24hourcampfire.com
24hourcampfire.com
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Page 2 of 3 1 2 3
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 18,508
Campfire Ranger
Offline
Campfire Ranger
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 18,508

Depends on the rifle as well.

I shoot a lever gun with the elbow down as this reduces gun movement when levering for quick follow ups.

A run a bolt gun with elbow higher, but not straight out like many do.

BP-B2

Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 1,444
Campfire Regular
Offline
Campfire Regular
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 1,444
I've had some time to grab some books and mull this over a bit. Ya know I feel like we're giving answers to the wrong question. If your friend has marksmanship issues in the field, should you be teaching him to shoot a good standing, or would he better be served by teaching him to seek the first rock or tree to rest off of to make a better shot?

I shoot a fair offhand in Highpower competition, but what it has taught me is not the mechanics of shooting offhand in the field. My learning has been more cognitive. In spite of my match scores, I know that I will take a carefully aimed deliberate offhand shot in only very narrow circumstances (without better options, no wind, good footing etc.) Offhand has also taught me about trigger control and discipline that is applicable in all field positions.

I could share with you what the highpower champions have said relative to your initial question, but again I think you're focusing on the wrong question for your friend.

Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 57,366
R
Campfire Kahuna
Offline
Campfire Kahuna
R
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 57,366
I'm probably faster than a lot of folks at a quick movement into some kind of supported position or grabbing grass or brush etc... I have not taken many offhand shots by choice...

The one I did I was glad for the Highpower background... 150 plus yards and center punched a moose...yeah I know, gravy target.... but still..


We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 4,742
Campfire Tracker
OP Offline
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 4,742
Thanks for the deeper look, ChrisF. In other circumstances, perhaps, your thought might be key to correcting the conversation.

The recognition of need in my buddy began with a deer-losing 'rest' problem (he fiddled too long, lost the chance for a shot). We explored, and he doesn't have the mind-set of quickly determining the right position for the circumstance, doesn't know and isn't comfortable in standard positions, isn't aware of the multitude of things that constitute a rest, needs a refresher on shooting fundamentals, and simply needs trigger time.

Offhand instruction and practice will be a small part of our time. This thread was begun because I'm missing that particular rationale and I like to be thorough- even in the small stuff.

I've shot a goodly number of animals (not nearly as many as some folks have (!), but quite a few), only a handful, of big game, from offhand (with a rifle). By far, most have been from prone; though partly because of my preferred hunting style. I almost always hunt under a daypack, and it's my primary rest. I'm a firm believer in assisted shooting. I'm confident that I'll do well by my friend re his deficiencies noted above, (and more; my thoroughness sometimes knows no bounds smile ).

So I think we can return to the subject. I'd like to hear what those champs have to say.

Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 57,366
R
Campfire Kahuna
Offline
Campfire Kahuna
R
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 57,366
If you have someone that has problems figuring out quickly what one can grab, kneel, sit, lean, etc.... for a field rest, teaching him to shoot well enough offhand will be a MUCH harder thing. IE easier to teach the field positions as noted...


We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
IC B2

Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 4,742
Campfire Tracker
OP Offline
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 4,742
It'll be just a part of a full review. He's not inexperienced, just hasn't had the good, full training one would like. He's a smart cookie; the practice and 'making it his' will be his responsibility as more time goes by.
Don't worry-- I'll have him better, and with the tools to get even better.

Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 57,366
R
Campfire Kahuna
Offline
Campfire Kahuna
R
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 57,366
Sounds good. Keyboards and typing don't give the whole story most of the time.

Good luck adn good on ya for helping.

Jeff


We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 19,158
B
Campfire Ranger
Offline
Campfire Ranger
B
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 19,158
If you teach him to be a good offhand shot, every other position will be easy for him. Tell him to get ahold of an accurate .22 rimfire and about 20,000 rds. of ammunition to start. Precise trigger control/letoff is what anyone really needs to be great offhand and that takes lots of practice to master.

Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 4,742
Campfire Tracker
OP Offline
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 4,742
I more or less agree. But not practical in this case.


But, please-- the thread intent?


