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Originally Posted by Trappererick
I am branching out into some long range hunting for crows, chucks, and coyotes. My ranges will be legit shots out to 800 yards with most between 400-600. The gun will be built on a short action 308 bolt face so that is where it must start.

I need help coming up with a caliber and scope. My thoughts were maybe a 6.5 Creedmore, 250 Savage AI, or maybe even a straight 308. As for glass I need something that won't cost more than my house payment and be simple and tough.

Give me some ideas.
I had the same idea and went with the Savage 12F 6.5x284 Target rifle and mounted a NF on it. Shots to 800 yds are easily attainable with practise and good reloading technique. You won't have to morgage the house to get it either.


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Originally Posted by dave7mm
Lots of used Nightforces around for low $.
Do yourself a favor and get a real scope, not an excuse...
dave


smile I think I said that..
Theres a reason Nightforce is the defacto standard for 1000 benchrest.
Pile of nightforces on the line at Ridgway.
Dialing from 850 to 900,950 and 1000 and back again.
I havent talked to anyone yet thats had to send one back.
One of the most winning rifles on the line has a March 35-55 eyepiece zoom scope.
The eyepiece zoom scope is in a league of its own.
dave




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Originally Posted by rcamuglia
Can you post some evidence like targets before and after, or do you only have hearsay as evidence?

I've posted pics of a Nightorce that failed after 2 shots. That's fact documented.

Not arguing that any scope, including Leupold, can go bad or be bad from the factory. I've had some go wrong, sent them in, and they've been fixed correctly and expediently.

My experience with Leupold I've laid out right here. One-shot long range kills, long range groups with cheap 400$ base models, groups with upper end tactical models, and accomplishments in competition with those models after thousands of rounds of use over multiple barrels on the same rifle/scope combo.

It's show and tell time. And not just tell


Posting picts does tend to help separate out the keyboard hunters. OP asked about coyotes so here are a few.

My First (1990) LR coyote @ 810yds. Leupold 4.5-14X50 on a 1" tube. Scope is still in service.
[Linked Image]

800yd coyote. 1st Gen 30mm SF 4.5-14X50mm Leupold. Scope is still in service.
[Linked Image]

750yd coyote. 1st Gen 30mm SF 4.5-14X50mm Leupold. Scope is still in service.
[Linked Image]



600yd coyote. 2nd Gen 30mm SF 4.5-14x50mm. I have that scope on one of my ARs and it is still perfect. Several barrels have died under that optic.
[Linked Image]

1017yd coyote. 3rd Gen 30mm SF 4.5-14x50mm.
[Linked Image]

703yd coyote. same scope as above but three years and thousands of rounds later. Never lost zero and tracks better than I can shoot.
[Linked Image]

We are blessed with a lot of good scopes these days but I find the 4.5-14 Leupold works better for me than anything else I have tried. smile

Originally Posted by Formidilosus
Naval Crane has stated NF has less than a 1% failure rate. The S&B PSR scopes around 2%. Depending on the model, Leupold variable Mark 4's 7-15%.


I assume you are referring to NSWC, Crane Division. I would love to see that statement if you have a link.

It is pretty interesting that NSWC, Crane Division has awarded Leupold the new contract for the ECOS-O Optic for SOCOM. laugh


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Hey John...how ya been? You need to come down and go shoot some antelope with us this fall..got my 6.5 up and running....it is sporting one of those POS MK 4's


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smile




.


Originally Posted by Bristoe
The people wringing their hands over Trump's rhetoric don't know what time it is in America.
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Originally Posted by eh76
Hey John...how ya been? You need to come down and go shoot some antelope with us this fall..got my 6.5 up and running....it is sporting one of those POS MK 4's


Keith,
Busy. I actually drew a 110 tag this year so antelopes close to home are in trouble. smile

You know it is just a matter of time before that MK 4 explodes and pokes your eye out. laugh


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Geez JB,

What the heck is going on?

You show up with some tangible, objective evidence and the entire Leupold Hate Squad turns up Deaf and Dumb.

ROTFLMAO!




