Still trying to bait someone to come to your house. It would be pathetic if it weren't so sad. Take care of all this by hanging a couple pics of some of your elk/grizzlies/pigs. There's no need to pull the mall ninja card every time you get excited......
..............Bait? Well I suppose that even you aren`t that dumb to take the bait. You`d be quite smart to stay where you are.
Ok! So let`s say I learn how to post pics by taking the 35mms still photos that I have and then doing whatever. Then what? You and a few others would then like me alot "mo" better?....
The reason I don`t care to and don`t need to, is because you and few others wish it. That is all the reason I need. I don`t need to appease anyone nor do I have the need to justify any credibility to anyone. That goes especially for you and a few others of whom I`ll never meet and could care less meeting anyway.
Hey! I can give you the serial #s of my rifles. Would that help a little?
Yep! I have three rifles that just sit there and do nothing. I have many containers of different powders that just sit there and do nothing. Many boxes of bullets and primers that just sit there and do nothing. And let`s not forget all of the reloading equipment; press, dies, caliper, case trimmer, etc and etc that just sit there and do nothing.
Your buddy? "bearcrapper" aka bearstalker PM`d me and also told me to keep my mouth shut. My response to him was the same as with you. Asking is one thing, actually doing so is quite another.
Good luck with all of your future hunting endeavors.
Ok! So let`s say I learn how to post pics by taking the 35mms still photos that I have and then doing whatever.
Take less time than you've spent posting on this thread, go to any camera shop, scan your photos (or let them do it for you), and leave with them all on a CD. That's all there is to it. Or take some of current hunts with your cell phone.
It does seem ironic that people who spend lots of time on the internet can't post a photo. It's not rocket science.
Still trying to bait someone to come to your house. It would be pathetic if it weren't so sad. Take care of all this by hanging a couple pics of some of your elk/grizzlies/pigs. There's no need to pull the mall ninja card every time you get excited......
..............Bait? Well I suppose that even you aren`t that dumb to take the bait. You`d be quite smart to stay where you are.
Ok! So let`s say I learn how to post pics by taking the 35mms still photos that I have and then doing whatever. Then what? You and a few others would then like me alot "mo" better?....
The reason I don`t care to and don`t need to, is because you and few others wish it. That is all the reason I need. I don`t need to appease anyone nor do I have the need to justify any credibility to anyone. That goes especially for you and a few others of whom I`ll never meet and could care less meeting anyway.
Hey! I can give you the serial #s of my rifles. Would that help a little?
Yep! I have three rifles that just sit there and do nothing. I have many containers of different powders that just sit there and do nothing. Many boxes of bullets and primers that just sit there and do nothing. And let`s not forget all of the reloading equipment; press, dies, caliper, case trimmer, etc and etc that just sit there and do nothing.
Your buddy? "bearcrapper" aka bearstalker PM`d me and also told me to keep my mouth shut. My response to him was the same as with you. Asking is one thing, actually doing so is quite another.
Good luck with all of your future hunting endeavors.
Invites from strange men in California do not interest me. Keep at it, perhaps you'll find a taker.......
I'd rather not think about all of the stuff you might own that sits around doing nothing. Your friend value is close to nil, but your do-nothing moron value increases with every post. You are much like the present Commander-in-Chief; lots of hope, lots of dreams, but no accomplishments. Still awaiting a pic of something you've done..........
P.S. I find it incredible that you can correctly spell credible, but I'm quite certain you have no idea what it means..
Your buddy? "bearcrapper" aka bearstalker PM`d me and also told me to keep my mouth shut. My response to him was the same as with you. Asking is one thing, actually doing so is quite another.
I've read most of this and being a novice elk hunter (killed one)that chases more than shooting them, no way will I go after them with a VLD. I have to put too much out there to be using a hollow point cup and core bullet. Deer I have no problem with it around the house. If I'm traveling after mule deer again I'll use a better bullet. By better I mean something along the lines of TTSX, TSX, Partition, Swift A-Frame and a few others along those lines. Penetration being my main concern as long as the bullet will open up to a certain degree. Not much chance for a blowup on the shoulder bone or whatever.
