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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jan 2009
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John - I recently picked up one of the Ruger 77/17 Hornets from Capital Sports and have been trying to work the bugs out. Mine's been pretty frustrating - I haven't been getting the stellar results that Huntsman has. A pard of mine here swears by his and he's only shot factory loads in it and isn't interested in loading for it because it shoots the factory stuff so well.
I believe my problems may be related to inconsistent head space from a very sloppy bolt. Primers do back out noticeably on factory loads, but not so much on handloads after partial sizing. Accuracy has been pretty erratic with both, but I'm not ready to give up yet.
I've worked with Lil Gun from 9.7 to 10.0 and have had the best results at 9.9 with 20 gr Noslers. One thing I've noticed with Lil Gun is that with any charge weight, the bolt seems to want to stick. Not on bolt lift so much, but pulling the bolt back to extract the fired case. My pard experienced the same thing with his when I had him try Lil Gun. I've been reading some on the Saubier site about the 17 Hornet and it seems to be a concensus over there that Lil Gun is too fast for the 17 H and 1680 is a better choice. I know others who have been getting great results with Lil Gun - go figure. I've worked up to a little over 11 grains of 1680 per the chart that was posted above and the primers are very round and no sticky bolt. I have more loaded from 11.6 to 12.2 and will try that as soon as I can get back out. The Ruger I owned had the same issue with pulling the bolt back. I noticed that it worked fine without the magazine, which led me to look for issues with the mag. I shaved a very small amount off of the top and front leading edge of the magazine's left side feed rail lip with a file, rounding off the lip as it was a sharp angle. This cured it instantly. Basically, the bolt was "sticking" on the magazine, which was protruding up a bit far.
Last edited by prairie_goat; 05/17/13.
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Campfire Member
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I have 17 Hornet ammo , brass, bullets, primers, reloading dies, 4-16 AO scope , military sling and a ranch where I can shoot prairie dogs. But Cabelas has not filled my order for a CZ Varmint 17 Hornet. I was going to try some Lil Gun powder that I have but now I m going to get some 1680 for my first test loads. I can get by using my 17 HM2, 17 HMR, and 17 Fireball rifles . Im an old timer, started shooting p dogs in 1949 and like trying out new prairie dog rifles.
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Apr 2006
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Thanks for the tip prairie_goat. I'll have to take a look at that - there does seem to be some sharp edges on the magazine. I've also noticed that feeding the last round from the magazine tends to bind a bit. You say you "owned" a Ruger - I take it you didn't keep it? I'd be curious as to the particulars on that decision as I'm contemplating letting this one go if it doesn't come around pretty soon.
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Joined: Jan 2009
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 8,891 |
Overall I was happy with the cartridge and rifle, but I've been whittling down the arsenal and keeping rifles of utilitarian nature and jettisoning those that are more specialized. Plus, reloading those little cases and little bullets is kind of a pain.
If I had kept it, I would have whacked the barrel down to 20", and dropped it into an older pattern (no longer made) Mcmillan 77/22 stock.
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Joined: May 2011
Posts: 56,249
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 56,249 |
11 grains of IMR 4198 and a 20 grain VMax is your huckleberry. My rifle was a custom Anschutz 1432-1434 with a German barrel that shot extremely well, about 1/4-3/8" off a good rest. Velocity is forgotten to time. A heavy weight barrel is NOT necessary to get accuracy out of this caliber. I also had similar accuracy with plain old Remington 25 grain HP. I could usually hit a squirrel in the eye at 75 yards with that combination.
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An 8 dollar driveway boy living in a T-111 shack
LOL
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Joined: Oct 2013
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Oct 2013
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The last time that bear ate a lawyer he had the runs for 33 days!
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Joined: May 2011
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 15,861 |
There are 2 rules to success:
1. Never tell everything that you know.
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Joined: Jul 2001
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Campfire Kahuna
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OP
Campfire Kahuna
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Since starting this thread I've done considerable more experimenting with the CZ .17 Hornet, both with loads and in the field. The cartridge has become my main long-range choice for "gophers" (here in Montana mostly Richardson's ground squirrels, but also in some areas Columbian ground squirrels) when the .17 HMR isn't quite enough to reach some of 'em. Partly this is because it's easy to drop 100+ rounds in a shirt pocket and go on a walkabout. This can also be done with my .22 Hornet and .22 K-Hornet, but they're not nearly as easy to hit with as the flatter-shooting .17 Hornet beyond .17 HMR range.
