Home Forums Reloading Varmint Rifles Hodgdon CFE Powder - Popularity Proven

I have been reading a lot lately about the new CFE powder from the good folks at Hodgdon's.
Several of my Varminting buddies also give it high marks in the 223 so I was happy last Thursday when my local pawn/sport shop got in a LARGE shipment of all brands of powder that included some CFE.
It appeared that my friend the owner had ordered about 8 pounds of all kinds of powders including IMR 4350 and virtually all other popular types.
The CFE was the FIRST powder to sell out and did so early on Friday.
As of today (over a week later) finally one other type powder sold out in this "small market" and it was the IMR 4350.
Luckily I snagged a pound of CFE for myself and am intent on trying it in a new to me 223 Remington Varminter and one of my 204's.
Any recommendations for CFE in a 26" barreled 204 with 32 grain bullets would be appreciated.
Just a heads up in this wierd market place that we are in - if you see some CFE powder on a shelf don't put off buying it or you may regret it.
The selling price of this powder here was not bad at all, at S22.25 a pound (no sales tax).
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

What model rifle with 26'' barrel would you be shooting

VG: CFE 223/ 204 Ruger / 32 V Max

29 grs... 3826 fps... 45,400 psi
30.9 Max....4091 fps.....55,000 PSi

Coal: 2.250

Source: Hodgdon 2013 Annual Manual...

Doghunter12: I have 6 Varmint Rifles in caliber 204 Ruger with 26" barrels:
1&2) Ruger 77 V/T's (I have two of these)
3) Ruger #1-V
4) Remington 700 VLS
5&6) Remington XR-100 (I have two of these)
The Ruger #1-V by a very small margin is, as of now, the least accurate of my 204's - it is still rather accurate though shooting groups (5 shots at 100 yards) in the 4's, 5's and 6's consistently - never a flier - so I am going to try to perk this Rifle up a bit accuracy wise.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Seafire: Thank you very much - a printout has been made and testing to commence when the wind dies down.
I see that Hodgdon "Annual Manual" on my local pawn/sport shops shelf - but it is in a sealed clear plastic wrapper and I can not peruse it.
Do you recommend I spend the eight bucks to buy this magazine?
Thanks again
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

VG, you can actually more info here from Hodgdon's online ballistics and it's free.

http://data.hodgdon.com/cartridge_load.asp

we tried it in 4 different rifles it didnt do anything rl10x or h335 wouldnt do.

hoytshooter,

Well, not unless you count the fact that CFE burns a hell of lot cleaner than H335 and gets rid of copper buildup in the bore as you shoot it. Oh, and the new Nosler manual lists CFE223 as the fastest powder with either 32 or 40-grain bullets in the .204. It only lists RL10x with 40's, and CFE223 is 270 fps faster.

MD,
Maybe you could find out from Hodgdon if they are using Tin Dioxide or Bismuth in CFE as the decoppering agent.
I remember reading a statement by Julian Hatcher that they had tried loading shredded tin foil on top of the powder in the old 30.06 at Aberdeen Proving Grounds for copper fouling problems.
After this test DuPont actually came up with a tin (Dioxide) additive to their powders(IMR to be exact) for this specific purpose.
Just wondering if they had a new formula for this or if they just decided to upgrade a 100 year old Idea for marketing purposes only.

well i got 16lbs of rl10x i use it exclusively in 39 gr. blitzkings.in 204.it groups perfect and the cfe 223 didnt goup as well out of my savage.but it did make my buddys ruger shoot better.i guess he is going to make the switch.if it was available and i didnt have 16lbs of powder and my 204 diidnt shoot awesome with rl10x then maybe jus maybe i might be tempted to switch but then theyll come up with another powder that everyone will be jumping all over too.

I don't know about the .223, but I got velocities I didn't think possible with 155's in my .308, with no obvious pressure signs and good accuracy. It seemed a little erratic though, I need to shoot some more of those and see.