Just my humble opinion fellas.
JOC was right. The 270 Winchester on a Model 70 is a great combination as is the 30/06 and 375 H&H
Who uses Berger bullets for elk? Results/experiences please.
No personal experience with the Berger bullets
First line of your first post seems to sum it up pretty well.
Good thing you added 62 more posts and a few thousand words to the discussion. You keep grinding this hard and you are going to run out of axe.
Originally Posted by pathfinder76
This is all very interesting. I've come to the conclusion reading this that even the biggest proponents of using Bergers on Elk don't recommend them if the shot angle is less than ideal or heavy bone may be encountered (doubly interesting that many of these same individuals slap themselves on the back for shooting an Elk at 800 yds). I'm sorry, but I just don't have any patience for stuff like that in the name of high BC "target" bullets. Pass the Barnes LRX please. They shoot more accurately anyway.
While I hope the brand new LRX works well it is amusing to me that you are praising a bullet that has essentially zero real world use on elk. I would be willing to bet you have shot exactly the same number of elk with the LRX as you have with the VLD.
Originally Posted by pathfinder76
Fair enough. I am curious though if you would recommend the Berger VLD if you had to put one through an 800lb Bull Elk's paunch enroute to his heart at 75 yds? Realizing of course that real Elk hunters pass on those types of shots. I however am not a real Elk hunter (I've never even shot the all important real elk hunters obligitory cow elk for pitty sakes) so wouldn't pass on such a shot.
There really is no path to an elks heart through the paunch that does not also include his butt. This type of shot is based in myth.
There are a number of things wrong with trying to target the heart on from the back of the animal. The proper target is the pelvic structure to immobilize the animal and a finishing shot to the chest.
This shot is much easier to accomplish because the target area is readily visible and if done properly there is much less meat lost.
VLDs work very well for this shot and Kris killed this bull last year using this technique.
That being said it really is a bad idea to shoot trophy elk from the rear because it is much harder to judge how big or exactly which bull in a bunch.
This was the bull we were after. Low left of the 4.
This was the situation after the wolves bumped the bulls.
Unless that VLD blew 70 inches of bone off his head we shot the wrong bull. I took 29% of the blame because I told him the last bull was the biggest.
Moral of the story is shooting elk from the back is a bad plan in most situations but VLDs work just fine if you feel the need.
Originally Posted by BobinNH
Well I kinda feel the same way but a couple of people whose experiences and opinions I trust say they will do the job and are especially effective at really long range, where I can see them working fine....all this sets up this HUGE conflict in my brain
I reconcile all this by factoring in that I am not a real LR shooter (being all done at 500-600 yards)....and simply stick to the deeper penetrating stuff I am used to using
I am a bit mystified by the comments of some Berger users who say the elk simply shrug off solid chest hits with things like Partitions and others....sort of wander around a great distance before they collapse...which has not been my experience at all.
Maybe I am angling too many shots through bones?
Bob,
You will have to try VLDs someday to truly understand the "magic". VLDs kill so quick that time actually backs up a few seconds.
I am going to throw this out and say in my experience VLDs tend to open slower at close range than at long range. I think this is because the heat softens the lead core and that takes a little distance.
I killed 2 elk last year at relatively close range (100 yd bull and 135 yd cow) and the VLD worked great. Both were shoulder shot. Used the .243 Win/105gr VLD on the bull.
You appear to be hunting some pretty open country Elk. Nice bull by the way.
No I have not killed Elk with the LRX. However I have put a few TSX's and TTSX's into them and by all accounts, at least from what I have seen, the LRX is them only better.
Yes you can put a bullet through the paunch of an Elk and hit his heart. My brother did that very thing to a bull that was feeding away over a slight rise. He was above the bull and the bull was turned such that that is exactly what happened. He plunked him with a 160 gr partition from his 7mm Wby at right around 50 yds. It went through the paunch and caught heart and a bit of lung somehow but it did not exit.
