24hourcampfire.com
24hourcampfire.com
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Page 3 of 3 1 2 3
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 1,800
Campfire Regular
Offline
Campfire Regular
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 1,800
Below I have copied the text of the note from The American Rifleman story about the 6.5 rifle rechambered to .30-06.

It's neither BS nor an urban legend. The gunsmith, Enique Mahnke, had an unusual name that can be checked with google.

I'll try to include one of the photos that appeared in the magazine.

--Bob
Originally Posted by The American Rifleman magazine, May 1959, pp52-53

Bullet 'Forming'

Many .30-'06 cartridges fire in rechambered but not rebored Jap 6.5 mm military rifle

Recently Enique Mahnke, a gunsmith of Cobb, Calif., set in 3 empty .30-'06 cases, one with the primer smashed very flat, and the other 2 with the primers missing and the primer pockets slightly expanded. Accompanying them was the following letter:

"Recently a man brought a Jap rifle to me and wanted me to fix it so it would not kick so much. He had been using regular .30-'06 hunting cartridges in the rifle which he said was a Jap 7.7 mm. (cal. .303) that he had rechambered himself.

"A glance at the rifle showed me that it was a 6.5 mm.(.256) and I told him he must have brought in the wrong rifle, as a .256 could not be rechambered to .30-'06 because the pilot on the reamer would not enter the barrel. He said that he had had that trouble, but had cured it by grinding down the pilot of the reamer until it would go in.

"After the rechambering was finished, he had tested out the rifle by firing 2 shots, holding the rifle in one hand on the far side of a tree, and it had almost kicked out of his hand. He then fired a few shots at a target, and went hunting with it and killed a deer, but the gun kicked so badly that he decided to bring it and have me fix it.

"I would never have believed cal. .30 bullets could be fired through a cal. .256 bore without bursting the gun, but here are the gun and empty cartridge cases to prove it.

"I am sending the rifle along to you for any tests you might care to make. If you blow the gun up, it is all right with me as it is no good the way it is. I just thought you might be interested."

This is a bit startling, in spite of the fact that the cal. 6.5 mm. Jap is an exceptionally strong rifle. It is made of extra tough material, and moreover the head of the case is unusually well enclosed, which makes for additional strength. However, few would expect it to stand the treatment described.

To find out just what a cal. .30 bullet would look like after being squeezed down by being fired through a bore only a bit over 2/3 its normal cross-sectional area, we fired a Service .30-'06 with a 172-gr. boattail bullet, a 180-gr. Remington soft-point Core-lokt, and a Remington 220-gr. Mushroom Core-lokt into a recovery box which is filled with oiled sawdust. The results are shown in the cut [photo] below.

With the 172-gr. .30 M1, the bolt handle was hard to lift, but the case extracted satisfactorily, and except for the extremely flat primer it looked normal. On the 180-gr. and the 220-gr. hunting loads, the bolt open easily, but the cartridge cases failed to extract and had to be knocked out with a ramrod.

After the test the measured headspace on this rifle was found to be 1.945", which is within tolerance for a new .30-'06. After all the beating that this rilfe had received, it remained intact, with no cracks or other damage visible.

The owner of this rifle was lucky enough to get away with a very foolish stunt without being injured. Ore firing tests were done by remote control, with recautions against injury should the rifle explode --NRA TECH STAFF

.
. [Linked Image]

Last edited by BullShooter; 10/21/12.
BP-B2

Joined: May 2008
Posts: 16,540
Campfire Ranger
Offline
Campfire Ranger
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 16,540
That is the article I was referring to.

Thanks for finding it and posting it.


The Chosin Few November to December 1950, Korea.
I'm not one of the Chosin Few but no more remarkable group of Americans ever existed.
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 16,540
Campfire Ranger
Offline
Campfire Ranger
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 16,540
Originally Posted by vapodog
Originally Posted by Mathsr
I have seen the mention on another occasion of a 6.5 Arisaka being re chambered to 30/06 and it still seems to me to be something that would be difficult to do accidentally. The pilot on the reamer would be 30 caliber and not enter the 6.5mm bore. I don't doubt that an Arisaka action is strong (even if ugly), but I doubt that this conversion mentioned above took place by accident.

Exactly.....I'd hoist the BS flag on this story.

As to the story about the Arisaka action being so strong.....It stems from experiments by P O Ackley.....and that alone discredits the credibility of the work.


Trust the NRA Technical Staff of 1959?

That Type 38 is one hell-for-strong action. Both from a design and manufacturing perspective.


The Chosin Few November to December 1950, Korea.
I'm not one of the Chosin Few but no more remarkable group of Americans ever existed.
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,812
J
Campfire 'Bwana
Online Sleepy
Campfire 'Bwana
J
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,812
Originally Posted by ghost
Get Ackley's book, Handbook for Shoooters and Reloaders, and he goes into why the action was so strong. Since the 7.7 was 311 caliber, it could be rechambered to 06 case, but would have to use 303 bullets. I've heard the story too about the 6.5, but it was a shorter round and not sure the action would take an 06 case.