I'm very happy with in my .223. 27.5 grs under a 50 grn ballistic tip. groups in the the 3 s out of a rem 700 sporter contour. looking forward to shooting it in my .308.

VG I have a few 204s also, although the only one with a 26" barrel is a XR100. It is the one that I am most interested in shooting at present.I would appreciate your sharing results with the cfe 223. Currently using 28gr. H335 32 gr. vmax chrono. @ 4015 -.5s @100 yds with some seating depth adj. Does a bit better with H335 and 39 gr.sierra. Am waiting for some cfe223 to show up. I really like this rifle and caliber for P. dogs - even in the wind.

Sending PM
Chuck

Doghunter12: Will do.
And when you say the H 335 "does a bit better" when using the 39 grain Sierra, do you mean accuracy wise over the 32 grain Sierra?
Yes the 204 Ruger is an amazing performer - even in the wind.
In all my 204's the 35 grain Bergers shot the best - but those bullets are pricey and hard to find here in SW Montana so I went with the second best performing bullet the 32 grain Sierra Blitz Kings. They are cheaper and more easily found hereabouts.
I do have about 200 Berger 35 grainers left over and may even test them with the CFE powder - just to be doing so.
I use H 4895 and Varget in my batch of 204's as of now.
Have not tried the H 335 in any of them.
Some of the 204 shooters I know argue with me about the 32 grain bullets and the 39/40 grain bullets shooting flatter than one another. They contend the 39/40 grainers shoot flatter.
My research shows the 32 grainers shooting flatter out to just at 500 yards than the 39 and 40 grainers.
At and after 500 yards "normal loadings" in the 204 has the 39/40 grainers assuming flatter shooting status over the 32 grain bullets.
I am fully convinced that the 204 Ruger is now THE BEST all around centerfire Varmint caliber on the market today.
Low recoil, low barrel heat, flat trajectory, flies straight in the wind, amazing accuracy, superb lethality and it is apparently easy on barrels - what else could a person ask for in an all around Varminting cartridge?
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy
I do 99%+ of my Varminting at ranges under 500 yards so the 32 grainers work well for me.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

General Dynamics (manufacturer of CFE and every other spherical propellant Hodgdon sells) lists tin in their general MSDS. Nobody anywhere lists bismuth, even when they definitely use it. Perhaps bismuth doesn't require listing.

That might be the case, since bismuth is considered non-toxic.

I've been shooting some mil surplus Re15 that is supposed to have a decoppering agent in it. The fouling is very dark black which makes me think it must be bismuth. Is CFE fouling also extremely black?

I haven't seen much fouling of any kind in my shooting of CFE223 so far. Dark fouling is usually powder fouling.

De-coppering agents aren't a new deal, but they've become far more effective in recent years due to the powders themselves becoming cleaner burning.

Bismuth as in Pepto Bismol...?

The Bismuth in Pepto reacts with sulfur in salava and gastrointestinal secretions to form Bismuth Sulfide, which is black. Anyone using enough Pepto knows of what I speak...

With bleeding ulcers, stomach acid turns blood black, so Pepto use can sometime cause concern if one doesn't know about bismuth compounds.

It could be sulfur compounds in gunpowder reacting with Bismuth to produce black fouling.

DF

There isn't any significant sulfur content in smokeless powder.

De-coppering agents (whether lead or bismuth) work by forming a brittle combination with copper in the bore. This is blown out by successive shots--or at least that's the way it's supposed to work.

As I mentioned before, this isn't a new idea. In artillery shells, lead is often added by wire or foil in front of the powder charge. Lead works great as a de-coppering agent, but isn't considered environmentally ideal.

Also, much depends on how cleanly the powder itself burns. If the powder burns "dirty" (common with older ball powders), leaving a coating of abrasive additives, the de-coppering agent only blows out the copper on top of the powder fouling, creating alternate layers of powder and slighter amounts of copper.

I've cleaned the barrels of many used rifles that had these alternating "geologic" layers of powder and copper fouling. It's common when shooting traditional ball powders, such as those often used in factory ammo. They meter easily, thus working well when making thousands of rounds, but they don't prevent fouling, even when containing a de-coppering agent.

