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Nearing retirement and having the benefit of a lifetime of working in manufacturing on a management level, I can tell you that it is a rare industry where US and Canadian manufaturers cannot compete profitably.

There is a secret though - you have to be competent and willing to look in the mirror for the source of your problems. There are a number of shopworn and frankly BS scapegoats that are thrown out by incompetent manufacturers ... government regulation, environmental regulation, unfair foreign business practices, etc, etc ad nauseum. The truth is that to succeed today you have to be good - really good. Learn to listen to your customer and take responsibility for your own success or failure - todays consumer has no time or inclination to listen to you whine about why you can't fill their needs - they want someone to solve their problems and help them succeed.

And yes, if you talk the talk about wanting access to quality domestically produced product, than be willing to pay for it. There ain't no free lunch.

Rant over.

Last edited by OregonCoot; 10/11/12.
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No. Increased yield filled his inventory gap, which was his problem to start with.

And trust me. The duties are more than covered by the increase in profit. Otherwise it's all a mute point.

I've done business in Hong Kong, so just trust me on this. You show them a prototype and they'll produce it for 20% of your original production cost.

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You think Tamoda was hacking up fabric so bad that it caused an inventory shortage? He was six months soit for inventory, that is not going to be made up by yields.

What type of products are you referring to in regards to the 20% of costs?


Wanted: Vintage Remington or Winchester hats, patches, shirts. PM me if you have something.

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I wish it was still made in North America, but waiting 6 months for the gear is a pain. Having the ability to get gear when / if I want it, works for me. I still have a choice and lucky for us hunters there are lots of options out there.

The real problem lies within the US itself. Unions, greed, our overwhelming debt (both personal and governmental) makes it tough to do business here. Hard to find folks willing to work for what it take to remain competitive.

I truly hope quality is maintained, the brand is not sold, and prices don't go up. The reason Sitka prices went up is because they became so popular and folks just kept right on buying! If KUIU prices go up, there is room for someone to take Jason's model, tweak it, and step in and fill the need at a competitive price.

Heck lots of businesses out there a guy can watch and learn from. Sure wish I had the capital to give it a go! : )

Anyone want a pair of $89 quality, quick drying, durable cargo pants w/ slots for knee pads in mountain gray? (Camo pattern under development) To be fair they won't be made in America at that price.. : )

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Originally Posted by evanhill
According to his comments below his blog post, the move to Chinese production (overseen by a Japanese company - interesting historical grist there) will not result in lower cost of goods -- but rather higher quality, quicker time to market, and more volume. The key factor there is probably more volume. You are backed up with orders, money just waiting to come through the door, all you have to do is be able to fill those orders and you can make it happen with a switch to a different manufacturer. I get it.

I've also heard (and made at certain points in my life) the line of reasoning put forth by pka45. That's what it is - a line of reasoning. Not fact, simply an opinion. It's up for debate, just like the idea that made in America is economically better is up for debate. I've sat on both sides of that fence more than once myself.

Just right now, I'm of the mind that if I have an opportunity to encourage economic development closer to home, that's what I'm inclined to do. Just like I'd rather eat locally sourced food if I can. It may cost a little more in dollars but presumably I'm buying more than just the product itself with those dollars.

The beautiful thing is that we're all free to vote with our dollars on the issue.


Evan - how refreshing to see an internet discussion involving a disagreement handled in a respectful manner. Thanks.

Originally Posted by MarcTaylor
You learned nothing from the ratification of the North American Free Trade Agreement, evidently.

The model you describe only converts U.S. taxpayers into welfare recipients and increases the quality of life of the foreign worker.

And just because Sitka or Kuiu is produced in China does not mean that it will be cheaper PRICED. I looked at a Sitka top the other day that was $329.oo at a big box store. When they were in their first year of production, that same top was $190.

I say where we screwed up was when Mom thought she was too good to work a sewing job anymore. Or some UNION convinced her she should make a "living wage" at that sewing job.


Marc - I think that your opinion that free trade turns citizens into welfare recipients is short-sighted, but I also think that it's an opinion that will not be convinced otherwise. Much like my opinion that less government intrusion into my (or anyone's) life is generally a good thing for all. Guess that's where we differ.

