and the Union Pacific made a bet as to who's men could lay the most track in one shift. Inspite of their inferiority as workers the Central Pacific's "coolies" beat the Union Pacific's "micks" and set a record for "hand laid track" (10 miles) that still stands to this day. So much for history. Red China is NOT a workers paradise as most liberals would have you believe and I do not advocate we copy their society. The fact remains though they get the job done no matter what it takes to do it. That they could duplicate The Great Wall today if they wanted to and we can't build a new refinery no matter how much we need it says it all. Over sixty lives were lost building the Hover Dam. A construction project that cost that many lives today would never get completed. Much of what we use in our modern lives is very toxic to produce, and our "not in my back yard" mentality forces overseas manufacturing. China is not so stupid as to refine food into fuel. We waste our money on expensive "Green Energy" and sell our coal to China. We have enough fossil fuel to last 200 years but our government won't let us use it, while our welfare recipients live better than the middle class of most countries. China IS our enemy and their only goal is to beat us. And until we have the guts to "nuke 'em til the glow" we have to do what ever it takes to beat them economically. And we can't beat them by worrying about their working conditions, environmental problems, and relying on them to buy our debt. This is not a game and worrying about fairness and playing by the rules will not make us winners. If we are to prevail, it's going to be tough. Both of our sworn enemies, Red China economically and Islam culturally, are in it for the long haul and have said so many times. They aim to win, and don't care how they do it. And please, don't even get me started about (or aboot for my Canadian friends) India.

Last edited by timbo762; 10/20/12.

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Well, we agree on some aspects of your comments, I loathe China, India and hate Islam, with a passion and DO NOT buy from them.

REAL environmental concerns DO NOT damage sound economic situations and, one aspect of this is that Americans, by the thousands, come to BC to hunt the game largely extirpated in your own country.

That said,the "Yellow Peril" is taking over here and we cannot "afford" sufficient Conservation Officers, but, can subsidize Chinamen to attend and clog our tax-funded public schools. We also give them these grants and so on, the problem is much the same on both sides of the 49th........

"Racist"....NO, it's SUTVIVAL!

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Originally Posted by HUNTS
Made in Montana-

http://www.outaware.com/


Thanks for posting this. I was unaware of them.


Retired cat herder.


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Originally Posted by timbo762
Inspite of their inferiority as workers the Central Pacific's "coolies" beat the Union Pacific's "micks" and set a record for "hand laid track" (10 miles) that still stands to this day. So much for history.


Do you want to take a guess at how many deaths were suffered from passengers on chinese track versus Mick track? Mostly by means of derailment or ties up-ending through cars.

I'll give you a hint, there are still sections of Mick track in use (albeit its a "short line")

Therein lies the major philosophical difference between the two countries manufacturing capabilities. Communist; go like hell make lots. American; go like hell, make as much as you can while still maintaining a culturally accpetable level of quality.

And yes, I have railroad DNA all the way back to the days of NINA. If I decided to be a Rail like my dad, grand-dad, etc... I'd be 5th generation


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Oh, and I'm in the process of putting my money where my mouth is...

My long lived in Smartwool TML Light is going to get replaced by an Ibex Shak jersey, and my Smarwool henley will get replaced by an Ibex Woolie 150

The money I was GOING to spend on KUIU attack pants got spent on Filson Whipcords (my 3rd pair in a lifetime of hunting)


I'm Irish...

Of course I know how to patch drywall
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