Home Forums Reloading Big Game Rifles RL17 + .30-06 - interesting results today

Thanks Hammerdown! I couldn't remember where I found them.

Am I reading it right? 58.0 grains of RL17 averages 2924 fps with a 180 grain Noslers.

Holy bat [bleep] that's smoking.

Dink

I couldn't get the link to work, and when Arac forwarded me the files my computer said they were infected.

But I do see the 2900+ fps with 58 grains here--at 64,400 psi for five shots. That's about the same pressure as the WSM's.
I looked up Hodgdon's data for 180's and found H4350 giving 2752 fps at 57,200 psi. According to the Homer Powley formula that velocity with single-base powders (H4350 is one) increases at twice the rate of pressure, at 64,400 psi H4350 would get 2925 fps.

Hodgdon also shows Superformance getting 2840 fps at 57,600 psi. It's a double-based powder, so the Powley formula wouldn't quite work, but I'm betting that at 64,400 psi it would at least match RL-17 and probably exceed it.

Will also note that professional pressure labs shoot more than 5 rounds before coming to any conclusion about pressures, partly because SAAMI standards aren't based only averages but the extreme pressures of individual rounds.

So from what I'm seeing here, the fantastic velocities of RL-17 so often quoted are once again due to loading up to higher than normal pressures. This doesn't mean 64,000 in the .30-06 isn't safe, but does mean some other powders will match RL-17, which is what ballistic labs run by various SAAMI members have found.

I have loaded re-17 grain for grain from established loads of H4350 in my 6-250 and 260 with 125fps gains. I got an honest 2980 fps with a 140 AMAX molyed in a 6.5 Swede 46.5 grains in a 25" bartlein 5r

I think you may have typed that backwards since in the above example, the V increase is only 6% & the P increase is 12%............

V increases at half the rate of the P increase.

MM

I'm not surprised. H4350 is normally a little slower burning than RL-17 with heavier bullets in most cartridges. Load the same charge with both powder and the faster-burning powder will result in higher velocity--with more pressure.

This difference often doesn't show up on burn-rate charts, but that's because burn-rate charts aren't absolute. Just about any powder will vary in burn rate depending on the cartridge, and whether the bullet used is relatively light or heavy for the caliber.

For example, let's compare Alliant and Hodgdon data for 140-grain bullets in the .260, 180-grain bullets in the .30-06 and 225-grain bullets in the .338. In the .260 the max powder charges are 41 grains with R17 and 44.5 grains with H4350. In the .30-06 the max with R17 is 54.5 grains, and with H4350 57.5 grains. In the .338 the max R17 load is 67.5 grains, and with H4350 69.5 grains.

So then would it be safe to load a 30-06 to that pressure if the labs agreed it didn't show spikes in pressure over 65,000 psi? Not that I will be doing it as all my 30-06s were made before 64 and the velocity I am getting is fine. Just curious.

That's the general procedure. Some cartridges--and even some cartridge/bullet weight combinations--typically show more variation in pressure than others. (This means both low and high variations, though the highs are what really matter.) One of the reasons the WSMs and other short-fat rounds have slightly higher SAAMI pressures than many if not most other rounds is they typically show less pressure variation.

The .30-06 is usually pretty low in variations itself. The reason SAAMI pressures are kept relatively low (a maximum of 60,000, compared to 65,000 in the WSM's) is so many older rifles in .30-06. But in a modern, strong rifle there's no real reason not to load it above 60,000 psi.

The other factor is that some powders vary more in pressure at different temperatures. Supposedly RL-17 is pretty good, but I've heard reports indicating it isn't as temp-resistant as the Hodgdon Extremes, which has also been my experience in rather limited testing. This means pushing RL-17 to the absolute limit may be iffy in different circumstances. And one general rule is that double-based powders (like all the Reloder line) are touchier at top pressures than single-based powders, and all the Extremes are single-based.

Hey MD- sorry about the files - I scanned them with Norton and they seem ok...so????

Check out the link that Hammerdown posted - all of the data is there.

Great thread! Very interesting information here.

I have often wondered what pressures were to get a 180 gr going that fast from a 30/06. I tried some Rl17 in the 270,and pretty quickly stopped; chronograph readings indicated nothing special over what I had seen before with other powders,and I realized I was headed down the same general path I had traveled with H205 many years ago; a double base powder similar to RL17 from what I can see, although H205 may have been a tad slower.

We got great velocities from H205 in the 30/06 and 338 Win Mag; but it dawned on me eventually that we were really operating too close to redline for consistent use.

For the traveling hunting I was doing, you run into different temps and environments, and I have seen loads that worked fine without a hint of trouble through the hot ,humid weather of summer in the northeast, blow primers first shot in Montana with new brass.