I would like to see more shots of internal damage caused by Berger bullets. They are supposed to pinhole in and then come unglued after two or three inches. However the only photo I've seen here does not indicate that is what happens at all.
After reading all of this post there is some great discussion on both sides of this topic. On that note, I load for both my brother and I's 7rm and use the 168 vld's with great success. To date we have one shot kills on his mountain goat at 380 yds, a 6 point bull right at 300yds, buck antelope at 430 yds and a doe antelope at 330 yds the same day, a muley buck at 80 yds, and a whitetail buck at 200 yds. We have only had one exit and that was on the doe antelope and it was a pretty good sized exit to say the least. Only ever recovered pieces of the bullets inside of the animals as it turns there vitals into jello very quickly.
I was lucky enough this year to kill my first elk with my bow, 5 point inside of 20 yds and if things continue that is my preferred method to hunt, especially elk.
That being said, I picked up a 243 this past winter and have it loaded with 105 vld's over Retumbo and plan on packing it hunting for antelope and deer this fall, possibly to hunt for my cow elk also. I firmly believe in shot placement and have passed if things are not coming together correctly, but I have never been on a guided hunt many miles away from home either. The high BC and great terminal performance is why I will continue to use Berger VLD hunting bullets.
Most of the important things in the world have been accomplished by people who have kept on trying when there seemed to be no hope at all. - Dale Carnegie
Will keep my answer to the point. Only 30 cal 185 and 190 VLD experience on animals, at basically 30-06 velocities (I shoot an '06, my brother shoots a short barreled SAUM), short to intermediate distances, broadside and slightly quartering shots in lungs, handful of animals up to big elk. All down right there, all bullets exited. Really stellar performance IMO.
I tried Bergers for a few reasons: 1)John Barsness's write-up, 2)an exhaustive internet research of Berger's claims that provided many accounts of success, 3) running ballistics charts for my gun and looking at the real benefit that high-BC provides at moderate velocities and longer ranges, namely in wind drift and energy retention. The kicker was the tiny groups my gun made with them.
Ironically, the reasons I picked Bergers for hunting have so far been irrelevant in my actual use of them. But, just like many Berger detractors on this and other threads, I took my past experience, studied accounts of people I trust, researched what info I could find, and then made a rational decision based on what I want to experience while hunting. I simply came to a different conclusion, which is just fine. I'm not asking anyone to agree with me. Use what you have confidence in, according to what you want to experience.
A thanks to those who, in a desire to further the collective knowledge, have thoughtfully articulated their answers here. You know who you are!
Ya,been getting wood and livin in the mountains until.......Dislocated shoulder and one hand pic'n......Never liked my left much anyway except for shooting which I won't be doing much of in the near future...
Experienced hunters already know what works for them,right?
You can't create the future by clinging to the past.
I'm sure hunters have been saying the same thing for hundreds of years about every small advancement. Thank God some of them have been willing to try something new, and often found it really did work better. If they hadn't we would still be hunting with spears.
Most people don't really want the truth.
They just want constant reassurance that what they believe is the truth.
I respect JB's opinions, and I respect the factual data he relies on in his reports. I doubt he is trying to sell anything to anyone.
2nd, I didn't and still don't entirely subscribe to the "premium" bullet concept, premium meaning hard and expensive. I want bullets that kill, not make holes.
3rd, I wanted to make my 30-06 an accepted elk killer at 600 yds, acceptable being 1500ft/lbs of energy minimum. 600 yd shots happen where I hunt, and I discovered that high-BC projectiles not only retain their energy better, but buck the wind better.
They shoot more accurately in my gun than any other hunting bullet I've worked up loads for, also making a 600yd shot attempt ethical, and they cost 40-50 cents apiece. What's not to like? For me it is a win win win win. Common sense stuff.
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