24hourcampfire.com
24hourcampfire.com
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Page 1 of 6 1 2 3 4 5 6
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 647
Campfire Regular
OP Offline
Campfire Regular
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 647
585 HE --- Super Strong---

If you've followed our work in the 12ga FH thread you've seen
our 585 HE cartridge and its development. We have barrels
of cases and more coming.

We have put it in all kinds of guns, and tested it with 650gr
bullet over 3000 fps as heavy load to test the brass, and also
for lighter game like deer and hogs and target fun we found
that some of the 440gr to 540gr 58cal Minie bullets work
great. Cases have same overall loaded length as 505 Gibbs.

First picture shows it beside a Gibbs.
Next pic is a barrel of cases,
Third, representative of typesof guns we have it in.Ed

[Linked Image].


[Linked Image].

[Linked Image].

Last edited by hubel458; 10/08/13.

Ed Hubel
BP-B2

Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 4,776
Campfire Tracker
Offline
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 4,776
Different strokes whistle


The factory of the future will have only two employees, a man and a dog. The man will be there to feed the dog. The dog will be there to keep the man from touching the equipment. � WARREN G. BENNIS
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 647
Campfire Regular
OP Offline
Campfire Regular
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 647
Many guys like to stroke so to soeak, big bores..
And here is way they can do so without spending
a years pay.They can get 100 cases, die set,
and barrel to put in something for 750 bucks.
We get asked about recoil. Guns are weighted a little, thick pads,
can be ported, use moderate loads, they shoot nice...And moderate
loads still much faster than 577NE. And can be had without costing a
years pay. Most local users(only 1 in 10000 hunters go Africa) can
shoot lighter .585 Minie bullets, which load for about 95 cents each,
once you have cases... Ed

Last edited by hubel458; 10/12/13.

Ed Hubel
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 647
Campfire Regular
OP Offline
Campfire Regular
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 647
Asked about putting it in #1, on another forum.
And it is perfect case for the Ruger #1.
The very few #1s ever done in 577, they had to relieve
metal behind the action shoulders that breach block
rests against because of rim. Ours don't have to and the #1s
extractors I've seen work better with belted than big rimmed.
Ours holds more powder, cases built for extreme pressures.Ed

[Linked Image]


Ed Hubel
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 647
Campfire Regular
OP Offline
Campfire Regular
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 647
Case doesn't need special made shellholder, number 31 RCBS fits fine.
It is a straight belted case that holds up to 190gr of doublebase powder.
Powder need not be like charcoal, IE, really slow powder, as necked
needs. So it has effiencies of 37-39%, where necked cases are
about 29%. Here is one done in a Savage..

[Linked Image]

The loads tested at high pressures about 65,000 psi, when extracting, the
weight of the bolt after opening pulled cases out. We've fired moderate
loads in singleshots that we mono-blocked barrels into and the cases fall
out after firing. Here are couple a nice singles with 585HE in them.

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

Cases are made super strong, in the same factory run as the super
high pressure Cheytac cases. The base of our case is same size ahead of
belt as Cheytac/Gibbs bases. Done with same cups and draws, just uses
a different header, bunter, and sizer. Here is picture of the one we made
and the factory one sectioned showing the strong built inside corners.
These are not balloon head junk cases.

[Linked Image]

We and CH4D have die sets, Manson makes reamers, and we have some.
Reamer specs all set and the chambers made with them, the cases
extract at the highest pressures.
Here is pic of one we set with 585HE in a Greener GP.Ed

[Linked Image]




Last edited by hubel458; 10/23/13.

Ed Hubel
IC B2

Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 647
Campfire Regular
OP Offline
Campfire Regular
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 647
WE get asked about whether the 585HE is a DD due to being
over 50 cal, and no it is not, as we applied for and got a
sporting cartridge exemption few years ago.

First picture is base view of cases new and old. On the left is
4 new ones that come with no headstamp that I stamped,
and the 6 new ones in the middle has a 585 stamp.
We got a barrel full without stamp and guys can wildcat
them and put their own stamp on..

