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One last thought - someone mentioned a 200mm f2 --- a great lens but a disaster for sports because the depth of field is much to shallow.

I would have said the same until my sports photographer friend showed me images he had shot with his 85mm 1.2 of indoor volleyball. Can you imagine how razor thin his field must be? Same friend shoots outdoor nighttime soccer with a 200mm f1.8 (the predecessor of the f2.0) and he pulls out good images where I would have put away my camera long ago.

Yes, he is working with a very thin depth of field, but he's somehow figured it out.

One the subject of WB...I shoot an expodisc or gray card for a custom WB, but outdoors, lighting and conditions change. If I really want to save an image, Lightroom can often rescue the day...but WB has nothing to do with exposure.

Last edited by ChrisF; 09/18/13.
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Despite our talk about what works "best" the good folk at Cameraland are doing an admirable job keeping things in perspective.

So I thought about it a bit and came up with this suggestion;
Try shooting your 60D and existing lens at high ISO's to see what you get.

Then rent a couple of lenses from these online rental services. Rent one that you're considering buying and see if it makes the difference you had hoped for. Also rent a lens with a 2.8 aperture and see if the fuss is all that.

Good luck and I hope you capture your son's senior season in good fashion!

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I checked some of the photos I took last year using my Nikon D3S and the Nikon 70-200mm f2/8 VR II - I always use a monopod so the VR II feature was turned off.

Shooting at f2.8 under crappy stadium lights, I was shooting a f2.8 with a shutter speed of 1/1000 or 1/1250 - depending on which end of the field I was shooting - ISO was 8000.

On a field with really good lights I could drop the ISO down to 6400 while keeping the aperture at f2.8 and the shutter speed 1/1000 or 1/1250.

If we extrapolate and use a lens that has a minimum aperture of f5.6 (2 full stops slower than f2.8)so to get the same exposure as above you would need an ISO of 8000x2x2 or an ISO of 32,000 (which should generate a lot of noise) or you could drop the shutter speed down to 1/250 and not be able to stop the action -- or -- you could shoot at ISO 16,000 at 1/500 - still get a lot of noise but should be able, with good technique, be able to stop most of the action.

This assumes you shoot at the max aperture of your lens but unfortunately most consumer zoom lenses need to be stopped down at least a full-stop to get sharper images - shooting at f8 now means an ISO of 64,000

And remember, with the VR feature enabled your focusing speed is slowed down - noticeably.

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Chris F, I had not even thought about the rental aspect. That is a great idea. It is definitely a great way to see exactly how much of a difference a lens makes. It may make a decent improvement to go from a f5.6 to a f2.8 lens until you see that the additional clarity is going to run you $5000. Very good point. Also try and see if Tamron is having any events near where you live. They often offer the ability to go out and test drive a lens for a couple hours. Keep an eye out for camera club conventions or workshops they offer.
It is easy when looking at what is best vs. what will work best with limitations of budgeting. I get to enjoy the benefits of belonging to "Pro" service groups and when I have the need for a 800mm f5.6 or a 400mm f2.8 a simple phone call puts it at my door, but I am not having to put out the expense of owning it. It is easy to forget that not everyone is wanting "professional magazine quality" results, they just want to get better images than they are getting with what they have or can afford.

Maybe we should start a thread and call it "What's in my dream bag"!


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This is a link to a Canon Forum - specifically the Sports section and in this they discuss just about what you're looking to do -- and they include the Tamron lens everyone seems to love. Suggest you read the thread before you buy the lens specifically for shooting sports in low light,

Here's the link

http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1329587

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Thanks for all the suggestions and help. I can tell my photography skills and knowledge are much lower than many of the posters in this thread....but I'm learning. Went to my sons junior varsity game tonight just to see what I could do with the 28-135 "kit" lens. My pictures were taken from the stands near the 50 yard line.

Kickoff was overcast at 6:05 PM. I used the "TV" shutter priority mode. The first picture was taken in the first quarter but I don't remember the settings. The second picture was taken in the 4th quarter about 8pm or so(stadium as dark as it gets). I set the ISO to 6400 and my shutter speed was 1/160(I think).

The good news is my son is just a freshman, so I have a little more time to get things figured out! My son's team won tonight, so that makes it even better. The other added benefit is this...my son is the center and I have been able to go back through the photos and verify if he was firing off the line and staying low.

[Linked Image]


[Linked Image]


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VAhunter, Congratulations to your son's team! It looks like you did very well with the photos! It really looks like the noise is not that bad at all. One thing to look for is if when you are in Tv mode if the number representing the aperture flashes that means it is a little dark but it will still work, it may just under expose it a little. If you feel "daring" you can shoot in Av and just set it to the lowest aperture and then it will always select the highest shutter speed possible. Either way will work but something to try if you want to get "crazy" one night.
Your son looks like he is keeping his shoulders parallel and square to the line and getting the ball back to the quarterback nicely. Good job on his part as well! Keep up the great work and keep posting the photos. Let's hope for an undefeated season as well!


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Originally Posted by CameraLandTamronPhotAdv
VAhunter, Congratulations to your son's team! It looks like you did very well with the photos! It really looks like the noise is not that bad at all. One thing to look for is if when you are in Tv mode if the number representing the aperture flashes that means it is a little dark but it will still work, it may just under expose it a little. If you feel "daring" you can shoot in Av and just set it to the lowest aperture and then it will always select the highest shutter speed possible. Either way will work but something to try if you want to get "crazy" one night.
Your son looks like he is keeping his shoulders parallel and square to the line and getting the ball back to the quarterback nicely. Good job on his part as well! Keep up the great work and keep posting the photos. Let's hope for an undefeated season as well!