The CFE223 powder fouling is very black and thicker than the N530 or N133 that I was comparing it to. But it does clean up very easily with only a few patches. I have recently noticed that AA2520 also was very easy to clean with minimal patching whereas Reloder 10X is a bugger to clean out of a barrel...as tough as I have seen.

That's not untypical of powders with de-coppering agents. What you're seeing is probably the agent/copper amalgam, which is quite brittle and pushes out easily.

I've seen the same thing occasionally with Ramshot TAC, a clean-burning ball powder with a de-coppering against, but 3-4 patches gets rid of it. However, if you use such powders consistently in one barrel, the fouling typically decreases, because the copper decreases.

What is the price paid for the de-coppering?

I shoot some pretty smooth bores that don't copper foul.

The price? As much as $30/lb around here right now.

BarryC: The CFE is $22.25 per pound here. If that is what you are referring to?
If you are referring to the powder maybe having some detrimental effects on barrels or velocity then I am not up to speed on that.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Venatic: Thank you for your observations.
I often take my 223's to Prairie Dog colonies and like to shoot to the point of having "fouled barrels" and this information intrigues me - I often clean my Rifles at lunch time out on the prairie and easy cleaning is important to me.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Mule Deer: Thank you very much for your information and insights.
I am becoming more and more excited to use this powder.
Wind is blowing "like 60" here in SW Montana now.
Sheesh.
Thanks again.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

I've read some postings that seem to say cfe burns much cleaner w/ near Max loads rather than milder loadings......I guess I can buy into that idea but has anyone got some input here?

VarmintGuy,

You're welcome.

Aside from powders like TAC and CFE223, Dyna Bore Coat will permanently reduce copper fouling in any rifle barrel, and make cleaning easier--if you ever need it.

Personally, between improved powders and Dyna Bore Coat I haven't bothered to clean a varmint rifle in the field (or even at night during 2-3 day shoots) for a number of years. The rifles just keep shooting as well as they did with 10 rounds down the bore.

I've noticed my rifles with DBC show little or no copper fouling, even after a lot of rounds. I shoot my 6.5-284 all season without cleaning. Then I clean it whether it needs it or not. Just a habbit, I guess.

DF

$$ cost could be one thing. As they say there is no free lunch. Maybe it could be less energy per grain, or foul heavily, or have a high flame temp. I don't know. Just wondering if there's a trade off compared to powders that don't have the CFE chemicals.

BarryC: I think I see where you are headed now and I am as yet not able to answer that part of your inquiry.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

BarryC,

No, there's no downside to the more recent rifle powders with de-coppering agents.

Let me back up a little before going further. The technology isn't new. Artillery shells have been loaded with a de-coppering agent for a long time, usually a piece of lead foil or wire at the top of the propellant charge.

Some older rifle powders also contain de-coppering agents, but they're usually older ball powders which do tend to burn dirty. Aftr enough shots the powder fouling covers up the copper fouling, so the de-coppering agent doesn't work as well.

More recently, however, ball powders have been developed that burn a lot cleaner, including Ramshot TAC and CFE223. These do result in MUCH cleaner bores and far less need to clean them. One of my rifles is a .223 that will go at least 500 rounds between cleanings when fired with TAC, and will still be shooting the same excellent groups. When I do clean it (just to see how much powder fouling and copper are there), it takes 3-4 patches with a decent solvent to get down to bare metal.

So far my results with CFE223 indicate similar results, though I'm waiting for prairie dog season before shooting several hundred rounds without cleaning. So far the only significant difference between TAC and CFE223 I've found is CFE is slower burning. As a result it provides another choice in the same performance range.

Both provide some of the fastest velocities for appropriate cartridges of any powders. As noted above, CFE223 is the fastest powder listed for both 32 and 40-grain bullets in the .204 Ruger in the latest Nosler manual, and TAC is very fast in the .204 as well, especially 32's. I've also found both to be very fast in the .223, and TAC to be one of the very best powders in the .17 Fireball as well.