Second is side view with some in # 31 holders.No special
holders needed. .Notice how uniform belts are on the new
shiny ones. Dark ones are ones I made years ago.

Third is one with AP bore rider bullet in with others
behind. Maybe make a great long range target cartridge.
Got a guy setting up one with long heavy barrel for that.

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

Here is picture of 585HE with 700gr HP CEB bullet and 750 gr
wide meplat CEB bullet..Ed

[Linked Image]


Ed Hubel
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 647
Campfire Regular
OP Offline
Campfire Regular
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 647
In the pictures above you see the older first cases I made from Nyati
cases and other cases that were Nyati clones. These were straight basic,
long, untrimed cases, so I could get the longer case we wanted.

We get asked about the process of doing it and here is picture sketch
showing original case, a case with the start of a belt step, and finally
a case after it is swaged and sized. Note the belt diameter ends up the
same as the base diameter of the original brass. These cases we made
years ago was how we got the 585HE started and tested and some guns
done. This process can only work with original cases that have a thick
corner radius to leave plenty of thickness ahead of the belt. In doing this
process with different wildcats we have found cases that wouldn't work.

[Linked Image]

Now these cases have a diameter that works with regular bolt guns,
without extreme machining on the bolt, as opposed to 577NE and Trex.
Here is picture of a case held in a Ruger bolt, for example..

[Linked Image]

And our case is large enough capacity to get the power, without being an
oversize, soft case. Thicksided cases relative to size of the case are much
harder to harden the heads and the lower body back up to proper strength.
because of the extreme annealling needed, in the drawing
and heading operations in the manufacturing process.
Our cases are made with same cups and draws as the ultra high pressure
Cheytac cases, and our real high pressure tests show they perform with
no extraction problems.

[Linked Image]

Here is picture of a O/U I had top barrel sleeved with smooth tube, and use
the 585HE in it with lightweight, hollowbase Minie bullets. Shoots about as
accurate as foster slugs in a 12ga. Bottom barrel is 3.5" 12ga smooth.

[Linked Image]







Ed Hubel
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 647
Campfire Regular
OP Offline
Campfire Regular
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 647
Some more info- For guys in other countries you can get cases
from Bertram in Australia. I can send die sets. There is a guy
in AUS that has a reamer I sent him.

We have experimented with black powder type of loads and the
Minie bullets, The Minies we use are the ones measuring .585".
Also for reduced loads with lesser amounts of powder we found
that 24ga wads work perfect in the case, like in this picture.

[Linked Image]

WE did couple guns in smooth barrel to test hollowbase Minies.
Found that they work for shot in our case. Holds 3/4 oz of shot.
Put a 24ga card on top and glue it in.

[Linked Image]

We even got one in good ole NEF, with a 585 barrel monoblocked
into it and gun weighted, with thick pad. Guy in TX got one also
and there is video on ytube-- URL below-- Ed

[Linked Image]



www.youtube.com/watch?v=HypaUdwQGAc





Ed Hubel
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 647
Campfire Regular
OP Offline
Campfire Regular
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 647
We have a guy who is working toward getting the 585HE cases into
Canada, for guys there to be able to get them from him..

Our case works for black powder type of loads using .585" Minie
Bullets also. Here is picture sectioned case with 4 Pyrodex 54 cal
pellets stacked behind a 440 gr Minie Bullet.Goes over 2500.
Can be loaded with 3 pellets and 24ga cushion wad.

[Linked Image]

Here is an innovation in a 585HE Falling Block we did. It's in a
one piece thumbhole rifle stock. Nice to handle and shoots heavy
loads a comfortable as a weighted bolt action gun. FBW brand.

[Linked Image]

Here is a bunch of barrels we have, the wrapped ones are slow
twist just for guys doing 585HE guns to use Minie bullets for
deer, hogs, target, and plain ole fun Using black or smokeless.