I think that moving production overseas does result in "cheaper prices" - or at least prices that don't rise as much/as quickly. Why else would a business move overseas? In a rare case and for a short time without competition, a business may be able to pocket the difference, but with competition, that's unsustainable (isn't the free market a beautiful thing?). I do agree with you on the union issue though. I just wasn't going to bring it up, ha. (Isn't it amazing that non-union car companies in the US didn't have any financial issues? OK, I've probably said too much...)

Pete

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I just don't like to feed the commies period! Rather have my US dollars go elsewhere so after reading this post I will buy either stony glacier or kifaru ultralight pack. I really like the KUIU but...

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I have never owned any of Kuiu's gear, I did go online several times to purchase a Spindrift jacket, but they were always out of stock...

It seems like most companies move their production to China to be able to compete, but Kuiu seemed to have no trouble competing in the small market of high end technical, hunting specific clothes.

The fact that Kuiu was so successful makes it hard for me to believe that the change in manufacturing was made for any other reason besides growth, and as a business move maybe that will be a wise move. Time will tell.

I think there is definitely a market for hunting specific clothing made in the USA/Canada. Wouldn't surprise me to see someone taking that plunge soon.

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I agree and have already spoken with a highend Vancouver, BC outdoor clothing manufacturer about this issue. They now produce the BEST shell jackets, etc. that I have ever seen or worn in the BC mountains and would be the ideal outfit to make clothing for hunting BC's sheep.

I will and have always paid higher prices to "buy Canadian" and some superb gear is made here; I also will and usually do pay more to "buy American", although I consider NAFTA a total sellout to corporate interests and a bad deal for all working North Americans.

I have never purchased an item of Sitka, won't buy Kuiu and have spent many thousands on MR, Kifaru, WM, MM and other North American gear. I fully intend to buy more Wild Things Tactical clothing, am most impressed by the WT light softshell pants I just got from "High Caliber Gear" of Montana and I buy Canadian and European and American footwear.......

I am NOT going to assist the Chinamen to take over the world as they are doing by sneaky economic means, nor, do I support selling them one drop of Canadian crude oil to fuel the "blue water" nave they are currently building.

Buy North American, then European-----works for me!

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I hope they know what they are doing.. in this internet age, word spreads very fast of bad products. They are really rolling the dice by going to China.

I'm thinking of Xtra-Tuff boots in particular. Took Alaskans no time at all to stop buying the product, after they sent operations to china and quality wasn't up to the abuse Alaskans gave their product. They ended up having to recall the the boots made in China, after a big article in ADN that would have killed them. I'm sure they lost a bundle..

BTW, I'm too damn cheap to buy Kuiu..

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If we all let our pocketbook do the talking, the market will respond.

Great debate here. No one acting like a sitting V.P.

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Originally Posted by MarcTaylor
If we all let our pocketbook do the talking, the market will respond.

Great debate here. No one acting like a sitting V.P.


I agree wholeheartedly!

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Originally Posted by pka45
And moving factory-type unskilled labor to the third world allows Americans to focus on better jobs where we do have a global competitive advantage.


Moving unskilled factory labor offshore means that our below-average urban citizens are cut off from the only work that they are capable of doing. "Better jobs", whatever you mean by that, are not available to them because they can't be trained.

Quote
WE ALL win. Everyone saves money, and everyone is able to work at a task/job/skill in which they excel and work more efficiently than others.


No, we don't all win. Some Americans will never excel and work more efficiently than others. It is in the nature of being below average. (Half the American population, if we're being honest.)

We can let them starve, or we can support them on welfare, or we can get them their unskilled jobs back. But that's about it.

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Hi Tom,

I'm sure we would both agree on some of the problem being that we've incentivized NOT working and living off the government. And while your other thoughts seem logical and even noble, I disagree. Here, check out Stossel's reasoning, as he makes these points much better than I:

http://reason.com/archives/2012/08/01/myths-we-live-by

The bottom line is that saving the consumer money by outsourcing gives us more money to spend and invest. This creates jobs and wealth, and we are better off as a whole. There will always be jobs for the less skilled/intelligent - at McDonalds, or Walmart, or the like. I just wonder if there will be the labor force to work those jobs when they could do just as well NOT working!