Originally Posted by Bristoe
The people wringing their hands over Trump's rhetoric don't know what time it is in America.
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There is no tangible evidence. Posting pictures of coyotes shot and Leupold scopes isn't tangible evidence.



John, I will find out if I can post the entire document.

As for the ECOS, is it a Mark 4? What reticle is in it and why did they select it?

For those that do not know, it is a Mark 6 3-18x44mm and has a Horus Tremor reticle. As for why it was selected: mainly because it is the smallest, lightest optic that fulfilled the need. It is not for dedicated "sniper" use. It is mainly for gas guns to cover the usable range of M4's, SCAR's and Recce's.


Why are all new Leupold contract LR scopes (indeed almost all new scopes) contracted with Horus reticles? Really two reasons- one: is that it offers advantages in multiple target engagements, two: and a big reason is that the issued Leupold variable Mark 4's are notorious for not adjusting correctly or consistently. It was an easy sale. When the Mark 4 LR M3's showed up on the 110's, there were a lot of problems and dudes just simply started using holds for everything instead of dialing.

The Leupold 2.5-8x36mm that came on the MK12's had the same issues. Hence the reason NAVSPECWAR has used the 2.5-10X24 and now x32 almost exclusively.

This isn't me hating on Leupold. I have a sentimental attachment to them and I want them to be the best scopes made, which is why I am very optimistic about the new stuff from them, but their variable Mark 4 line and hunting line have too many failures. For the same money one can get scopes that adjust and track correctly.

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Formidilosus,
If you dont mind my asking.
What is your position that you get to monkey with all the stuff you monkey with?

dave


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Originally Posted by Formidilosus
There is no tangible evidence. Posting pictures of coyotes shot and Leupold scopes isn't tangible evidence.


Well it darn sure gives me chance to post some hero picts and stroke my already huge ego. shocked

On a more serious note it does demonstrate that even a hack like me can kill a few coyotes at distance using Leupold optics. Kind of in keeping with the OPs original questions.

As to the hunting line having too many failures I just have to disagree. I have used the VX III way too much and I mean a big way too much to even sort of buy in that line.

I get that other optics work. From where I sit the best �others� are still heavier and bigger than the comparable Leupy and therefore seem silly but I do understand that others can work if you are willing to pack the extra weight and bulk. Question is simply �Why?�

Here is a 1 mile group shot in front of more than a few 24hr Campfire Members in some rather crappy conditions. Quit telling me that VX IIIs don't "track" because I know that is is silly.
[Linked Image]


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Originally Posted by JohnBurns
Originally Posted by Formidilosus
There is no tangible evidence. Posting pictures of coyotes shot and Leupold scopes isn't tangible evidence.


Well it darn sure gives me chance to post some hero picts and stroke my already huge ego. shocked


[Linked Image]



Thanks for posting the photos JB, even though they are obviously of "fantasy coyotes" and "fantasy 1 mile groups"

LOL


Originally Posted by Bristoe
The people wringing their hands over Trump's rhetoric don't know what time it is in America.
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If you don't mind me asking, what is your rate of return on the Greybull Precision Leupolds you sell? If I'm using the improper tense in regards to the scope sales, and I should be speaking in past tense, please correct me.

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I don't know what to tell you John and Rick..... Me and just about every military sniper I know have the same issues with Leupold. Every military sniping course I know of reports the same issues. I see it in every class. Rifles only reports the same issues. There are posts constantly on this sight alone of Leupold problems.



The same problems as this.......

[Linked Image]


Both the Nightforce and SWFA have errors so low as to be totally within the tolerance of the rangefinder (PLRF 15). The brand new Leupold Mark 4 has nearly a 6 % error through 25.25 MOA adjustment. It also has the now famous Leupold canted reticle. On top of that it did not return to zero after the 25 1/4 MOA adjustment. It was .5 MOA off.





Again I like Leupold. They make a good to very good hunting scope. Their fixed power scopes are excellent. But I don't ignore the fact that they have a significantly higher rate of scopes that do not track correctly, adjust correctly, and adjust consistently.


What's being touted here by the Leupoldites is fanboy ism. Plain and simple. I'm not a fanboy of any of them. I'll be the first to say the S&B is having some issues with some of their scopes right now. I wouldn't choose to shoot US Optics either. But there are companies that have a better track record of producing scopes that just work.


