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Ditto. If you want to snipe animals @ 20yds with a bow (hidden in a tree blah blah blah) - fine, but don't be putting down the skilled long range shooters. Sometimes people have way tooooooo many opinions. I think its Partsman logo - about life guards and the human gene pool.................very well said.
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Campfire Greenhorn
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Campfire Greenhorn
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One thing I have learned for sure over the last 50 years and that includes about as much hunting experience as the human can have and that is that a the better the shot, the more likly he will wound and animal at beyond 400 yards, he won't miss but he will sooner of later hit the gut or leg, whereas the lousy shot will normally miss them altogether, so when a great shot tells me he can kill at 1000 yards I put him in the bullshit catagory and define him as a non-sportsman....Our magnificent game animals deserve better than that..... A 400 yard plus shooter is not a hunter, he is a preditor of the worst degree....His ego surrounds his p size brain....
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Campfire Regular
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Ray
"I post this only because it seems out-of-character from how I've interpreted most of your posts." <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />
This seems a little harsh coming from you, I'd guess you're having a "bad hair" day.
Here's a post you made a while back... on another board.
"I would stay with the .270 Winchester, If it is out of range for a 270 then it is too far away to be shooting at....400 yards is a maximum range and only for a few..beyond that is unsportsmanlike and show disrespect for a fine game animal...I am as guilty as the next guy of shooting at extended ranges, but as I grew older and after a few bad experiences, I figured it out...I can hit an animal every shot at up to 600 yards for sure and sometimes beyond that, but I never know where I am going to hit him...A bad shot just misses and goes on, as I have said before therein lies the problem...If your a good shot then you more than anyone else should turn down shots beyond 400 and most of those are two far.......
-------------------- Ray Atkinson"
You seem to hold true to your 400 yard limit but mention that you've crossed this boundry at least a few times yourself.
We all make mistakes in life, some are making mistakes when they shoot past 400 yards, some are making mistakes when they limit others. Point is, we all learn from the (our) mistakes, it's human nature... If we act upon the mistakes and limit ourselves to what's responsibly possible we're headed in the correct direction, if we blunder forward in an irresponsible manner then we're Pea-brains (as I see it).
Respectfully submitted to a (400 yard limit) former pea-brain from a (650 yard limit) hopefully former pea-brain.
/r
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Been interesting reading.....well some of it anyway. I can't see comparing this with bow hunting at all like some have. At bow hunting ranges, the animals are able to atleast use their senses, it is up to the hunter to defeat those senses. Kind of hard for the animal to do that from the next county. I'm also sure there are a bunch of guys that are very good at it, if thats hunting to them, go ahead. Truth is, most guys are incapable of making even 400 yard shots. That may not be true of many of the guys on this forum but overall, I'd put money on it. My ideas of hunting probably differ from many and truthfully, I've never killed anything over 400 yards except paper and the other occasional inanimate objects. Longest kill I've made on big game is a shade over 300. Sure not going to tell anyone they shouldn't take those long shots, just do it safe and know your limitations.....and stick to them. For me, I'm going to keep trying to sneak up on them and stick my muzzle in their ears, haven't gotten that close yet but I'm working on it.
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Campfire Member
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Campfire Member
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Guys I'm new to your forum, probably should leave this alone, but I'm going to put my 2 cents in. I can see both sides of this issue. I really enjoy shooting at long range, but when it comes to hunting, I try to get as close as I can. The reason for that is I know what these deer here are capable of. They'll run at astonishing distances with hearts blown in half and both lungs gone. Only time I've ever saw them drop like lightning had struck them was from a neck or head shot. If they'll do that at ranges under 500yds, it's kinda silly to intentionally set-up to do it at a 1000 plus yards. A guy might get by with that on those eastern deer, but not with some of these big boys. I shoot a 535gr. bullet and these deer still run, and they are well placed shots, so that can't be debated. Like I said earlier, I really enjoy shooting at long range, anything over 500yds up to 1000yds., it's fun, but not a wise move with these deer. It is also my opinion that if this ole boy can get within 200 or 300yds of a deer in these wide open areas, anyone hunting wooded and hilly or mountainous areas damn sure can! And to the guys that can shoot those eastern deer at those 1000yd. and farther, that's fine. I'm not denying your talent. It just wouldn't apply here or areas where the game is large. It is also my opinion that if you have to set up these rifles on tri-pods, with spotting scopes and range finders on tri-pods, you are just shooting, not hunting. My equipment consist of shooting sticks and Bushnell Pro 1000 rangefinder. No scope on my "baby", globe front and vernier rear, so the rangefinder is a must for sure shot placement. And for those guys that say "I don't wound deer", "they fall within a few yards of where their shot", that all falls back on those smaller deer also. I don't wound deer either, but sometimes its taken a hellava lot of looking to find one thats ran off from a well placed shot. The latest example would be last week with a doe, shot thru both lungs with that 535gr. and ran almost 200yds. before she fell dead. The day before my brother-in-law shot a buck that ran 120-130yds. with his heart cut in half. The buck I shot ran 109yds. with both lungs gone. Anyway, with these deer, that's why no one around here sits on a hilltop with rifle and gear on tri-pods waiting for one to come along.