But the CZ has also become my primary prairie dog rifle. Not only is it easy to hit with out to 300 yards (which takes in 90% of PD shooting) but recoils even less than a .22 Hornet, so it's easy to spot my own shots, whether hits or misses. With 20-grain plastic-tips (Hornady V-Max's or Nosler Varmageddons) at 3600-3700 fps, it really does the job; in fact on one PD shoot this summer my hunting partners at first thought I was using a .223 or something similar, because of the way it flipped dogs.
Plus, brass has become very available and CHEAP since 2013. In fact I sometimes shoot factory ammo because I can't handload it any cheaper, and the resulting fired brass is even cheaper than I can buy component brass. And only around 12 grains of powder is required for all this performance.
Have also found the .17 Hornet performs to its potential with a wider variety of powders than the .22 Hornet. My primary powder is the spherical Accurate 1680, since it provides top velocities and superb accuracy with easy metering, but several other powders also do about as well.
H4198 is just as good as 1680 but more temperature-tolerant, though being an extruded powder it doesn't meter as easily, sometimes requiring a little jostling to get charges through the tiny neck. However, Accurate LT-32 is also more temp-resistant than 1680, and despite being an extruded powder the granules are tiny enough to meter easily. Accurate 2200 also does pretty well with 20-grain bullets in a pinch, and is a good choice for those who prefer 25-grain bullets, along with H322, Norma 200 and RL-7.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 28,364
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 28,364 |
Just a “gee whiz” comment, but I remember when the .222 Remington was such a hotshot because it was an honest 250-300 yard varmint cartridge and the .25-06 was good to a quarter mile (400 yards!!!) and beyond. The .22 Hornet itself was good to 150, maybe 200 yards with a good rifle and shooter.
Now folks are throwing rice grains at warp 9 from tiny little rounds and killing stuff way the heck out there. It’ll sure be interesting to see what comes along in the next 40-50 years.
Gunnery, gunnery, gunnery.
Hit the target, all else is twaddle!
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Joined: May 2016
Posts: 60,207
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: May 2016
Posts: 60,207 |
Thanks for the update.
My buddy comes out on leave once in a while. He brought a couple of .17 hornets with him. I have been wanting one ever since.
I like 1680 too, and use it along with R7 most of the time in a .17 fireball. My Ar 15 in .221 did not like the 1680 though.
I am MAGA.
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Campfire Kahuna
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OP
Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jul 2001
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1680 really sucked in my .221 with 40-grain bullets, but shot OK with 50's. But I didn't do any experimenting with primers, partly because Li'l Gun worked so well.
One thing I've noticed while discussing the .221 with other shooters is individual rifles seem to prefer RL-7 or Li'l Gun, but not both.
In the .17 Fireball I got such outstanding results with TAC (the first powder I tried) that I never experimented a vast amount. Benchmark, 8208 and H322 also shot well but not any better than TAC, and TAC metered easier through the little neck.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
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Posts: 60,207
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: May 2016
Posts: 60,207 |
My friend in the Navy just found a .221 Remington Classic and gave it to me as a present. Along with that I have a CZ, an AR-15, and xp 100 and a Remington 700 Laminate all in .221.
The 1680 would not cycle the action on the AR, I got good results with the R7. The 1680 was okay in the laminate Remington. I never did try Lil Gun, partly cause I dont like the name and partly because the faster powders did not seem to work in that AR. Probably should have had a carbine length gas system on it.
I guess I am a R7 guy, but have tried h335 and H322 with good results, however that was before I had a chronograph.
I just picked up some 20 grain Varamegeddon hollow points in Great Falls, and I have some Tac. I will try that in the .17 Fireball tonight! The neighbors prairie dogs aint gonna shoot themselves! Thanks for the tip.
The store in Great Falls had .17 Win Mag and .17 Hornet. For the same price you can get twice the .17 win mag rounds. Have you tried that cartridge yet?