All ball powders are double-based, so do burn a little hotter, but I've been shooting TAC in that non-cleaning .223 for a dozen years and thousands of rounds now, and the rifle shoots very well. I did smooth the throat a little last year with some fire-lapping rounds, but it still puts 5 shots into under 1/2".

A gunsmith friend and I have been running other experiements to see how long bores can go between cleanings. He's built several benchrest rifles for friends who only compete with each other, using Lilja barrels that have been treated with Dyna Bore-Coat. At least a couple of the guys have shot their rifles 2000+ rounds now without cleaning, and the rifles are still grouping in the .1's and .2's.

I don't know how long your barrels go before needing to be cleaned. Some people think 75-100 rounds is a lot. With TAC and Dyna Bore-Coated factory (not custom hand-lapped) barrels I count on being able to shoot 250-300 rounds before even thinking of cleaning.

Mule Deer: Thank you again for sharing your additional thoughts and information on this type of powder.
Very informative.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

I am using CFE in my .22-250 with great results. No copper just black fouling that cleans easy. I have not run the loads thru the chrony yet but accuracy is great. I did not have any huge luck with it in my .223 yet though as far as getting an accurate load.

WSM_Shooter: Interesting results you got there.
I have a couple of friends shooting CFE in their 223's and they are/were happy with their results accuracy wise.
This brings to mind the old sayings:
"Every Rifle is an individual"!
And:
"Handloading causes questions"!
I brought online a Remington 700 SS Rifle in caliber 270 WSM I love the looks of this Rifle and the way it shoots but have not taken any Big Game with it as yet - its like a back up Rifle right now.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

VarmitGuy,
I love my .270WSM. It shoots awesome and I took 2 deer with it this past season. A doe at 300 yards and a 9 point at 200ish yards. I am shooting the Nosler 150 grain NBT over Retumbo powder. This was it's first season out and it made me happy.

WSM_Shooter: Good for you on the double Deer harvests with the 270 WSM.
I have two friends that use 270 WSM's - one shoots a 140 grain Nosler of some type and the other shoots the 150 grain Nosler Ballistic Tips. They both Hunt Deer mostly but are in "Elk and Black Bear country" as they do so, and they wanted to step up a tad from their old reliable 270 Winchesters.
I hope to use mine for a harvest this spring (Black Bear) or this fall (Deer, Elk or a Bear).
Keep up the good work with the 270 WSM.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

VarmitGuy:
Thank you, I have loads worked up for 130, 140,and 150 grain BT's as well as 130 and 150 Partitions. My rifle likes 150 grain bullets best but will shoot 3 shots sub 1 inch with all mentioned loads.

Is CFE a double-based ball powder?

Or is it single-based Extreme powder?


If choosing only one to have on hand, would you guys go with TAC or CFE?

I never used Tac so I can not compare. CFE is a Ball powder.

DakotaDeer,

All ball powders are double-based, and both TAC and CFE223 are ball powders.

CFE223 is enough slower (though not much) than TAC that I have both on hand, giving me a choice.

I've been using TAC for a dozen years, a lot longer than CFE223, so have found far more uses for it. TAC works VERY well anywhere IMR4895 would in a top-pressure load. I've found it outstanding in the .17 Fireball, .204 Ruger, .223 with 40-55 grain bullets, .308 with 150-168's, .358 Winchester and .350 Remington with 225-250's, .405 Winchester with 300-400's, and .416 Remington with 350-400's. Probably have forgotten about some other applications as well.

Haven't had time to do as much with CFE223, but it's been outstanding in cartridges from the .223 with bullets from 50 grains up to the 8x57 with 150-170 grain bullets.

It also gives top velocities in the 6.5 Grendel.

I was out again today with the .22-250 verifying zero on the load using the CFE powder. Only took a few shots to really powder foul. The rifle is just starting to show some copper fouling though in an unknown amount of shooting. I have also been testing loads not loaded with the CFE powder. My chronograph crapped out and had to be sent back to PACT so I have no idea on velocity. I keep saying I am going to dig out my old Chrony cheap-O but it is so fussy I get aggravated with it.

