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Evan... I knew I liked you for a reason. Maybe you need to get ahold of some Canadian folks that just had their jobs outsourced and start a line of clothing smile

Seriously. The game we all play, and the gear we all buy, if a N America based company said "Damn... My costs keep going up but I refuse to outsource, and I AM IN THIS to make profit, my prices HAVE to go up 30%..." We'd all bitch about paying more for their product, but we'd sure as hell understand it. In the backpacking biz, solid products made by guys like us count for a whole hell of a lot more than hitting a certain pricepoint.

Too bad about KUIU. They won't see a penny out of me now. I guess I'm buying anohter set of Filson Whipcords to hunt in this year.


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How do you make money if you have no product to sell? This was part of KUIUs problem. By allowing Toray to take over from raw materials to assembly KUIU get's a little more attention and priority.

If they have product to sell, and continue to grow it would seem likely that he'll need accounting, marketing, legal, human resources, IT, and shipping assistance.

North American made didn't matter to me, Made in the USA does, but that's not feasible. I'd rather see KUIU continue to grow and have to hire more at Headquarters in the US, than go belly up to keep some Chinese immigrants employed in Canada.


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I just wanted ONE person to point out what hasn't yet been said on this thread, and I guess I'll be the one to do it, like I did on the same thread on AT.

Moving jobs to China is GOOD for us all.

Anytime we can get an equivalent product for less money, it frees up more money for us to spend on other job-creating pursuits. And moving factory-type unskilled labor to the third world allows Americans to focus on better jobs where we do have a global competitive advantage (not to mention it boosts a terrible economy in whatever third world locale). We want the people/country able to produce a quality product more efficiently to be the ones to produce that product. For the same reason that you don't solely support and buy camo that only your family members have made - there are others out there (US, China, wherever) that are better equipped to make a given product at a lesser cost. And in the end, WE ALL win. Everyone saves money, and everyone is able to work at a task/job/skill in which they excel and work more efficiently than others.

Granted, I too think it's great when an American company can produce a competitive product, but sometimes that doesn't happen, and that's OK. Now as to the issue of advertising "Made in North America" but shipping "Made in China," that's a different one that I'll stay out of.

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Its hard to judge what really is up with any company. Does anyone here now how profitable KUIU was before the manufacturing move? what was their ROI?

Its a competitive environment and they compete agianst larger companies that often manufacturer overseas. I hear a lot of judgement, but I doubt anyone really knows if they were making any profit before their move.


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"As most of you know, KUIU launched just last year and has exploded as a brand. The numbers I was hoping to do our 1st year were smashed by the 3rd month and it has not slowed down."

Sounds to me like he was doing pretty well for himself but him not having enough stock is his own fault. Since he was one of the co-founders of Sitka, you would think he would have had plenty of stock before he opened up for business.

His dishonesty in not telling people that he had already made the switch pissed off a lot of people and I can't say that I blame them. If I had ordered some gear from him thinking it was made in NA and the tag said "Made in China", I would have sent it all back.

He'll be fine but he'll also lose a lot of customers over the switch. I fully expect to see his line in Cabelas or some other big box store within the next 2 years.


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Then... UNION member pilots (ALPA) fly the Made in China products back to the U.S. of A.

How hypocritical is THAT?! LOL

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Since he was one of the co-founders of Sitka, you would think he would have had plenty of stock before he opened up for business.


Why would any business owner want to limit their liquidity as they are opening their doors? How many business miss forecasts by nine months? Seems logical now that he should have had more stock to begin with, but hindsight is 20/20. But, back to my first point. Many businesses fail due to undercapitalization, he dumps his cash into inventory and it sits on shelves...so does his cash.


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I am one of those who ordered the new Verde camo: pants, 185 Zip & Tee and beanie & neck gaiter, had the vest still on pre order, which I've canceled. Didn't think to look at the tags until yesterday, just assumed nothing had changed from my prior orders. This is the part that pisses me off, not the "Made in China" and but the calculated business decision to keep the change quite while shipping the new product. I believe really shows Jason's true ethics & integrity.

Too bad, I really like the product, but this has soured me a bit. But I do have enough of the "original" Kuiu to keep me going for a while.

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But, remember Verde was shipped 6 months early because the Vias supply was completely tapped. It's not unreasonable to think the accelerated timeline could have been a factor in the announcement or lack thereof.



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pka45: The issue I think is that we have all had experience with questionable goods made in China and Kuiu stating quality will improve sounds like a great sales pitch he heard at the manufacturing meeting he attended in Japan(why wasnt it in China?) but questionable in the experience of many with Chinese goods. The real motive is profit margin, but that wouldnt be politically correct.

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Not buying it, he put the Verde up for preorder Sept. 5th - over a month ago, he had plenty of time. That's what his blog is for.

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According to his comments below his blog post, the move to Chinese production (overseen by a Japanese company - interesting historical grist there) will not result in lower cost of goods -- but rather higher quality, quicker time to market, and more volume. The key factor there is probably more volume. You are backed up with orders, money just waiting to come through the door, all you have to do is be able to fill those orders and you can make it happen with a switch to a different manufacturer. I get it.

I've also heard (and made at certain points in my life) the line of reasoning put forth by pka45. That's what it is - a line of reasoning. Not fact, simply an opinion. It's up for debate, just like the idea that made in America is economically better is up for debate. I've sat on both sides of that fence more than once myself.