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Posts: 335
Campfire Member
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Campfire Member
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Posts: 335 |
Ive hunted with some "self-proclaimed long range shooters" and to a man they all cripped game. One nit-wit had all his ranges/drops taped on the side of his .300 weatherby and had his laser range finder. He whined all week about not getting shots at elk, and then the last day he poked a 600 yrd one. Hit the animal square in the ass, his guide saw it in his glass. But the long ranger decided he didnt hit it, and refused to go canyon crawling after the bull.
In my experience this has been the "typical" long range hunter. The kinda guy that just wants to make something bleed and doesnt know the meaning of the word "hunt".
Oh I know some of you guys know your business. Ive seen it done. I have friends in Montana that can consistantly pick off dogs at 500,600,700, yrds. One guy is a twice Camp Perry champ. But shooters like this are rare, have a lifetime of LR shooting behind them, and even most of them dont believe in shooting long on these magnificent animals.
A lot of things can go wrong on a long shot, and none of them good. Field conditions are'nt like on a range, there aint no flags, no bulldozed wind protected shooting range,no paced off yrdges without slopes, no stationary targets. I would bet that even with the "experts" there are just as many 1,000 yds deer that are cripped as are killed. We just never hear about the crips. And the ones that are cripped how many are pursued until they are in the bag ?
No there no need to comment. I know some of you guys are good, better then I will ever be. Not that my eyes will ever be what they were anyway. Ive made a few 350 yrd+ shots, but mostly Ive passed them up. I had a 400 yrd look at a black bear of a lifetime once and there was no way Id take such a shot, in such a wind, and risk cripping him.
Anyway, we dont need anymore laws restricting hunting. We have enough already. It does give me hope when I see so many guys who are against the LR shooting of game. In the final analysis we all have to figure out our own limits and hopefully have the discipline to stay within them...............10
"Like with any House of Prostitution we ought to charge admission at the United Nations building"
"Even better, we should bulldoze it down and put a public shooting range in its place." "We'd be a safer country for it".
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Posts: 6,128 Likes: 2
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 6,128 Likes: 2 |
Ray,
Well, I rarely post like this, but you raised the hair on the back of my neck with your "post".
Frankly that is a pretty smug characterization of probably most of the regular people who post in this forum.
Tell me, is this how you treat your perspective customers when they tell you they are confident in their shooting equipment and shooting ability ?
I have hunted out west quite a few times, my hunting buddy probably twice as much as I have. I think between us we have had only a few shots under 200 yards. Most of them between 250 - 350. And no, we wern't shooting, we were hunting, with some pretty good guides BTW. I've killed an elk at 450 yards, because that was as close as we could get. Question....what would you advise a client when you stalk up a mountainside, top over it and see a trophy 6x6 bull elk accross a canyon in a thick timber opening at 450 yards ? Here is a hint....your client is shooting a rifle combo that is very capable of cleanly taking an elk at that range, can go prone on a bipod for the shot, and who has told you that he has practiced at that range all summer long ?
Let me guess, you call him a "P" brain and tell him not to shoot ???? With an attitude like yours, I wouldn't book a groundhog hunt with your company.
Signed,
Tony
("P" brained Senior Systems Engineer, BAE Systems)
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I apologize for my statements. No, I dont take them back, I meant everything I said. But I should have read the whole thread better, and realized its in a room for LR shooting. A thread, and/or a room, thats devoted to the technical aspects of LR shooting shouldnt be awash in "LR shooting morality" posts. It would be better posted in "Big Game".
LR shooting is a fascinateing game, tho its better practiced on paper then animals. I dont take back what I said, but I'll start saying it elsewhere.............10
"Like with any House of Prostitution we ought to charge admission at the United Nations building"
"Even better, we should bulldoze it down and put a public shooting range in its place." "We'd be a safer country for it".
