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Originally Posted by Steelhead
Originally Posted by Take_a_knee
Originally Posted by Steelhead


Compelling. Again, you have no first hand experience so in stead of following the STFU approach you show yourself to be the [bleep] many of us know you are.

Congratulations.


Don't you have something that needs mopping or painted gray? Speaking of STFU....


How many bears have you killed?


How many have you killed?

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This thread has become classic, a wonderful example of someone asking a question, people with actual experience answering, and then people without experience acting like they know the answer and insisting on arguing about it.

Just because you really really like something and want/hope it will work doesn't mean it will. And that's okay.

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Originally Posted by Wild_Bill_375
He kills a charging Kodiak with a 06 & 220gr Partitions (cause they penetrate deepest) 458Win has got some kahunas (spelling?)

Not a Kodiak, FYI.


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Take A Knee, Sorry I got a bit sarcastic but I am a bit long in the tooth to believe in magic bullets that penetrate all the way through anything, at any distance, and destroy everything in between.
Maybe I can't shoot as well as you but I have killed an awful lot of animals at both close range and at long range to believe that one bullet is best in all situations.

If you tell me that you chronographed the loads and know they were going X? fps and you saw the exit hole first hand I have no reason to doubt you. And I am quite sure you will never experience a failure if ever forced into a close range defensive situation with a grizzly.


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Anyone who claims the 30-06 is not effective has either not used one, or else is unwittingly commenting on their marksmanship.
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Originally Posted by ironbender
Originally Posted by Wild_Bill_375
He kills a charging Kodiak with a 06 & 220gr Partitions (cause they penetrate deepest) 458Win has got some kahunas (spelling?)

Not a Kodiak, FYI.


Sorry most be my eyes playing tricks on me, I meant Brown Bear. whistle

Or maybe I should just say BIG FRIGGING BEAR! laugh

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Kodiak's don't usually get that big grin

However the long standing world's record was killed on Kodiak --- with a 30-06


Here is another Berger sized bruin

[Linked Image]


Phil Shoemaker
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www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com

Anyone who claims the 30-06 is not effective has either not used one, or else is unwittingly commenting on their marksmanship.
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Dang Phil! So what's the trick? Shoot'em from helo's or airplanes! You certainly have my respect! cool

Last edited by Wild_Bill_375; 10/28/13.
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Originally Posted by UncleJesse
What say you? Should I be shooting a different bullet in Grizz country? Time to build a 338? My partner had an -06 with 180 grain Accubonds and I certainly was more confident in his load doing the job should it need to be done.


Without getting into the religion of bullets, it seems pretty clear that YOU were not confident in your bullet selection. No matter what anyone says, the next time out you will spend more time thinking about your bullet choice than hunting.

Having once taken a 30-06 with a frangible bullet after elk, it sucked. Probably would have been fine but I dwelled on the issue and did not enjoy the hunt.

Confidence in what you are shooting is probably more important than Berger vs. Barnes. Because you probably are just going to get ate anyway. Just ask this guy.

http://billingsgazette.com/lifestyl...14ba69d-ddad-5917-95f9-c1c56e7f6209.html

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Originally Posted by JohnBurns


I am not sure where the charge thing came from, other than Steelhead gigging me. He has seen the video.


Posted by Uncle Jesse - OP. P 1.

"I've decided to hunt Elk and Mule Deer with the 155 Berger VLD out of my T3 308 this year. Everything was fine and dandy until yesterday when I was slowly walking down a two track to meet up with my hunting partner when I was startled by about a 3 year old Grizz crossing 88 yards ahead of me. The wind was blowing from 8 to 2 o'clock in front of me. I immediately halted all progress and decided to stand my ground, rifle off my shoulder.

AFAIK, the bear left without so much as a grunt but it was an uneasy 10 minutes waiting for my partner to arrive. He had to have winded me. Suddenly I felt the urge to be shooting an accubond or partition.

What say you? Should I be shooting a different bullet in Grizz country? Time to build a 338? My partner had an -06 with 180 grain Accubonds and I certainly was more confident in his load doing the job should it need to be done."


IF I understand correctly, the 'charging thing' was understood/implied as a possible event. U J was giving serious consideration as to WHICH bullet he SHOULD be using knowing that an "unexpected charge" can occur while deer/elk hunting. Such things HAVE HAPPENED.

FWIW - I'll take 458 Win's recommendation, NO ?? asked.




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You just have to hunt them where they are. Which for these big bears is typically in thick pucker brush - whether it's on Kodiak or the peninsula. That is why I have all the gray in my beard -- I am only 33.
I wonder how Bergers are a bucking brush ? confused


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www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com

Anyone who claims the 30-06 is not effective has either not used one, or else is unwittingly commenting on their marksmanship.
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This is an sample of one.
I'm not a grizzly hunter, but hunt in grizzly country. I have taken 28 elk, 22 were bulls.
All with Nosler Partitions, Trophy Bonded, Swift A-Frame, Hornady Interbond, and Nosler Accubond. In roughly correct chronological order. You can see the theory I favored in selecting bullets from this list.
On Oct. 15 I used a 230 grain Berger OTM Hybrid to take a 6x5 bull. .300 Win Mag, range 350 yards, muzzle velocity 2775, impact velocity 2400 fps +or-. Bullet hit directly on the near side shoulder bone just above the "knee" and under the wide "blade", made a mess of the lungs near the heart, and I found this in the hide on the far side with no further bone hit. Retained weight 81 grains. The bull went down when hit, no tracking needed, the near shoulder was completely unhinged. Wish now I took more damage pics, wasn't trying to prove anything at that time.
My conclusion after what I witnessed I would trust this combo on a grizzly in most any scenario.