Just right now, I'm of the mind that if I have an opportunity to encourage economic development closer to home, that's what I'm inclined to do. Just like I'd rather eat locally sourced food if I can. It may cost a little more in dollars but presumably I'm buying more than just the product itself with those dollars.

The beautiful thing is that we're all free to vote with our dollars on the issue.

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Originally Posted by sollybug
pka45: The issue I think is that we have all had experience with questionable goods made in China and Kuiu stating quality will improve sounds like a great sales pitch he heard at the manufacturing meeting he attended in Japan(why wasnt it in China?) but questionable in the experience of many with Chinese goods. The real motive is profit margin, but that wouldnt be politically correct.


He did go to China, he said he visited the facility in Shanghai. He has said there is no change in cost to manufacture, just better yields, quality control and predictability of delivery. Even if that is not the case how much can he really increase his margin? And with a growing company how much does increased OpEx (expanded HQ employees) eat up of said margin.

People are greatly mistaken that just because you manufacture in China all of the sudden you're margins increase exponentially. There are far too many other components and variables at play.


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He knew earlier in the year that he was switching to a chinese manufacturer but didn't tell anyone until yesterday, how can you defend that?


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Everyone makes some valid points. You can manufacture in the US but it is much more difficult. The US just is not set up to manufacture anymore for a lot of items. Sure some stuff you can do but a lot is much easier to do elsewhere.

Then there is the cost factor and availability. You can't sell what you don't have. I would love to see a large scale consumer study of two identical products, one made overseas, in stock and 20 percent less in price. I bet I know which one most consumers will choose.


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I think as a business owner in the midst of a tough decision such as that there is no right answer (when to tell your customers). You know there is going to be backlash, but how do you best temper it? I don't know. If I had to guess, he made the decision to wait until the product flow was up and running.

All summer guys were bitchin' about being out of stock or late preorders. Being a decision maker means you have to take the good with the bad, I guess this is why there are Degrees in Corporate Communications and the when, where and how to communicate is a challenge.


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I know I start with trying to keep business close and then moving outward looking for contractors or product. We commonly here two complaints from customers, lead times and pricing. It is what it is in our current model. We have looked at doing a less expensive line but the only way it gets much lower is to hand it to someone overseas. That is the fact. We don't necessarily mean china we have looked at other avenues we feel are more altruistic , but the effort is much higher on our part since we would need to source and do all sorts of stuff. It's so much harder to do it on your own in the US. Thats the facts.


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Originally Posted by jryoung

He did go to China, he said he visited the facility in Shanghai. He has said there is no change in cost to manufacture, just better yields, quality control and predictability of delivery. Even if that is not the case how much can he really increase his margin? And with a growing company how much does increased OpEx (expanded HQ employees) eat up of said margin.

People are greatly mistaken that just because you manufacture in China all of the sudden you're margins increase exponentially. There are far too many other components and variables at play.


He takes investment capital to Shanghai and gets a better YIELD, you say. Okay, then he will get more garments at the same margin per garment for his investment. Then he sells more garments due to yield being greater and makes more for his original investment.

Profitability as percentage of investment increased. Therefore, profit margin increased above and beyond shipping and customs tariff expenditures, which were not present when manufacturing was in North America.

Translation: You get alot more for your dollar when you manufacture in China, due to cheaper raw goods and labor.

No charge for this lesson. ;-]]

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Duties are roughly 30% out of China, doubtful yield will cover that.

But I agree you do get more for your dollar. So he could have increased his expenses and cash outlay to try fix his gaps in inventory or pay approximately the same amount for more services, shorted lead time, and more predictable cash flow.







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Originally Posted by pka45
I just wanted ONE person to point out what hasn't yet been said on this thread, and I guess I'll be the one to do it, like I did on the same thread on AT.

Moving jobs to China is GOOD for us all.

Anytime we can get an equivalent product for less money, it frees up more money for us to spend on other job-creating pursuits. And moving factory-type unskilled labor to the third world allows Americans to focus on better jobs where we do have a global competitive advantage (not to mention it boosts a terrible economy in whatever third world locale). We want the people/country able to produce a quality product more efficiently to be the ones to produce that product. For the same reason that you don't solely support and buy camo that only your family members have made - there are others out there (US, China, wherever) that are better equipped to make a given product at a lesser cost. And in the end, WE ALL win. Everyone saves money, and everyone is able to work at a task/job/skill in which they excel and work more efficiently than others.

Granted, I too think it's great when an American company can produce a competitive product, but sometimes that doesn't happen, and that's OK. Now as to the issue of advertising "Made in North America" but shipping "Made in China," that's a different one that I'll stay out of.


You learned nothing from the ratification of the North American Free Trade Agreement, evidently.

The model you describe only converts U.S. taxpayers into welfare recipients and increases the quality of life of the foreign worker.

And just because Sitka or Kuiu is produced in China does not mean that it will be cheaper PRICED. I looked at a Sitka top the other day that was $329.oo at a big box store. When they were in their first year of production, that same top was $190.

I say where we screwed up was when Mom thought she was too good to work a sewing job anymore. Or some UNION convinced her she should make a "living wage" at that sewing job.

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