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mathman has hit it on the nose.

Very few rifles are accurate enough to group 5 shots as tightly as 3 shots. Even 5-shot groups from benchrest rifles will "open up" a little over 3-shot groups, purely because of the laws of chance.

If you shoot enough shots in a group, the group's diameter will eventually include just about every shot. This is why I test prairie dog rifles with 10-shot groups. Even though the diameter of a 10-shot group doesn't impress many of today's shooters (3/4" is really good) it tells a hell of a lot more about a rifle's accuracy than a 3-shot or even 5-shot group, especially with a hot barrel. And hot barrels are the norm in PD shooting.

One reason 3-shot groups are so popular these days is the chance for a tiny group is so much greater with fewer shots. Then when we shoot one of those semi-accidental one-hole 3-shot groups with our factory rifle we can post it on the Campfire.

This doesn't mean some rifles won't consistently group 3 shots with all the bullet holes touching. Many will, even some factory rifles. I even own a Ruger No. 1 .25-06 that will do it with 75-grain Hornady V-Maxes. But if I shoot a 5-shot group with the same load it's bigger, even if I let the barrel cool down, due to statistical probability.


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Another factor is many of us load hot. If it is cold enough to loose 20-50 fps it may just put you into an acuracy node you arent seeing in hot weather.


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So, if it's just stats then a 5 shot group shot extrememly slowly with plenty of cool down time will be on average be the same as a 5 shotter shot thru a barrel hot enough for frying eggs right?

Dober


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Originally Posted by Mark R Dobrenski
So, if it's just stats then a 5 shot group shot extrememly slowly with plenty of cool down time will be on average be the same as a 5 shotter shot thru a barrel hot enough for frying eggs right?

Dober


No, that's not what I stated or even implied. The poster hypothesized "if heat is not at play" so I answered accordingly. Given a probability distribution, if you take more samples of it you're more likely to see values farther away from its mean.

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Ok....good to know

Dober


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Though if the barrel is a good one, it should be just as accurate whether shot hot or cold.

One factor that can affect group size in cooler weather, especially on calmer days, is warm air from a heated barrel roiling the view through the scope.

Many other factors tend to increase group size as more shots are fired. It's rare to see shooters put out wind flags when testing loads for accuracy, but a 3-mph "gust" can cause so-called fliers even at 100 yards. I don't do serious accuracy testing without putting out at least one or two flags.

Also, a lot of shooters don't check the parallax on their scopes. A little bit of parallax can result in fliers when more shots are fired, due to the shooter not having his eye in exactly the same position behind the scope for each shot.
Then there are variations in holding the rifle for each shot, or just in pulling the trigger.

All of those factors can add to impression sporter-weight barrels "always" starts to wander as it warms up.


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Originally Posted by Mule Deer
battue,

The tight, stiff forend is one factor, but as other people have stated a good barrel doesn't shoot less accurately or change POI when it's hot. Douglas makes good barrels, as do a number of other companies. Many factory barrels are also good, but some aren't.


However, I would think skinny barrels are more affected by heat than those that have a larger diameter. If so, and Melvins rifles still group well even being extremely hot, then his stock and tight bedding must be a significant factor.

Another question would be is heat transfer less of a factor with synthetic stocks vs wood?

Addition: JB, your last reply beat me to the punch and I think you answered some of my questions. Also heat waves coming off the barrel would be less in cold weather and thus may answer part of the 65BRs original question and way some think LW barrels shoot more consistently in cold weather.

Last edited by battue; 12/28/12.

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Stocks and bedding certainly play a role. I've had wood-stocked rifles that sent bullets marching steadily upward as they warmed -- and ceased to do so when restocked with a synthetic.


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Stocks and bedding play a role with all barrels be they skinny or heavy....

Dober


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Originally Posted by battue


Addition: JB, your last reply beat me to the punch and I think you answered some of my questions. Also heat waves coming off the barrel would be less in cold weather and thus may answer part of the 65BRs original question and way some think LW barrels shoot more consistently in cold weather.


actually the heat ways should be worse in cold weather due to the greater temp difference......atleat i would think so....


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Makes sense.

However, I seem to become more aware of the roll on hot days than cold. Then again perhaps I am confusing barrel waves with those coming off the ground.

Last edited by battue; 12/28/12.

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Originally Posted by battue
Makes sense.

However, I seem to become more aware of the roll on hot days than cold.


i think thats just cause its more common, ie you can even see it coming off the ground on really hot days.....looking through a scope i would think the heat waves coming off the barrel would be more pronounced in cold weather though.....i notice them more in cold weather but given what ive picked up in this thread so far, what i call cold weather and what the guys down south are calling cold weather aint the same grin

Last edited by rattler; 12/28/12.

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Originally Posted by Mark R Dobrenski
Stocks and bedding play a role with all barrels be they skinny or heavy....

Dober


It's a good thing barrels don't get offended at being called skinny or fat. I can hear the conversations now...

"How dare he call me a bull barrel!"

"Does this stock make my recoil lug look fat?"

"I used to be a No. 2 contour."


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My mind has to ask the question, and that's if the light barrels shoot as well as the heavy barrels then why have Snipers long toted rigs with heavy tubes on them...?

Thoughts anyone why these guys would carry the weight when they don't need it?

Thx
Dober


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Easier to hold steady, combined with they want suck out every last bit of accuracy they can????


Addition: Just sent some dollars out your way this AM for a new pair of Schnee Outfitter boots. Nice people to deal with.

Last edited by battue; 12/28/12.

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Originally Posted by Mark R Dobrenski
My mind has to ask the question, and that's if the light barrels shoot as well as the heavy barrels then why have Snipers long toted rigs with heavy tubes on them...?

Thoughts anyone why these guys would carry the weight when they don't need it?

Thx
Dober



Military loves long barrels, nothing like a 30" barreled Swede. I hear to this day that longer barrel shotguns hit harder. Hell, factories are still twisting 22/250's with 14" ROT. It's tough to change old dogs.


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Mark,

Some guy did an article for GUN DIGEST or another shooting rag a number of years ago about turning down heavy barrels to see how it affected accuracy. Turned out it really didn't, as long as the barrel he started with was a good one in the first place.

I only have one heavy-barreled varmint rifle anymore, mostly because it's a period piece from the 1960's, a .243 on a Mexican Mauser action with a custom California-style stock. It spoke to me one day at Capital Sports, and for $350 I couldn;t resist.


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battue,

Heat waves off barrels are worst on both hot and cold days. On hot days the barrel heats up quicker, and on cold days the slightest amount of heat from the barrel roils the air more.


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Originally Posted by Mark R Dobrenski
My mind has to ask the question, and that's if the light barrels shoot as well as the heavy barrels then why have Snipers long toted rigs with heavy tubes on them...?

Thoughts anyone why these guys would carry the weight when they don't need it?

Thx
Dober


the original m40 was something like 11 lbs, I think they're pushing 20 lbs now (m40a5 is current?) I recall reading an article that they really are getting too heavy, but who's gonna complain and who's gonna do anything about it?

FWIW, I love shooting my heavy barrel guns (dislike carrying them). Whether it's the barrels, or just the fact that a heavy gun is more stable, or even that the stocks are designed to sit in sandbags better, I definitely can get more consistent tiny groups out of them than my huntin' guns.


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Originally Posted by Steelhead
Military loves long barrels, nothing like a 30" barreled Swede. I hear to this day that longer barrel shotguns hit harder. Hell, factories are still twisting 22/250's with 14" ROT. It's tough to change old dogs.


that's the truth, and the prejudice goes all the way back to those 40" barrel smoothbore musket tomato stakes


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