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Posts: 6,128 Likes: 2
Campfire Tracker
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10point,
Your statements were not the ones my response was aimed at. Hey, there is a limit to everything. Knowing what ones limits are is more important that a hard, fast rule. One persons limit might be a 250 yard shot. The guys up in Pa. have another limit which few of us can (or want to) match. Even though I may not agree with 700+ yard shots at game, someone that is practiced and has the equipment AND the confidence, will make that shot.
It was "Lord" Ray Atcheson's condescending post bestowed upon us poor, peasant hunters that gave me the heartburn.
I hope that is not how he treats his hunters, WTF ??? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />
Tony.
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Campfire Tracker
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10point,
Actually, truth be known, 163bc and I where trying to spank a few does on his property in West Va. yesterday.
The deer won !!!
We both passed up questionable shots at moving does at ranges well under 100 yards, trying not to wound any.
So I guess it is all about self discipline and knowing when it is right to pull the trigger, regardless of the range involved.
Tony.
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Campfire Member
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Campfire Member
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Fellas I posted that original post right before I left the house and went goose hunting, at 0-dark-30 this am. I was in a hurry and didnt take the time to even notice the thread was in a "LR shooting" room. I thought it was just another "ethics of LR hunting" thread.
LR shooters should have the right to have their own room where they can discuss their art without a bunch of gonad busting of the ethics about it, and Rick is kind enough to provide it.
Just cause I dont like the long shooting of game I really didnt have any right to bust in like this. Like I said I just didnt look and see it was in a LR shooting room.
I have seen an awful lot of slob hunters that limit their slobbishness to 300 yrds or closer. If I had to guess I'd say 90% of the small elite "and its very small", who can make the shots your talking about, live west of the big river. Most of the Long Rangers Ive had the sad experience of seeing in action are flat-footers, like me.
Avergeing 10 to 20 trips to a 600- 1000 yrd range a year, and I dont care what kinda gear you have, isnt going to make it. Mastering such a discipline is a lifestyle move. You have to live it, eat it, sleep it.
I have known a few guys that can do it, and boy I admire them. LR shooting is a marvelous fascinateing sport, I really dig it. My buddy, the camp Perry champ, is something to see when hes out shooting dogs. He was born and bred in Montana.
Only the individual hunter can make the decision if they are shooting past their skill level. YRDGS dont tell the whole story. I'll get off my soapbox after saying, IMOHO, we have to many killers in our sport nowdays. To many fellas who want to kill,kill,kill, and dont care what they have to do, who they have to do it over, and what they have to cripple, to make something bleed. I just see a selfishness in hunting now that really takes a lot of the joy out of it for me, and its really apparent with some of these guys that take long shots they have no business trying.
Im not as old as Atkinson but I to remember a simpler time, a time when hunters were gentleman, when we didnt crawl over everything, and everyone, to make something die. When big dollars didnt run the industry, when fancy shooting gadgets werent takeing the "hunt" out of hunting, when everyone with a .300 weatherby wasnt shooting across canyons so "the next guy" wouldnt get "their" elk.
Huntings changed, and personaly I dont much like many of the changes. I aint gonna speak for Atkinson but I wouldnt be surprised if "this" isnt what got his hair up a bit. And not so much the science of LR shooting.
Anyway I'll get off my soapbox now. Im glad Rick gave you a room to discuss this grand sport. If you dont mind I'll stick around a bit and try to learn something should I ever get to a 1000 yrd range.
And good hunting to you..............10
"Like with any House of Prostitution we ought to charge admission at the United Nations building"
"Even better, we should bulldoze it down and put a public shooting range in its place." "We'd be a safer country for it".
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I am glad for those of you that find great sport in this ultra long range shooting and more power to ya if you are that good of a shot. BUT...I think in general...this type of hunting is irresponsible at best...and plain dangerous at worst! Let's see....1000 yards is .57 of a mile...so if you are on foot...that means if you kill your deer at that range you have to walk 1.14 miles just to find it....and drag it back. Seems like an awful lot of work for the thrill of one shot.