Pete


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From the sounds of things... the price isn't getting any cheaper, AND

What frosts my manberries is that Eric decided to go out of country, and not tell customers waiting. They paid money for gear made on this continent.

That's the big deal breaker for me...


I'm Irish...

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Originally Posted by pka45
I'm sure we would both agree on some of the problem being that we've incentivized NOT working and living off the government. ... There will always be jobs for the less skilled/intelligent - at McDonalds, or Walmart, or the like. I just wonder if there will be the labor force to work those jobs when they could do just as well NOT working!


Pete:

Suppose my dream comes true this November and it results in all or at least most of those deadbeats being thrown off the dole.

Now suppose all those deadbeats get off their azzes and get jobs at McDonalds and Walmart.

How many hamburgers do you suppose I can eat, while trying to keep them gainfully employed? And I'm about maxed out now on the money I spend at Walmart.

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Originally Posted by tjm10025
Suppose my dream comes true this November and it results in all or at least most of those deadbeats being thrown off the dole.


I thought I was the only one who dreamt about that? Ha...

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Since when did sewing skills become unskilled factory labor?

Try making an jacket or pants and then report back on how easy it went.!

Just because the poorest and weakest, such as women and children are exploited into working for pennies under sweatshop conditions doesn't mean they don't have skills, intelligence, or even dreams and aspirations.

We need to respect the speed and effort our fellow humans put out to produce our clothing and put food on our tables.

I personally don't like "made in china" products and will buy local if at all possible. At the same time I feel an great deal of respect for the workers in factories and in the worlds farm fields that nourish us. Their skill and hard work is under appreciated and taken for granted.

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I agreed and it is worse with yellow skin commies. I am an asian myself. Lets say if we have a role reversal there is no way in Hll those asian countries would accept white, blacks, hispanics, and etc as refugee or legal immigrants as the US/ Canada have for so long. Chinese government and the Taliban's are no different. They both hate the USA but the only slight difference is the Chinese want to take over the world with deceiving business practices. Vietnam, Cambo, and Laos are China's bitches so don't be to happy buying products made from those countries either. CEO who contributes to the commies financial growth should be strip out of US citizenship and be sent to that country.

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Originally Posted by yurotrash
I agreed and it is worse with yellow skin commies. I am an asian myself. Lets say if we have a role reversal there is no way in H@ll those asian countries would accept white, blacks, hispanics, and etc as refugee or legal immigrants as the US/ Canada have for so long. Chinese government and the Taliban's are no different. They both hate the USA but the only slight difference is the Chinese want to take over the world with deceiving business practices. Vietnam, Cambo, and Laos are China's bitches so don't be to happy buying products made from those countries either. CEO who contributes to the commies financial growth should be strip out of US citizenship and be sent to that country.


Where's the LIKE button?!

Right on.

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Speaking from personal experience, I couldn't disagree more about outsourcing leading to Americans having more money to spend and invest. I've worked with many Japanese and Chinese companies, as well as European and South American companies. I know how the Global Economy is supposed to work, but it only works that way for certain people...

My last job was analyzing and implementing an offshore transfer of a product assembled in the USA to China. My analysis showed that within 5 years of transfer that total landed cost would be a wash, due to the upward trends of labor costs in China and in shipping and logistics. The company went ahead with the transfer anyway. I did my job too well, and ended up unemployed for almost 2 1/2 years, along with many of the other people I worked with. I had to cash in most of my investments while unemployed, not to maintain the standard of living I had when I was working, but to keep a roof over our heads and food on our table. I'm now working again, at another company, for 2/3 of the salary I was making before. I have less money to spend and invest, less benefits due to loss of years with the company, and 1/3 of the vacation time to spend what I do have, not to mention the loss of time I have to be with my family.

Last month I talked with a friend that still works for the company. He told me I was right, and that they were in the process of bringing products back to the USA. Due to the expense of both transfers the products will end up losing more money than if they'd stayed the course in the USA. You'd think that that would have given me some small measure of satisfaction, but it didn't; just gave me a hollow feeling...

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