(I'm not green around the ears (my teeth are another matter). While I'm no certified marksmanship coach, I've been around the banana boat a few times. I'm confident, and not without cause, that I'll do well in ways that will be useful to my buddy. So, thanks for the suggestions about the teaching; but all I really want, or need, is the old-time rationale...)

Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 57,366
R
Campfire Kahuna
Offline
Campfire Kahuna
R
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 57,366
I'm still going with the rationale that its what works best with each shooter and each weapon. High, low or in between.

I had a coach step on a junior shooters legs of mine once. Once. I told him to get off. He said she could not shoot well with the foot/leg in that position in prone. I explained to him we'd tried the "correct" way and so on and were not new at this game... She proceeded shortly there after to be 3rd in the nation in the Whistler Boy Match at Camp Perry...
He never said another word to me. Ever.

I still think mostly the elbow position is in an effort to keep the head up right on the stock. When your ears are not level the brain can think you are falling and start sending motor signals to correct when not needed. You are trying to be relaxed in the shot, and the movement won't help you any. Thats from the target side of it.

Hunting, IMHO, can be totally different. In that if you have time to set up the shot the correct way offhand, then you had MORE than enough time to find a field expedient BETTER rest. So the teaching there would be more the master of trigger control and lean into the rifle, use a sling, and get the shots off quickly IMHO.

And like Blackheart I'ds tart with a 22 for sure... 5000 rounds of ammo is a good start. Thats after I'd have him dry fire it till I was happy, then start mixing in live ammo, but go back to dry fire to make sure he isn't working up a flinch...


We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
IC B3

Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 2,760
Campfire Regular
Offline
Campfire Regular
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 2,760
My days of competitive shooting are long gone. I lived through the Marine Corps transition to the mouse gun at Quantico. A good off hand position is established with a natural point of aim when you rely upon the geometry of your structure to provide a solid platform to recover from recoil without muscling the rifle. When mounting the rifle, you do not want your strong side arm wound up like Popeye when he's throwing a punch. You need a natural position. I shot the M14 with a spot weld with my forearm support straight under the stock directly ahead of the mag box. Having a high strong arm elbow gave me a natural pocket, allowed proper placement of my grip upon the stock wrist, allowed the stock to properly align with my face for a solid weld, and allowed a solid pull into my shoulder while maintining proper trigger control. If I attempted to raise my elbow, either too high or too low, from this natural position, I would bind and my solid platform would then break down.

Making the transition to the mouse gun required a change to to my natural shooting position due to the change in design and ergonomics of the M16. With the M16, my grip placement is changed and I shoot this rifle with a cheek weld vs a spot weld. As a result, my geometry requires that I adjust my position so that I do not bind/wind up like Poypeye.

Same thing can be said for different designs in hunting rifles and shotguns. I spend a ton of time hunting game birds with shotguns. The techniques used to swing and mount a shotgun to hit fast moving birds is critical to success and is much different than shooting either a M14 or a M16 off hand. There is very little in common in the mechanics to execute a well aimed shot. If you mounted an M14 like a shotgun, you'd never score very high, and if you mounted a shotgun like an M14, you'd hit few pheasants. One could say the same thing when looking at a heavy recoiling big bore designed for hunting dangerous game. The ergonomics of the rifle or shotgun plays a big part in how you apply your natural shooting position. It is not a one size fits all between all marksmen, and it's not a one size fits all between different disciplines of weaponry and shooting styles.

edit to add :

One could even say that how you would properly mount an M16 for CQB so that you could be most effective at hitting targets on the move, would be a completely different technique in how you would mount the same rifle to shoot off hand in service rifle competition to clean the target with max X hits. Both would look different, and neither would work well if the techniques were flip flopped.

Best smile

Last edited by GaryVA; 10/28/12.

�I've never met a genius. A genius to me is someone who does well at something he hates. Anybody can do well at something he loves -- it's just a question of finding the subject.�

- Clint Eastwood
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 1,444
Campfire Regular
Offline
Campfire Regular
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 1,444
Gary M, is that you?

Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 14,633
S
Campfire Outfitter
Offline
Campfire Outfitter
S
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 14,633
Read David Tubb's book...if you want to learn how to shoot standing and apply what he advises!! It ain't learned overnite!!


Even birds know not to land downwind!
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 57,366
R
Campfire Kahuna
Offline
Campfire Kahuna
R
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 57,366
Davids is not the only method though, as in the approach method he uses. More than a few 200s are shot all year long using other methods. FWIW.

When I shot enough to be able to grab the shot like David does, it works really well though.

Problem is with any of them, you have to adapt them to you.


We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 1,444
Campfire Regular
Offline
Campfire Regular
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 1,444
When TUBB wrote about his method he created quite a stir because it ran counter to the convention at the time (shoot within your hold, and work to minimize your hold). At that time, he was shooting an Anschutz trigger on his Model 70 match rifle. Today it's an Anschutz trigger on his TUBB2K. Many folks gave his method an honest to goodness try, but not many came away with much success. I think that part of the problem was that his method required exquisite trigger control which was more doable with the Anschutz trigger. The vast majority of highpower is done with a Service Rifle, who's trigger runs a minimum of 4.5 lbs.

At the time his book came out, I was coaching with a High School Small Bore and Air Rifle program. We taught the conventional method, which continues to be valid today. One of our kids went on to win the NCAA Air Rifle Championship (which is all standing) in his freshman year, and won the World Cup in Munich for Air Rifle using the conventional technique.

Back in the world of High Power (with wind at the range), Carl Bernosky recently tied Gary Anderson's record for Standing Slow Fire of 200-15X. I haven't asked him recently if how he holds on the target, but at recently as a few years back, he was a "hold 'em and squeeze 'em" kind of guy.

GDT's an innovator and he found something that worked for him. He even shared his secrets via his book. Unfortunately, it wasn't replicable for many.

Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 1,444
Campfire Regular
Offline
Campfire Regular
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 1,444
p.s. Mr. Mulhern, I used to enjoy your articles in PS magazine. Had you heard that they're closing their doors?

Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 11,109
Campfire Outfitter
Offline
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 11,109
What is the conventional technique??


George
Associate Gypsy
Order of Sleepless Knights

Originally Posted by GOD
... That is when I carried you ...
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 1,444
Campfire Regular
Offline
Campfire Regular
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 1,444
Shoot your hold.

Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 11,109
Campfire Outfitter
Offline
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 11,109
which is greek ..... what does shoot your hold imply??


George
Associate Gypsy
Order of Sleepless Knights

Originally Posted by GOD
... That is when I carried you ...
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 1,444
Campfire Regular
Offline
Campfire Regular
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 1,444
Shoot your rifle as steady as possible using good fundamentals (the "hold") and get your shot off within that "hold". This is in contrast to Tubb recommending guiding the sights across the target and getting the shot off when the sights are aligned. This is also in contrast to where you try to time your wobble so that you can break the trigger when it wobbles into the right spot. More often than not that results in a "grab" at the trigger which disturbs the alignment of the sights on the target.

Last edited by ChrisF; 11/28/12.
Page 2 of 3 1 2 3

Moderated by  RickBin 

Link Copied to Clipboard
YB23

Who's Online Now
115 members (338reddog, 32_20fan, 01Foreman400, 35, 10gaugeman, 257robertsimp, 8 invisible), 1,448 guests, and 728 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Statistics
Forums81
Topics1,187,589
Posts18,397,889
Members73,815
Most Online11,491
Jul 7th, 2023


 







Fish & Game Departments | Solunar Tables | Mission Statement | Privacy Policy | Contact Us | DMCA
Hunting | Fishing | Camping | Backpacking | Reloading | Campfire Forums | Gear Shop
Copyright © 2000-2024 24hourcampfire.com, Inc. All Rights Reserved.
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5
(Release build 20201027)
Responsive Width:

PHP: 7.3.33 Page Time: 0.147s Queries: 15 (0.004s) Memory: 0.8962 MB (Peak: 1.0564 MB) Data Comp: Zlib Server Time: 2024-03-28 09:12:20 UTC
Valid HTML 5 and Valid CSS