Last edited by Jim_Conrad; 07/26/16.
I am MAGA.
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Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,052
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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Yes, I have, but couldn't get a Savage B-Mag rifle to shoot accurately enough for rodents, though it was OK for larger varmints.
While fooling with it, however, I tried some of the CCI .17 HMR ammo for the Savage A17 autoloader, and it not only was superbly accurate in my CZ 452 but got 2850-2900 fps, far more than advertised. (Some other people have found the same thing in bolt actions.) The .17 WSM ammo got around 2950 in the B-Mag, not enough difference to fool with, and the A17 ammo is usually as cheap or cheaper than .17 WSM. Found out it works great on prairie dogs....
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: May 2016
Posts: 60,207 |
I have not purchased a .17 rimfire yet, probably will lean towards a cz in .17 HMR now.
You wouldnt be willing to share your .17 fireball load would you?
I had a load of 19.7 of Tac written down with a 20 grn V max, but I dont recall shooting it.
I am MAGA.
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Joined: Jul 2001
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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Ramshot's data lists 20.7 grains with the 20 Hornady V-Max for 4057 fps from a 24" barrel. I tried various charges up to that to see what shot best, but as I recall was using anywhere from 19.5 to 20.5 grains, depending on the primer and bullet.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
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Joined: May 2016
Posts: 60,207
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: May 2016
Posts: 60,207 |
Thanks. I am out fighting fire, otherwise I would have gotten some loaded tonight.
I am MAGA.
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Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 15
New Member
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New Member
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Since starting this thread I've done considerable more experimenting with the CZ .17 Hornet, both with loads and in the field. The cartridge has become my main long-range choice for "gophers" (here in Montana mostly Richardson's ground squirrels, but also in some areas Columbian ground squirrels) when the .17 HMR isn't quite enough to reach some of 'em. Partly this is because it's easy to drop 100+ rounds in a shirt pocket and go on a walkabout. This can also be done with my .22 Hornet and .22 K-Hornet, but they're not nearly as easy to hit with as the flatter-shooting .17 Hornet beyond .17 HMR range.
But the CZ has also become my primary prairie dog rifle. Not only is it easy to hit with out to 300 yards (which takes in 90% of PD shooting) but recoils even less than a .22 Hornet, so it's easy to spot my own shots, whether hits or misses. With 20-grain plastic-tips (Hornady V-Max's or Nosler Varmageddons) at 3600-3700 fps, it really does the job; in fact on one PD shoot this summer my hunting partners at first thought I was using a .223 or something similar, because of the way it flipped dogs.
Plus, brass has become very available and CHEAP since 2013. In fact I sometimes shoot factory ammo because I can't handload it any cheaper, and the resulting fired brass is even cheaper than I can buy component brass. And only around 12 grains of powder is required for all this performance.
Have also found the .17 Hornet performs to its potential with a wider variety of powders than the .22 Hornet. My primary powder is the spherical Accurate 1680, since it provides top velocities and superb accuracy with easy metering, but several other powders also do about as well.
H4198 is just as good as 1680 but more temperature-tolerant, though being an extruded powder it doesn't meter as easily, sometimes requiring a little jostling to get charges through the tiny neck. However, Accurate LT-32 is also more temp-resistant than 1680, and despite being an extruded powder the granules are tiny enough to meter easily. Accurate 2200 also does pretty well with 20-grain bullets in a pinch, and is a good choice for those who prefer 25-grain bullets, along with H322, Norma 200 and RL-7. Hi John, good to see you've stuck with the sweet little .17HH. I bought one in April of this year. Like you, I found that the factory stuff was outstanding and also cheaper to shoot than buying all the components initially. I've since accumulated about 400 brass, all of them from factory loads except one box of 50. My intention all along was/is to reload, but man, that Hornady factory stuff shoots amazingly well. I was out to the range today with a box of factory loaded 20gr VMax, as well 50 handloaded 25gr, half Rem HP power-lokt, the other half VMax. Until today I've been using only Lil Gun as 1680 appears to be unobtainium here in Canada. But the Lil Gun is just too volatile, and I've never been able to achieve consistent, reliable pressure or accuracy. It is extremely temperature sensitive stuff. Last time out to the range, a couple weeks back, and chronographing 3 shot strings, the first two would be within 5-10 fps of each other (~3720) and the third shot would jump by 100fps. This happened with more than one string; I concluded that after the first two shots, the chamber was heating up sufficiently that the third shot would be crazy. All that to say that today's loads were with H4198. The groups I was getting were consistent with what I've come to expect from the 17HH (.75 at 200yds). What a difference! I think I'm going to abandon Lil Gun. I have a stash of 750 of the Rem 25grs and would like to work up a consistent, accurate load, working primarily with 4198 and RE7. What do you think? And what has your experience been with the 20 grainers using powders other than 1680? BTW, I had some factory 20gr VMax with me today; I use it as a baseline if I'm getting erratic results with my handloads to make sure my scope, etc, are OK. I thought I would foul my bore (cleaned my rifle this morning before going to the range) before clocking my handloads. Less than .25" at 100yds for 3 shots, which is typical of this stuff.