Today, there are a LOT of stronger actions than the Arisaka's. The Rem. 700 about the strongest action out there. In a blow up test in the 40s, when the 721 first came out, Gen. Hatcher and his folks blew up a number of other actions, but were unable to blow the 721. The charge they had in it, to get to bulging and locking up the action, was a case FULL of proof powder, with a 180gr bullet, and then 5 or so MORE 180gr bullets, shoved down the barrel on top of it. What happens in most blow ups is, the case is not entirely supported, some of it, like in the model 70, is not supported, do to the design of the action. The pressures in the cartridge then let the unsupported area BLOW away, and feed gasses, etc., through the action, which destroys it. With the head of the cartridge being totally surrounded by steel, as in the 721-700 action, there is no unsupported case head area.



The Rem 700 is definately not stronger than the Arissaka. The Rem-700 has .020" unsupported case. Surrounding the case head with steel is not needed, since the case head is the streoingest part of the case



I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,812
J
Campfire 'Bwana
Online Sleepy
Campfire 'Bwana
J
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,812
Originally Posted by vapodog
Originally Posted by Mathsr
I have seen the mention on another occasion of a 6.5 Arisaka being re chambered to 30/06 and it still seems to me to be something that would be difficult to do accidentally. The pilot on the reamer would be 30 caliber and not enter the 6.5mm bore. I don't doubt that an Arisaka action is strong (even if ugly), but I doubt that this conversion mentioned above took place by accident.

Exactly.....I'd hoist the BS flag on this story.

As to the story about the Arisaka action being so strong.....It stems from experiments by P O Ackley.....and that alone discredits the credibility of the work.



Jack Huntington intentionaly tried to blow up an Arisaka action but was able to do so. He even drove a steel plug into the barrel and loaded the case full with Bullseye. This =blew the barrelk out of the action, the action was fine



I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
IC B2

Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 3,364
3
Campfire Tracker
Offline
Campfire Tracker
3
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 3,364
Originally Posted by WoodsyAl
They are not the prettiest, but not necessarily the ugliest rifles out there. (Personal thing, but I'd rather look at it than a black rifle.) Here's mine that I amateurishly sporterized almost 50 years ago when I was in college. That's a stock blank from good old Herter's that those of you of a certain age will remember. I refinished the stock a few years ago. I originally used a peep sight on that rifle and killed a lot of deer with it. My uncle brought it back from the Pacific and gave it to me when I was five years old.

[Linked Image]



Nice bottom metal.

Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 4,152
Campfire Tracker
Offline
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 4,152
Yeah, I believe it was done and I am glad to see the article and pictures of the bullets. I would still love to see a chamber cast with the first few inches of the bore.

It is amazing the punishment the old action took and kept on working. I never doubted that the action was strong as I have read for years of things that have been done to them and they survived. I just doubted that the 6.5 barrel was chambered with a 30/06 chambering reamer by accident. It seems from the article that the doer of the deed went to some trouble to successfully chamber his rifle with the 30/06 reamer and ran into precisely the problem I though he would. Still amazes me that it was actually done...by accident or on purpose!

It is hard for me to imagine what was going through the guys mind if the reamer's pilot didn't fit the bore. Still smacks of a stunt pulled because the guy believed the action would take it and it did.

I would love to see this done with a Remington 700 barreled action. Anybody got a Remington 700 in 260 Remington they want to re chamber to 308 Winchester just for kicks?


Harry
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 8,695
Campfire Outfitter
Offline
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 8,695



dave


[Linked Image]

Only accurate rifles are interesting.
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 4,320
1
Campfire Tracker
Offline
Campfire Tracker
1
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 4,320
I have never tried this, nor do I have any documentation on whether or not it is factual, but I have read that squeezing a bullet down does not increase pressures all that much.

By all that much, I guess that could mean it does not increase pressure enough to destroy the rifle.

I would like to see this tested under laboratory conditions.

Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 4,152
Campfire Tracker
Offline
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 4,152
There was an article a year or so ago about a guy that built a 22LR reamer with a throat that tapered to 17 cal and one that tapered to 20cal. He was chambering 17 and 20 caliber barrels for the 22LR. When he fired them the bullet was swaged down to the bore diameter and the resulting longer bullet had more velocity and penetration was greatly increased. It was an interesting article but I can't find it in any of the magazines I've saved.

I think I read that the Germans did something similar with the .318 bores on their rifles so that they could shoot the newer .323 bullets. It seems that the long throat prevented the immediate spike in pressure and the bullet was swaged to bore diameter with no problem.

This is stuff that I have read and not anything that I have done. I would like to try one of those 20 caliber/22LR versions though, but I think the guy was in Australia and has since passed away.

All this is why I said that I would love to see a chamber cast of the 6.5 Arisaka that was rechambered to 30/06.