WSM_Shooter: Well if no velocities became available how about the accuracy - any good news there?
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

VarmintGuy accuracy for my 22-250 is outstanding.
40 grains of CFE223 under a 45 grain sierra sp with a CCI small rifle primer is my load. Have not gotten much range time but it is producing one ragged hole when I watch the wind. Really need more range time with the rifle and load but it is a winner!

Got my chronograph back from Pact yesterday so I got out this morning. Only a 3 shot average as the wind was not friendly and I had to get home to work up the garden. But 40 grains of CFE223 and the 45 grain Sierra gave me 3919.3 fps. Darn wind was pushing me from 1/2" to 1" at 100. If the wind is not blowing any place on earth it is at our club!

I loaded 5 rounds for my CZ 204 yesterday to get an idea how this stuff shoots. 29 gr of CFE under a 39 gr Sierra lit with a Federal 205M put three right into one ragged hole with the other two just not quite touching the group at 10 o'clock and 4 o'clock. If I ever get back to the pd towns, I think I'll be using this in my 204.

222Sako & WSM Shooter: I have noted both of your recommended loads and have them stashed safely inside my Handloaders Log Book.
Thanks and keep up the good shooting.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Varmintguy; I hope to continue to work with this powder once I can get my grubby little paws on more. I only have around half a pound left so I can't play much. I am in the process of cleaning the 22-250 as I write this so I will report if the copper has gotten any worse. So far I am just cleaning black powder fouling out.

im looking for some h335 powder in 8 lb keg. any body have some for sale without selling my house to get it.

romeojr

welcome to the 'fire
we have a great classifieds ad section for requests such as yours. try it

Bite me Sako, don't be a rude mofo. Try that.

Just a heads up for anyone around Memphis, the sportsmans warehouse in Southaven MS has a bunch of CFE 223 on the shelf. They don't have much else, but a bunch of CFE.

Crow hunter: That is interesting, as my local pawn/sport shop recently got in a batch of it when so many other powders are really hard to come by.
I have been to two sporting goods stores of recent, that have posted signs saying they have quit carrying powders "until further notice".
Worrisome.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Must have just arrived, I was through there a few weeks ago and pickings were slim. A few 40gr. 22 cal bullets, no 30cal at all, NO PRIMERS. I did buy a pound of RL15, and it was the last one. This time last year the shelves in that store were LOADED with reloading supplies.

Romeojr: If you anywhere near SW Montana my local pawn sport shop has several 1 pound bottles of H 335 powder as of 1000 hours 4/09/2013.
Their phone number is 406-683-9844.
Best of luck in your search.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGy

Got out with the 22-250 again today. Shot 5-3 shot groups trying the 52 grain A-Max and CFE223. Picture shows the results. 37-39 grains in 1/2 grain increments. Starting velocity average was 3584 FPS and max load was 3872 FPS. I called the shot marked me in the last group. I lost concentration just as I touched her off. Edited to add copper fouling is still at a minimum.

I've had great luck with TAC in the 308 but haven't done as much work with CFE-223. Is it one of those powders that needs top pressures for best performance?

thanks,


Okie John

Locate a Sportsman's Warehouse, or they can ship it to your closest store.

Our local one has been having H 335 in one pounders and 8 pounders shipped in on a regular basis the last 3 or 4 months.

Same with CFE 223....which I don't use. 1 and 8 pound kegs.

I don't use CFE 223 because it needs a full case to perform best... other powders are more economical... which is important if you shoot a lot. I get roughly 250 rounds or a little less of a pound of CFE. In the varmint fields I shoot other powder that I get 550 plus rounds out of a pound...Unique I get over 700 rounds out of one pound of powder... and those loads are just fine for destroying sage rats out to 300 yds, if you know how to use Kentucky Windage on some of the latter reticles available.