Thanks for the tip. I did notice on several occasions that the number representing the aperture was indeed flashing. That is when I bumped the ISO to 6400 and the number would no longer blink. I have a couple friends coaching some little league games this weekend that I can get some practice at. I will give the AV mode a try and see how it turns out.


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I look forward to seeing some photos!


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Nice first effort. If your goal is to try to chronicle your son's time on the field, you might finnagle your way onto the sidelines to shoot. If your goal is to enjoy the game from the stands as a parent...carry on. Hard to do both well though.

I searched my archive for stadium shots. Problem is I don't do football and I don't do stadiums. I did find one where I was playing with your 60D's great grand daddy from the stands though (30D).

ISO800 (I think I kept it low because the grain really started at 1600). AV (shutter ended up at 400 - I would have liked higher though). 70-200 2.8 Mark I shot at 200mm f2.8.
[Linked Image]

crop to see more detail.
[Linked Image]

p.s. I don' know if it's possible, but try to get your shutter speed up to minimize motion blur. You can see from my shots that even at 1/400 there's some noticeable blur.

p.p.s. A Nikon shooter crusing POTN?!! Nikon shooters posting on POTN??


Last edited by ChrisF; 09/20/13.
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ChrisF, I am asking because I don't know for sure but that lens you used it does have IS? Was it the original IS version of that lens? I am not suggesting you upgrade or anything, the shot you posted is very well done. I am just curious because of all the advancements in IS, VR, and VC it would be interesting to see how much of a difference the newer systems make.
You got a lot of detail without a lot of noise out of that 30D!


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That lens doesn't have IS. That picture is 6 years old, and it is still one of my workhorses. I have lenses with IS and I end up turning it off most of the time for shooting sports. i don't do much sniping from the stands. My pans are pretty active, so even in vertical only mode, I end up fighting with the IS.

I'll look for some more recent images with this lens (probably different body though) in more typical lighting for my type of shooting. Those football images were to help the OP see what a 2.8 might offer for what he does.

Last edited by ChrisF; 09/20/13.
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Thanks Chris for the information. Even though I use a VC lens on a monopod often I will leave the VC on when panning. Some of these newer lenses with that feature do a pretty good job. I was curious because it was hard to tell with the crop and the lower resolution photo (I am guessing lower res for the web), it looked like a little movement in the stuff on the grass as well as the players. I have found that often in stuff I shot 3-5 years ago the VC, IS, or VR had a lot of trouble with pans. Thanks again.


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Click on the upper photo. Then click on the magnifying glass on the lower right. Click the magnifying glass a second time and what is a good sized image should load. You can pixel peep on the warts and all. I'm seeing too much noise in the turf to say blur (unless they're using red blades mixed into their turf!)

The lower photo is cropped down, so you won't be able to open up a larger image.

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Thanks. I think what I am seeing is a combination of the noise and some chromatic abberations, but just mainly around the bits of paper on the turf. That definitely helps viewing it though. It was only around the confetti or whatever it is, and that is going zoomed way in. It may even be a little bit of JPEG artifacts but zoomed out farther it looks a little like movement. Again, thanks for the information.


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I'll say it again, this is not my style of shooting. I just dragged the camera out to see what it was like.

With all the technical blah-blah-blah, I thought the OP might like to see something reasonably close to what he had shot, but with f2.8 instead. Or a picture is worth a thousand words. I hope it was illustrative and allows him to make the best decision for his need and his budget.

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Thanks for all the help. I would like to try one of the f2.8 lenses and may rent one and see what it does. The good thing is I'm pretty happy with my photos from the other night. So, I will probably save my pennies and try to have a better lens by this time next year.


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When my son was a junior I rented a really nice f2.8 lense for the playoffs. I bought one for his senior year and sold it for almost what I paid for it once he was done playing. If shooting night games you will not be happy with anything less.

I found I could live with a shutter speed of 1/500 but that was the absolute slowest to get a decent picture. Not great but decent. Speeds closer to 1/1000 are preferred. If you use a lense 4-5.6 it's hard to get a decent shutter speed in night games even under good lights. It will also depend on what ISO you are happy with. My camera was decent at 6400 but much better at 3200 so that is what I used most of the time. I accepted a little blur for less grain. Everything is a trade off and I didn't have the money to invest in a pro body just to take pictures for football season.

One thing that worked well for me was to shoot more early in the season when you still have a little natural light. Late in the season gets dark well before kickoff and some stadiums are poorly lit for photos.

Plan to shoot from the sidelines and not the stands if you want great photos. The facial expressions you get up close are well worth the effort.

Also realize it will be hard to watch the game and take photos of your son at the same time. I watched him through the lense and paid little attention to the rest of the game.


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I got a lot of great action shots of my son, but this is my favorite. It just reminds me of the beast and leader he became. #51

[Linked Image]


Unfortunately, our season ended here.

[Linked Image]

Get the good lens and take pictures while you can. They will be gone soon and you won't be wishing you had lesser quality pictures.


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Originally Posted by Kodiakisland
Get the good lens and take pictures while you can. They will be gone soon and you won't be wishing you had lesser quality pictures.

Good advice! I you can swing the purchase price now, do so.

Premium lenses retain their resale value better than run-of-the-mill optics.

If you go on the 'Net and buy a used premium lens, in a few years you will likely be able to sell it for the same price you paid for it -- but you will have some really superior pictures forever.

John

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