I am not sure why this is but the lessons I learned from all this stuff, is that,(taking the example here)if I have decided that I want a velocity level of 2900+ fps with a 180 gr 30 caliber bullet, I am reaching for a 300 WSM or H&H rather than test the limits of the smaller case to get the same velocities.

Once I "learned" to buy case capacity instead of testing propellants to reach a certain velocity level, my hand loading life went a lot smoother, and concerns went away. The reason is that pressure problems start to crop up in reaching for that last 100-150 fps, (or at least that is what I have seen). And the very FIRST requirement of a load for BG hunting is that it be absolutely safe and trouble free.

Not preaching here because this thread certainly indicates what a 30/06 is capable of and has been very interesting; I have seen 2900+ fps with a 165 gr bullet from the cartridge, in hand loads and factory High Energy stuff, to believe it is safe in a number of 30/06's but not sure I would want a steady diet of that velocity level with a 180 gr.



Besides, you gotta keep an eye on double based powders...they will continue to add velocity as you add more powder in general, whereas IMHO the single based propellants seem to "top out", and adding more powder will not yield any significant gain; when you see that you know you have likely "arrived". I have seen this plenty using H4831 vs RL22 in a number of cartridges.

Anyone know how much pressure it takes to blow a primer?

A couple more comments:

1) Anybody who actually looks at Alliant's latest data with find OTHER powders, even newer than RL-17, that beat 17 in certain applications.

2) If other powders came out without a bunch of immediate, pressure-tested data (as was the case with RL-17 in the beginning), we'd hear about far more magic powders, just as we continually hear about magic wildcats. The reason? When handoaders work up loads with the traditional pressure signs, they're operating above the limit of 65,000 psi judged safe for long-term shooting by rifle and ammo manufacturers.

John, and others----
When working up loads, one thing I watch closely is the O.D. at the web. As I move up in grains there comes a point where the web goes from fairly consistent diameter to starting to grow beyond that dimension. I usually consider a grain below that occurance as max for that gun/load.
If you had to estimate what psi that would normally happen at, what would your guess be????
I load mostly stuff in 308, 30-06 and 284 and there offspring.
I usually refer to 3 load manuals if available, watch the chrony, watch primers, watch for sticky bolts, etc plus watch the O.D. as noted above.
I haven't had a blow up yet, but some close ones.
Am I way off base on load development???? Especially when don't have published data available????
Thanks
Tim

That technique can work, kinda sorta, IF you have something to compare it to. It's the method Ken Waters used, comparing web expansion to that of factory rounds.

There are still problems, however. How do we know our brass has the same hardness and thickness, even if it's the same brand as the factory load we compare it to? And because brass varies in hardness and thickness, there's no way to estimate PSI by the method. (Well, actually you can, but you need to know the PSI of the load. Then you can compare brass expansion of fired cases from the same lot, and come up with a reasonable guess. But if you have some way of measuring PSI in the first place, why bother?)

I ran some experiments a few years ago, using various versions of measuring brass expansion, then had the handloads developed with those methods pressure-tested at a professional lab. I couldn't find any correlation. Using a chronograph to compare handloads with pressure-tested loads using the same powder and bullet proved far more accurate.

After reading all this, I am happy to have 8+ pounds of H4350, a few thousand primers, dozens of bags/boxes of Noslers and I don't have to re-invent the wheel.
Interesting reading though.

Geez you guys can be woosies.
I'm sure there is a formula that will prove 2950 w/a 30-06/180 is no problem.
The formula can be figured out backwards from just a few years ago when it was proven over and over again that 3500fps w/180 bullets were completely safe in the 300 rum!!
(Yes my version of night humor at work)

------It's the method Ken Waters used, comparing web expansion to that of factory rounds.
What is a "factory round"?

------I don't have to re-invent the wheel.
And where is the sport in that?
Just kidding.

As always, when reloading proceed with caution whatever your methods/procedures are. Each gun is different.
I do like R17. It has been good for me.
jmho
Tim

I've been able to get RE 17 here lately, so I've been using it quite a bit. it seems to do a good job for me in the 7mm-08, .338 WM and .375 AI. it seems to do about as good (but not way better than) the other 'good powders' in these cartridges. i'll keep using it even when the panic subsides.

Okay all this talk of RL-17 & 30-06, since I am planning a WT hunt to Alberta in Nov., does anyone have a good RL-17 load with 165/168 Nosler Bal. Tip or anything close to that. Thanks

This begs the question then are the WSMs and other magnums loaded to their full potential? If the 30-06 can get magnum velocity and stay under 65,000 psi, are the WSMs with more case capacity loaded to 65,000 psi or anywhere near it?