[Linked Image]

Here is picture of one being done by a guy on a big Enfield with a
nice figured Walnut stock. It is weighted and has a thick pad.
Being done African style with thick barrel and integral front sight.
You can see a bunch cases in background shelf.--Ed

[Linked Image]






Ed Hubel
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 647
Campfire Regular
OP Offline
Campfire Regular
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 647
Hooray the first batch 585 barrels from McGowen has got here, more
will be built.They are the regular 1 to 20 twist barrels, and we have 14
that are profiled and polished, and 3 others that are straight blanks,
1 to 20 twist. And 6 slow twist barrel blanks for guys doing mainly
Minie bullet guns, and bunch smoothbore blanks...Pics soon.

Here are couple more pictures of the gun guy is doing with nice stock.

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

Here is picture of 585 FBW falling block with a Knoxx Comstock.
Helps reduce recoil in this lighter gun. Ed

[Linked Image]


Ed Hubel
IC B3

Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 27,500
Campfire Ranger
Offline
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 27,500
Ed,

Have you built any from a good SxS shotgun? A SxS double rifle in this caliber would be a lot of fun, and useful, too! I realize that getting the barrels regulated would be a pain in the butt (and shoulder, too!) but I for one would love to have such a piece.

MARK


LOVE God, LOVE your family, LOVE your country, LIKE guns and sports.

About 2016 team "R" candidates "We definitely need a crew with a sack of balls the size of hot water bottles, bloviated estrogen leaking feel-gooders need not apply." Gunner 500
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 647
Campfire Regular
OP Offline
Campfire Regular
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 647
I got one in an O/U with top barrel 585HE,
and bottom 12ga. Put a liner in top barrel.
I don't have stuff to monoblock 585 barrels
in to a double monoblock. Be nice to have a
585HE double. Maybe some day I'll sleeve one.


Here is picture of the barrels from McGowen, with other barrels.
We got most of the McGowens profiled and some straight blanks.
Others we have are the slow twist and smooth...In back some
of the cases and die sets.

[Linked Image]

Here is picture of an Enfield and a BBK in Hogue recoil
reducing stocks. These stocks are the rubber coated with
the easy to grip, nice pistol grip..Have Mcgowen 26 inch barrels,
1 to 20 twist, barrels are heavy profile and taper
to .980 inch at the muzzle.

[Linked Image]

Here is a visual comparison of why I really like Enfields and
Rugers for big bore work. An Enfield on the left.... Lugs
built much stronger, simpler to put barrels in actions,
without the wall in the middle of front reciever. Easier
to shape breaches to feed big cases, so they don't hang up.
Left lug longer and forward, simpler to do bolt faces to hold
bigger cases...Ed

[Linked Image]


Ed Hubel
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 647
Campfire Regular
OP Offline
Campfire Regular
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 647
Here is picture of 585HE in a Montana Rifle Co. PH action.
The double stack mag for the 505 Gibbs they make works ok.
The Enfield in the Hogue stock above is gone.

[Linked Image]

We also had guy show us how the case can work for a
high energy subsonic cartridge. High energy for subsonic
1600 gr at 1050 fps. The 585HE Whisper
Anyone with some way overbore 14.9 mm necked
cases on huge actions, can make case inserts for
using our case to fire subsonic And fire 650gr or 750 gr at
high speeds. Can't get 14.9 Russian cases use ours in
same gun with inserts.

[Linked Image]


Break action I like we did on a CBC by mono-blocking in a 585
barrel set up especially for Minie bullets of 440 to 540 gr.


[Linked Image]



Ed Hubel
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 27,500
Campfire Ranger
Offline
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 27,500
Originally Posted by hubel458
I got one in an O/U with top barrel 585HE,
and bottom 12ga. Put a liner in top barrel.
I don't have stuff to monoblock 585 barrels
in to a double monoblock. Be nice to have a
585HE double. Maybe some day I'll sleeve one.