Harry
IC B3

Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 28,605
Campfire Ranger
Offline
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 28,605
my books are at home so im going from memory but seems to me the Germans in WWII had a couple guns(by guns i mean tank/artillery pieces) that had barrels that tapered down for shooting tungsten projectiles cause it would increase pressures and therefor up the velocity and penetrating qualities.....but for the life of me i cant remember how much the squeee was.....want to say it was something along the lines of squeezing a 88mm projectile down to 78 or 75mm or something like that....

unfortunately im leaving town shortly and cant go check....maybe one of the WWII experts here knows what im referring to.....seems to me this is what they originally wanted to do with the gun on the Tiger tank but tungsten was in very short supply for the Germans during the war so they just went with the modified 88mm flak gun....


A serious student of the "Armchair Safari" always looking for Africa/Asia hunting books
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 4,320
1
Campfire Tracker
Offline
Campfire Tracker
1
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 4,320
My first center fire rifle was a military 8X57, during the late 50s.

I used Win. factory loads in it. At the time, there was some discussion in magazines about the .318 dia. bullet and the .323 dia. bullet. It was confusing then, and is also confusing now, as to which rifles had which bore size.

There was something called a "J" and also a "JS". I think the JS was the .323.

If I remember, and this was a long time ago, Winchester factory loads used the .323 bullet, but the cartridges were loaded down, in the event someone fired a Win. factory load in a rifle with a .318 bore.

I think I remember reading, somewhere, that all 98s in 8MM had the .323 bore size, and that all 8mm rifles built before the 98 had the .318. As I said, it was confusing then, and it still is.

Or maybe it is simple, and it is just confusing to me.

Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,063
H
Campfire Regular
Offline
Campfire Regular
H
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,063
Some German sporting rifles actually have choked barrels, that taper down a little near the muzzle. Supposed to improve accuracy while raising velocity. It's a pretty expensive way to do it, but if you're spending the money to have claw mounted $3,000 scopes and engraving, why not?

Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 6,387
Campfire Tracker
Offline
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 6,387
Originally Posted by teal
I can't even remember the last time I saw an Arisaka action/rifle for sale!

Then again, I don't really read GB and the like either.


I can send you my friend's in 308. He has a couple of 'em.

Great rifles, those Arisaka's.

Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 884
T
Campfire Regular
Offline
Campfire Regular
T
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 884
The Germans made three tapper bore anti-tank guns in WWII. The bores tappered from 28mm-20mm, 40.3mm-29.4mm and 75mm-58mm and all had muzzle velocities in excess of 4,000 fps. There difficult to manufacture, and saw limited use to the shortage of tungsten. Even after the German military switched to the 8x57JS (.323"), many commercial rifles continued to be made in the original 8x57J (.318") caliber. So unless marked "S" or "JS". it's a good idea to slug the bore of any pre WWII German 8mm sporing rifles, rimmed or rimless.


Rich or poor, it pays to have money.
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 2,973
Campfire Regular
Offline
Campfire Regular
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 2,973
I have a real nice sporterized one I bought for a bill that even came with the flip out anti aircraft beams, says its chambered in 30-06. Currently have a stuck round in the chamber in the half lock position.

When I get ballzy enough someday, I think I might try tapping it back open. Figure I better have a replacement extractor on stand-by when I do.....

Its a shame that it has to be locked in a case until then.... frown
Did I mention it's a really nice looking gun?


If 'ya can't put hot sauce on it, it ain't worth eat'n....

Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,267
F
Campfire Regular
Offline
Campfire Regular
F
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,267
Years ago I had a gunsmith mount a scope on my 6.5 Arisaka, I heard that they had a very strong action and asked him about it. He told me that he once tried to blow one up, he filled the case with 2400 powder and fired it using a string while he hid behind a tree, nothing happened, he then did the same thing except he plugged the barrel with a ball bearing, he ended up bulging the barrel, the action was still intact. I still have my sportsorized Arisaka and on occasion I take it out and run a few rounds through it.

Page 3 of 3 1 2 3

Moderated by  RickBin 

Link Copied to Clipboard
YB23

Who's Online Now
672 members (1beaver_shooter, 1Akshooter, 10gaugemag, 17CalFan, 12344mag, 74 invisible), 2,931 guests, and 1,433 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Statistics
Forums81
Topics1,187,672
Posts18,399,514
Members73,817
Most Online11,491
Jul 7th, 2023


 







Fish & Game Departments | Solunar Tables | Mission Statement | Privacy Policy | Contact Us | DMCA
Hunting | Fishing | Camping | Backpacking | Reloading | Campfire Forums | Gear Shop
Copyright © 2000-2024 24hourcampfire.com, Inc. All Rights Reserved.
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5
(Release build 20201027)
Responsive Width:

PHP: 7.3.33 Page Time: 0.099s Queries: 16 (0.005s) Memory: 0.8930 MB (Peak: 1.0564 MB) Data Comp: Zlib Server Time: 2024-03-28 20:44:24 UTC
Valid HTML 5 and Valid CSS