Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Handguns 454 Casull vs bigger calibers question

Sounds about right, but I dont know anything compared to John and Whit. What do you guys think? By the way Whit, I'm sure you heard this a thousand times but your book is fantastic. Only book I've ever read more than once. Such a wealth of info on big bore handguns. Thank you for writing it.
Ryan

I had to read it twice Hawk but you are right on.
What I meant by large blood trails is they start at the impact point and you don't have to hunt for first blood. If a deer happens to go far, you can find it. The truth is when you find blood at the spot you hit the deer, it does not go far.
A too fast boolit can remove the cutting edge away from tissue with the pressure wave.
The search for pure velocity can be detrimental. The 12 ga slug just works as does a BP round ball. So does a .44 mag work as good as any other caliber.
The whole thing about velocity is to shoot farther and flatter. Not a good choice when deer are 20 yards.
I have dropped deer DRT at 100 yards with a .45 Colt so would a .454 be better? No, it would be better at 200 yards plus or with a much larger animal. But regulating the bullet/boolit will correct all of that.
Bullets have been a problem for years. You would not hunt deer with a 30-06 and armor piercing bullets and long ago a 180 gr was bad. You used a 150 to 165 gr until the 180 was made better.
It will always be the bullet/ boolit, never how fast.
I see posts all the time with guys looking for 1450 to 1500 fps from a .44 and using light bullets. How do you explain that it is wrong? 180 gr hollow points at full velocity is just wrong for deer. It is like a 22-250.
Look at the damage done to a man with a .58 Minie' ball from a rile in the civil war.
I have a real problem with revolver shooters that think any barrel length, any size cartridge, any twist rate, any weight boolit and any velocity will work. Not a single one would consider those funny ideas with a rifle.

A lighter bullet is usually constructed "not as tough" as the heavier bullet, hence it will expand or open easier and more rapid the faster it is pushed.

How would a slower heavier bullet cause more damage? Penetration should be taken out of consideration with.45 cal's on deer sized animal. I fail to see how a WFN of .451 or 2 will do more damage that a HP that has expanded to .750 or so at the same distance/velocity.

Most do fail to see how this is possible. depending on the size and toughness of the game is is very possible and happens consistently

So long as the projectile can handle the pressure of impact and penetration, the faster it goes, the better it works.

There is simply no conversation to the contrary. This is physics, on paper and in practice. Having seen several thousand big to really big animals, including elephant, hippo, rhino buffalo, brown bears, lions, etc etc. killed with every imaginable rifle and bullet combination. There is simply no mistaking the function of velocity into the mix of lethal performance.

458 win mag can be considered a foundation of this principle. Once considered a failure when introduced for various loading problems it was generally accepted to provide about 2000 fps. Far too many issues were involved with this cartridge.

The 458 Lott was born to solve that problem using the same bullet but at 2300-2400 fps. Far more devastating performance. So much so that in many circles it's considered "the standard" back up rifle for Dangerous game in Sub Saharan Africa. Then the 460 weatherby came into the picture which simply crumples the game with an unimaginable force. If Velocity were no issue then simply shooting a light recoiling 1500 fps rifle with the same 500 grain bullet should be sufficient. It's clearly not even close to functional by comparison.

The same can be said with the plethora of 416 cartridges. They get better and better as the velocity increases. I respectfully disagree with you on this velocity does not matter presentation.

It is about the bullet, so long as it has the integrity to handle the pressure. But the faster you drive it, the more trauma you deliver. The 165gr TSX bullet will out perform the 180 gr TSX on all the game we have shot ( many hundreds of them) it's now quickly becoming the standard in 30 caliber rifles regardless of velocity. The performance of that bullet just keeps getting exponentially better the faster you drive it.

I cannot understand why you have seen what your sharing here? It makes no sense at all to the experiences we have seen in the bush. We do however see hundreds of game shot of every size. There is absolutely no debate regarding velocities effects. The reactions and destruction of tissue are directly proportional to velocity.

Is that an explaination? I am using whitetail as an example. You are saying it is possible and it happens consistently which is a contradicting statement.

Your shotgun analogy is not very scientific either as each deer can and sometimes do act different than each other when being shot. Do you have a video showing a ballistic gell. test showing the pressure waves to support a slow/heavy vs. fast/light bullet?

Well I shot a Fallow with a wide me plat hard cast at 1380 FPS from a 500 JRH and removed a 3 to 4 inch section of lungs and this same bullet will break the shoulder support bone on an Asian Buffalo and exit the off side shoulder.

I don't see what I could haver possibly gained with a hollow point

The 20 gauge PT Gold load is basically a 260gr. 45 caliber pistol bullet going a lot faster than the hottest 454 Casull. They clock around 1,800 fps from a 24" barrel.

The 12 gauge loading is basically a 385 gr. 50 caliber pistol bullet clocking 1,600 from a 24" barrel.

Despite running faster and expanding, the newer 50 caliber projectiles also don't have anything over the old, defunct wadcutter type BRI 50 caliber sabots and certainly not over the larger, yet even slower Brenneke or Foster types, so far as killing goes.

I agree with JWP and how rifles got into this I don't know. It was also about deer not elephants.
I have killed deer with everything legal and since going only to revolvers I can only say you can experience anything from lost deer to exploded meat. The revolver can be misused as often as a rifle. It is not magic and follows the same standards.
There is still a stigma over velocity only that does not fit. There is still book ME figures that mean nothing.
Listen to JWP. We have had disagreements, us two. Simple stuff like a primer but he knows about game.
Whitworth knows too. I back them because there is no bull.
You can listen to me too but after way more then about 400 to 420 deer kills (lost count ages ago.) I might not have enough experience. I shot six this season with revolvers of different calibers and can tell you exactly what each did.
I defer to those with one deer kill.

There is no doubt that at the low end of the velocity spectrum you must use hard cast bullets that provide great penetration.

However once you have plenty of penetration better options become available. This is clearly evidenced by the enormous success of the Barnes TSX bullets. They not only penetrate, but they open up causing astonishing trauma.

Prior to that development the partition was the standard. Another bullet that will penetrate and expand.

To my knowledge nobody shooting a firearm with High available velocity chooses to improve killing power by reducing velocity and selecting solids, hard cast, or metal cased bullets.

There is very little that knocks down deer size game then a 25/06 with a high velocity ballistic tip.

j1r11

Here is another thread that shares many of the thoughts involved here. Additional unrelated detail is also there, but some of the information may help you with the choices you are looking for.

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbth..._357_magnum_bear_load_bullet#Post7172544

A lighter bullet is usually constructed "not as tough" as the heavier bullet, hence it will expand or open easier and more rapid the faster it is pushed.

How would a slower heavier bullet cause more damage? Penetration should be taken out of consideration with.45 cal's on deer sized animal. I fail to see how a WFN of .451 or 2 will do more damage that a HP that has expanded to .750 or so at the same distance/velocity.