Here is picture of the barrels from McGowen, with other barrels.
We got most of the McGowens profiled and some straight blanks.
Others we have are the slow twist and smooth...In back some
of the cases and die sets.

[Linked Image]

Here is picture of an Enfield and a BBK in Hogue recoil
reducing stocks. These stocks are the rubber coated with
the easy to grip, nice pistol grip..Have Mcgowen 26 inch barrels,
1 to 20 twist, barrels are heavy profile and taper
to .980 inch at the muzzle.

[Linked Image]

Here is a visual comparison of why I really like Enfields and
Rugers for big bore work. An Enfield on the left.... Lugs
built much stronger, simpler to put barrels in actions,
without the wall in the middle of front reciever. Easier
to shape breaches to feed big cases, so they don't hang up.
Left lug longer and forward, simpler to do bolt faces to hold
bigger cases...Ed

[Linked Image]




When you decide to build one of these in SxS confguration, I would be all ears! Would love to have one, maybe even the first one. Had an SKB 20 GA that would have been a wonderful donor, but just traded it to a local plumber for a bathroom re model for my wifey frown

Keep me posted, you HAVE do do these in a SxS someday, somehow....


LOVE God, LOVE your family, LOVE your country, LIKE guns and sports.

About 2016 team "R" candidates "We definitely need a crew with a sack of balls the size of hot water bottles, bloviated estrogen leaking feel-gooders need not apply." Gunner 500
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 27,500
Campfire Ranger
Offline
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 27,500
Lots and lots of chopped up 'semi sporterized' 1917 Enfields laying around the gun shows, if I were to snag one, what is the cost to have you convert it to an HE? Including about 100 cases and a set of dies, of course.

I have a beautifull full custom 416 Rigby so don't really need one, but it sure would be a hoot to play with.

Ever tried these cases in a plain 12 GA SxS shotgun with a rifled choke tube at the ends of the barrels?


LOVE God, LOVE your family, LOVE your country, LIKE guns and sports.

About 2016 team "R" candidates "We definitely need a crew with a sack of balls the size of hot water bottles, bloviated estrogen leaking feel-gooders need not apply." Gunner 500
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 647
Campfire Regular
OP Offline
Campfire Regular
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 647
Others have used different 12ga loads with rifled
choke tubes with varying success. Accuracy depends
mostly on bullet construction/speed. Doubles are not
good for high speeds as our slow powder, fast slug loads need heavier barrels than what doubles have.

To have 585HE Enfield done with barrel cost, dies, 100
cases, singlestack mag, in a Hogue stock, and
the barrel, metal, chamber and stock fitting work $1300.
Without a stock(do your own) $1150. Without mag set up
as single shot $1000. The barrels are polished a little
and all fancy finish and blueing and stock
finish things others can do that have the tools.Ed

Last edited by hubel458; 01/26/14.

Ed Hubel
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 647
Campfire Regular
OP Offline
Campfire Regular
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 647
You can see from above posts I like Enfields and here is picture
of how we set up action for long case and a singlestack magazine.
We open bottom of action for length and use a lip type magazine
insert to feed cases single stack. And lips are springy so we
can load from the top.

[Linked Image]

Here is the second gun I did years ago in the 585HE, an old style
Ruger 77. And at that time I used the cases I made myself and
they work great in the gun, high pressure loads, and extracted easy.

[Linked Image]

Here is some math to show why I really like really big bores.
There is term called Average Barrel Pressure, which is the average of
all the pressures in a barrel, from the start where you have highest,
called peak pressure. to the lowest at the muzzle when bullet exits.
For high powered rifles average barrel pressure run 15-18000 psi.

There is a formula that can be used to get Average barrel pressure
fairly close if you know the muzzle energy.

We multiply ME times 12 and divide by barrel cross section x length.

Example a 458Win usually loaded to 5000 ft lbs, say in a 24" bbl.

ABP = ( 5000 ft lbs x 12) divided by (.17 sg in x 24") = 15,000 psi

Now you see there isn't a lot of room for big gains, as it would take
peak pressures damaging to brass and gun, to get say 50% increase.