The coyotes and the mile group prove nothing. Everyone claims their Leupod works perfectly..... Until we run the exact same test as above.

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As an add on: click value errors like above, along with chrono errors and zero errors are the main reasons that people claim that ballistic programs are only "close".

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Really good presentation. NF and Zeiss is all I use after a few Leupold breakdowns.


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Strange.....in 40 years of shooting I have never had a Leupold fail other than from my own stupidity...like having a spotting scope fall off a window mount while driving down a rough road. My luck must be better. wink


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Originally Posted by Formidilosus
I don't know what to tell you John and Rick..... Me and just about every military sniper I know have the same issues with Leupold. Every military sniping course I know of reports the same issues. I see it in every class. Rifles only reports the same issues. There are posts constantly on this sight alone of Leupold problems.



The same problems as this.......

[Linked Image]


Both the Nightforce and SWFA have errors so low as to be totally within the tolerance of the rangefinder (PLRF 15). The brand new Leupold Mark 4 has nearly a 6 % error through 25.25 MOA adjustment. It also has the now famous Leupold canted reticle. On top of that it did not return to zero after the 25 1/4 MOA adjustment. It was .5 MOA off.





Again I like Leupold. They make a good to very good hunting scope. Their fixed power scopes are excellent. But I don't ignore the fact that they have a significantly higher rate of scopes that do not track correctly, adjust correctly, and adjust consistently.


What's being touted here by the Leupoldites is fanboy ism. Plain and simple. I'm not a fanboy of any of them. I'll be the first to say the S&B is having some issues with some of their scopes right now. I wouldn't choose to shoot US Optics either. But there are companies that have a better track record of producing scopes that just work.


The coyotes and the mile group prove nothing. Everyone claims their Leupod works perfectly..... Until we run the exact same test as above.





Oh Boy.

Formidilosus,

I think you are pretty good guy so it will be interesting to see how you handle this situation.

Your test is flawed because you don�t understand the difference between Mils, MOA (Minutes of Angle), and IPHY (Inches Per Hundred Yards).

7 Mils will move your POI 25.2 inches at 100yds, as you say.

25.25 MOA will move the POI 26.43 inches, not 25.2 inches. There is a 5% difference between MOA and IPHY. A lot of guys think they are the same but there is a difference and if you wish to play the LR game it all matters.

If you wish to move the POI 7 Mils with an optic that adjusts in MOA then you need to dial in 24 MOA, not 25.25 MOA.

That MK 4 is working properly.

Originally Posted by Formidilosus
The coyotes and the mile group prove nothing. Everyone claims their Leupod works perfectly..... Until we run the exact same test as above.


I would be willing to bet every Leupold would fail that test. wink

Originally Posted by prairie_goat
If you don't mind me asking, what is your rate of return on the Greybull Precision Leupolds you sell? If I'm using the improper tense in regards to the scope sales, and I should be speaking in past tense, please correct me.


Past tense in regards to Greybull Precision. Present tense in regards to scope sales.

I have had to return 3 scopes because the turret spit the backlash O-ring. That is by far the most common real �failure� with the Leupolds.

The scope on my personal .264 Win Mag was a return from a rather famous riflemaker. I figured now I was going to see firsthand a real tracking issue but alas the optic worked perfectly and it is the one in the 1 Mile picture and I will be hunting with it again this fall.


Originally Posted by 378Canuck
Really good presentation. NF and Zeiss is all I use after a few Leupold breakdowns.


Interesting. laugh


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Probably good treatment allows them to survive longer, but abuse them and see how long they last. Drop your rifle 30 ft from a tree stand or roll a quad over it. Drop your rifle in the water and recover it 2 days later. Things like that kinda weed out the weak units.


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give me yours to abuse.....................no matter what it is bet I can make it fail wink


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Originally Posted by 378Canuck
Drop your rifle in the water and recover it 2 days later. Things like that kinda weed out the weak units.


Seriously, how the heck do you drop your rifle in the water and find it 2 days later?????

WTF?????




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