"It's sad that governments are chiefed by the double tongues." Ten Bears NRA Benefactor LIfe Member USCG Veteran
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Just finished reading thru this section for the first time and I must say I agree with WW's last paragraph--how would we, as gun owners and avid shooters like it if every time we tried to use our board here, we had to wade through a clutter of anti-gunners. Personally, I have never taken a big game animal at any range over about 500 yards; but once, on a different board I mentioned taking a deer at 322 (measured) yards with a 10-inch barreled contender in .30-30 and another at 265 yards with a Ruger super blackhawk in .44mag. No one asked my skill lever with such arms, or my practice, or the weather or range conditions--but everyone saw fit to soundly trounce my judgment, my ethics, and my sportsmanship. (BTW both were one shot double lung kills.) Steve P.S.--I wouldn't mind watching one of these 1000+yard kills.
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Campfire Regular
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hey Don
all of you have the nerve to kick old bearbeater around and old Haggas around for head shots. Don go read that thread. I got kicked real hard but I never said what yardage I shoot at. My limit for deer is 400yds I practice alot farther but thats for varmits. I would take a shot at a varmit but not a deer at that range. Don if you take a shot at a deer at that range I put you in the ass shooter catagory. ( see head shot thread ) I would like to see that. All of you who got on Haggas and my case should hang your head.
Bearbeater
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I like a Krag with a Belding & Mull bolt sleeve peepsight and 150 yards is long enough for me.
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Campfire Regular
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hey all
how about a 1000 yd head shot
Bearbeater
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New Member
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New Member
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Posts: 11 |
I've read most of the posts and i havent read any thing on safety or consideration of other hunters.at 1000 yrds what kind of fov do you have can you see the hunter in the tree stand 20 yrds from the deer thats hunting with a bow?how about the guy 100 yrds on the other side of the deer hiding behind the tree. are you 100% sure of your back stop when you miss?I think this should rank high up on the list before you pull the trigger. and who desides what is hunting and what is not.I think it would be great to take a 4-wheeler hunting.take it out about 50 miles in the back country.set up camp.next morning go for a walk"hunting"a bag some game.atv do have some advantages over a horse.atv wont break its ankle.i know atv will break but i wont have to shoot it.some people just cant ride a hores or might have a disability they both have there own place in the hunting scene.if you want the next gen.of hunters to use the older ways of hunting then you beter get out there and teach them.
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I happen to live in an area that would allow me 1000 yard shots; I would never try one. For me, using only iron sights, 200 yards is h*ll and gone through the country. The front blade or bead looks like a hub cap on my targets. Even with a 100 yard head shot the front bead/blade is a force to reckoned with. I can't imagine what a deer would look like at 1000 yards with the cross hairs on it. I would guess that pin point accuracy (3" group) would be difficult if the cross hairs were covering half the deer?
"When a nation's young men are conservative, its funeral bell is already rung."
Henry Ward Beecher
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 29,730 Likes: 52
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 29,730 Likes: 52 |
Steve95,
I am convinced most of the folks who bad mouth other hunters have about a year or less experince. Some may have copied that year twenty or thirty times, but it is still the same thing over and over again and again. They don't have a clue about what others can do. They do not fall in the catagory of people who have twenty or thirty years of experience.
"Only Christ is the fullness of God's revelation." Everyday Hunter
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 6,037 Likes: 37
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
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DonKnows, Well apparently Don doesn't know. I just happened on to this post and was shocked. I cannot believe that a 1000 yard shot on a deer or elk would even be considered. I don't care if you are G. David Tubb or can compete at that level, you don't have any business shooting at unwounded game at those yardages. In all reality there is no excuse for taking a shot at unwounded game at over 300 yards. If you can't close the distance to under 300 yards, then you are risking a lost animal. How many deer have you shot at extended distances have been pencil holed by a bullet that failed to expand due to low impact velocity, only to die in the night, lost to any but the scavengers.
Shooters (they are not hunters) who brag about long range shots on big game are taking those shot to satisfy some vain, selfish need. They apparently have no consideration for the game or providing every opportunity for a humane kill. Certainly hunters make bad shots and have to follow up at extended ranges on occasion. But, if a hunter has any shred of decency he or she will shorten the distance on the first shot to be more certain of a clean, humane kill.
I spent the last 22 years hunting in an area that didn't have anything taller than sage brush for a hundred miles and never saw the need to take a shot over 300 yards. Most kills were made under 100 yards. Imagine that, under 100 yards in wide open country. Probably just lucky!
Save your long range, look at me and what I did shots for the woodchucks, prairie dogs and paper targets and leave the big game alone until you develop some hunting skills. Mart
Chronographs, bore scopes and pattern boards have broke a lot of hearts.
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