You may not have noticed, but that post was 10 years old. I don't know where he was looking 10 years ago, but I don't remember it being that expensive back then???? Even todays prices won't break the bank:


Love the powder in my 308w though:






Flings those 168 and 175's pretty well.

Yeah Lawrence, once in a blue moon, I miss the date of a post...

Guess this was one of them...

But I still don't like H 335 and I still don't use CFE 223, because its not economically efficient.

Seafire: I was perusing a distant gunshop last week and they had CFE 223 powder for $34.99 a pound (no sales tax in Montana)!
That is rather cost effective - as I have seen it other places for $5.00+ more per pound.
Anyone interested the phone number of the shop is 406-682-4210.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

VG"

Cost effective to me is how much powder you use to get a given velocity.

14 grains of Blue Dot in a 223 will give me 3300 fps....with a 40 grain V Max.

29 grains of CFE 223 might give me a little more, at over twice the amount of grains of powder...

so I get 500 rounds of ammo per a pound of powder....29 grains of CFE will give me less than 250 rounds per pound of powder.

I know you'll concede 500 rounds per pound of powder, stretches out the varmint budget more than just < 250 rounds per pound of powder, especially at current prices and availability. Which one is more cost effective is obvious.

Its also a lot more easier on barrel life, and extra bonus... along with even lighter recoil, allowing one to see your hits in the scope without using sight picture due to recoil...

Explains why I have multiple 223s with 25 to 30,000 rounds down the bore, and can still deliver minute of sage rat out to 250 yds....

9 grains of Unique is even more of an economical good thing.

Makes sense. I know where a shop is that has 2 8 pound kegs of blue dot. It's a very small shop, that does not get many people. I ended up buying longshot there a month ago, since I have not seen that powder for a while anywhere. Good deals too. Same with the bullets they had. They had some 6mm 85gr partitions for $33/box.

Blue Dot doesn't come in 8 lb kegs, unless its a new move by Alliant. I haven't seen it.

Their 5 lb keg, now only contains 4 pounds.

Seafire

What’s your favorite bolt action .223 rifle?

Inquiring minds want to know

I've got Bolt Actions that I like and none that I don't like...because of the latter I wouldn't have bought them.

Price was always on sale or a good deal.... I shoot a lot of 223 rounds..

have one AR, never shot it.. bought it when Trump got into office, price dropped from $969 under Obummer to $369 under Trump... only reason I have it...

Thanks for he TCM work you sent to me.. I was out chronographing some of my own this morning.. when I get more done, I'll share with you my friend...

thanks.,

Thought about this a little more... If I had to pick one of mine I like better than most of the others...

Model 70 Featherweight in 223.....Feed it Blue Dot loads like most of my other 223s for the varmint fields.

The Featherweight has taken a couple of black tails over the years...

That’s good to know. They looked like 8 pound kegs. Didn’t look closely though. It’s in older jugs. Keeping in mind, I buy my schidt at different places than a lot of you guys do. I actually get out and check all the little mom and pop shops. I know some of the new shotgun powders are sold in 12 oz instead of 1 pound. That’s a load of schidt huh? My buddy was complaining about that the other day.

I like BLC2 better, AR Comp better. CFE can be a pain in the but when you change from it to another powder. Often causes accuracy issues for a number of shots and I have never thought it was the best for accuracy in any 223.

Good powder, I think it works better in the 204 Ruger and 308 win vs. a 223 Rem. Haven't seen any weird accuracy problems with it in those cartridges, but never could get excellent accuracy in my 223's with it. Pretty much gave up on it, until I bought a 204 last year. It gave sub moa 10 shot groups pretty easily:


I also have 2 308's that love it. However, I think one of them prefers IMR8208XBR. YMMV.

I haven’t tried it in the 308 yet. I’ll hve to give it a go soon.

It has been a few years so I don't remember the details, but a shooting range acquaintance was logging some impressive speeds with 168 grain Berger Classic Hunters out of a Rem 700 VTR which has an effective barrel length of 20".

My boys 7mm 08 loves CFE223