Now example of 585HE in the 26" bbl we like, say a 7,000 ft lb load,
a real moderate load in this case.

ABP = (7000 ft lb x 12) divided by (.27 sg in x 26") = 12000 psi

The bigger bore allows for a much larger potential,
a 50% gain is easy to do.Ed



Last edited by hubel458; 02/08/14.

Ed Hubel
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 647
Campfire Regular
OP Offline
Campfire Regular
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 647
Here is a few of the variety of bullets we found or know about
to use in 585HE, about a third of them, from 440gr, to 750gr,
to 1200gr, to 1600gr.

[Linked Image]

Here is picture of what 200gr powder, in a case that had
the powder settled, looks like.

[Linked Image]

We now have more 585 new straight blanks giving a total of 9
basic blanks, with long ones for guys setting up target guns.
And a bunch more of the profiled barrels are being made
now to go with new ones we got left. One went on this BBK
pictured, 3 on Enfields, one on FBW, one a Ruger, two in PHs.
Guys have used 5 of the new slow twist barrels. Ed

[Linked Image]

Last edited by hubel458; 03/05/14.

Ed Hubel
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 647
Campfire Regular
OP Offline
Campfire Regular
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 647
There is a guy and his smith in AUS that has a reamer for the 585HE.
And maybe another firm there that can get a bunch reasonably priced
barrels imported in from the US. Our Mcgowen barrels are high quality,
hand lapped, and only half of what getting them in from other places cost.
Here is part of stuff that the guys have to work with..

[Linked Image]

Here is picture of the Mossy 390 action, after I'd set up for the 585HE.
Just to see how good the action is, and I have since set barrel back
and made it into a 24ga FH. Just makes an easy to work with test gun.
Being both use same size bore, and in 24ga with 3" chamber I can use
577 brass for 24ga cases, using same Minie and jacketed as 585HE.
58CAL IN ALL FORMS is where it is at, so to speak......Ed

[Linked Image]

PS-We have longer barrels now for target work including real heavy ones
of 1 5/8 inches, that some guys are working on getting bigger actions
set up to use them in. .


Ed Hubel
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 647
Campfire Regular
OP Offline
Campfire Regular
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 647
Here is a picture of the first 585HE to be done and firing,
in Australia, owned by the poster, tankhunter on AR forums.
Fellows there can get cases from Bertram. I can send
dies and reamers.And can get dies from CH4D.
There soon will be 3 reamers there.

And now a company starting to make 585 barrels there.
I have about 17 here, so no waiting here.

Allan and Grant Swan. in Redbank, Queensland...
allanswan at uplink.net.au.

[Linked Image]

WE have cases with plain heads if guys need some for
wlldcatting, necking down, and they can put on their
own headstamp.Ed

[Linked Image]


Ed Hubel
Page 1 of 6 1 2 3 4 5 6

Moderated by  RickBin 

Link Copied to Clipboard
YB23

Who's Online Now
711 members (117LBS, 10gaugemag, 12344mag, 01Foreman400, 10Glocks, 74 invisible), 2,652 guests, and 1,303 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Statistics
Forums81
Topics1,187,683
Posts18,399,735
Members73,820
Most Online11,491
Jul 7th, 2023


 







Fish & Game Departments | Solunar Tables | Mission Statement | Privacy Policy | Contact Us | DMCA
Hunting | Fishing | Camping | Backpacking | Reloading | Campfire Forums | Gear Shop
Copyright © 2000-2024 24hourcampfire.com, Inc. All Rights Reserved.
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5
(Release build 20201027)
Responsive Width:

PHP: 7.3.33 Page Time: 0.092s Queries: 14 (0.003s) Memory: 0.9168 MB (Peak: 1.0918 MB) Data Comp: Zlib Server Time: 2024-03-28 22:14:11 UTC
Valid HTML 5 and Valid CSS