Last edited by HarpBoy; 09/21/16.
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Posts: 60,052
Campfire Kahuna
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OP
Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,052 |
Several people (including me) have had similar experiences with Li'l Gun in the .17 Hornet.
H4198 works well with 20-grain bullets, in fact in terms it's a very close second to 1680 in my rifle in both velocity and accuracy. The only problem is it doesn't run from a powder measure into those little necks easily, which slows down ammo production when cranking out lots of ammo. An extruded powder that does flow nicely, shoots well, and gets 3500 or so with 20's is Accurate LT-30. Like H4198, its also supposed to be temperature-resistant.
Have had my best luck with 25's using Accurate 2200, but RL-7 and H322 have also been very good.
If you have a chance to try any of the Hornady 15.5 grain NTX loads, they're also very accurate in my rifle, with an average muzzle velocity of around 3850 fps.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
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Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 51
Campfire Greenhorn
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Campfire Greenhorn
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 51 |
Good thread you guys have going here. A lot of good input.
I picked up a CZ 527 varmint a while back. Been playing with it trying to find a load it likes. Have been using 20gr Hornady, did pick up 500 of the mid south 17's. Have yet to taste test them.
Been using CCI BR primers from the get go.
VV120 is nonexistent in this part of the country. I will try some sooner or later.
Tried lil gun with poor results and gave up early as feed back mirrored my results.
I have been playing with H4198 and 1680.
I am topped out with the H4198. Pretty much a full case. I use a 6" drop tube and my old Belding and Mull. Not fast but about as good as it gets with stick powders imho. H4198 may not be the fastest but shows excellent promise. Horizontal stringing.
1680 shows some pretty good groups but am still creeping up on a top end book load. I was warned early on to err on the side of caution with this cartridge as it can spike quickly.
I also picked up a pound of 2200 to taste test. Going to play with it in the 223 also. I have some of the old data2200 powder, I hope it is the same but I doubt I can be that lucky.
Have not tried 296/H110 as others results didn't look to be worth the effort.
I am going to play with OAL and see if that gains me anything.
This rifle had about 100 rounds through it when I got it. The gent that had it said it was a PITA to load for and factory ammo was to pricey. So I got it at a good price, as it came with a fair bit of extras.
Jeff
Last edited by jshks; 09/24/16.
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Campfire Kahuna
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OP
Campfire Kahuna
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Some people apparently do have a hard time loading .17 cases, either with handling the little bullets, or chamfering problems inside the case mouth. All the .17 bullets I've seen are flat-base and after a friend collapsed several necks one day he sold his rifle. I can't recall collapsing any necks, and have loaded thousands of rounds--but I trim them in a Gracey tool that chamfers as it trims.
Will be interested to hear how the Midsouth hollow-points shoot in your rifle. I shoot plastic-tipped 20's on prairie dogs, having found they make a difference in both flat trajectory and explosiveness, but 20-grain hollow-points work fine for ground squirrels, as most are shot inside 200 yards. Have had great luck with Berger and Nosler Varmageddon 20-grain HP's but the Midsouth bullets are considerably cheaper.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
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