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Originally Posted by 458Win
Take A Knee, Sorry I got a bit sarcastic but I am a bit long in the tooth to believe in magic bullets that penetrate all the way through anything, at any distance, and destroy everything in between.


Phil I got no dog in this bullet debate (I just like twistin' Steelhead's fur through the fence), especially when it comes to bears. I watched an 8ft brownie standing on his hind legs (15yd away) take an 8mm core-loct in the sternum and still run 75yd. He had to be shot again to keep him from crawling into a creek. That ain't even a big brownie. That is the sum total of my brown bear experience, that and carrying that skull off the top of Hinchinbrook Island. I KNOW what Bergers do to deer but I'll be "loaded for bear" with TSX's if I ever make it back to AK.

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I'm just glad I only have Black Bears where I hunt elk. Whatever will work on the elk I'm hunting will work on any bear I see. No desire to be anywhere near those things Phil has shot.

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Phil, if I ever hunt with you, would you do me a favor and go in first? A fearless guide like yourself could, I assume, tie him up for me! whistle And I see why your beard is gray! There is no way you'd see this pilgrim picking a fight in thick pucker brush with a BIG BEAR on purpose! laugh

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Originally Posted by pabucktail
This thread has become classic, a wonderful example of someone asking a question, people with actual experience answering, and then people without experience acting like they know the answer and insisting on arguing about it.

Just because you really really like something and want/hope it will work doesn't mean it will. And that's okay.


It is funny. Seems like there is only one guy in the entire thread that has actually stuck a Berger in a Grizzly. laugh

Originally Posted by 458Win
There is a little bit of difference between the velocity, and more importantly the performance, of a Berger bullet at the muzzle and one at 620 yard - and no animal ( except man) can be considered dangerous at that distance.


Phil,

I will have to disagree with you on that, the part about Berger VLD bullet performance. I base this on shoulder shooting way more than a few elk from under 100yds to over 1100yds. One of the major factors that drove me to use the VLD type bullet was the boringly consistent terminal results from close to far.

Elk skulls are similar in size to our largest Grizzlies and I have noggin shot elk from point blank to 800yds and again VLDs simply perform. If anything the VLD is slower to expand at close range (the core is still hard at close range).

Originally Posted by 458Win
I don't know your load but what do you figure the velocity of your bullet was when it struck the bear at that distance? I would guess it under 2000fps and about the same energy as a 30-30 ?


I was shooting a 7mm Rem Mag with a muzzle velocity of 2975fps with the 180gr VLD.

Conditions were 2500ft and 45 degrees temp so impact velocity was 2300 fps.

Do we really want to go down the road that rifles are more effective at 620yds than at the muzzle??

The other bear was at 175yds but the bullet was launched from a 7mm Rem Mag. 2975 fps at the muzzle. Impact was at 2768 fps into the shoulders and pretty similar to the OPs .308 Win load at contact distance. Sucked the life out of that bear so fast it was one of the few animals I have ever seen that literally died with it�s feet up in the air.

Originally Posted by 458Win
WOW,
Does that mean that all this heavy, bonded core, homogenous bullet hype is simply BS?
I image all the elephant cullers in Africa will be ordering them by the truck load.


Well that really is hyperbole. Nobody suggested shooting elephant with VLDs. The OP was asking about switching out his deer/elk load because he got a little worried about a 2yr old grizzly. cool Seriously Phil he got worried about a 2yr old grizzly. 250 lbs tops????????????

Originally Posted by prairie_goat
You've gotta be kidding me. The Berger hype has officially went to a whole new level of ridiculousness when someone recommends them for elephants.


Yes we are really recommending VLDs for face shooting Rogue Bull Elephants. Run and tell your buddies. Quickly.Like as in right now. Lives are on the line. laugh Only PG can save the day cause the elephant are going to stomp all us VLD elk killin bums into a mud puddle. laugh

Dude, A GRIP. Get one. cool
Originally Posted by ironbender
Originally Posted by prairie_goat
You've gotta be kidding me. The Berger hype has officially went to a whole new level of ridiculousness when someone recommends them for elephants.


All size critters, from all cartridges, at all distances. Hide, bone, organs - it doesn't matter.

Bergers are PFM in every situation.


You might actually do well to heed your own advise. Of course you could continue to guess at how the big boys play the game.

Originally Posted by Steelhead
Pretty sure the bear charging stuff begun when the OP started the thread. Griz defense with Bergers. Ain't no griz defense going on at 620 yards, and no I didn't watch the video.

You have been wrong so many times on the 'Fire that this is about as sporty as screwing a retard.


Lil Scotty,

You were just the first guy to post in the thread with the video of the Grizzly kill, right??? Kinda like ol Slick Willie didn't really inhale. You always make me smile but I do worry about you fading away with this retirement thing. Not good for your health buddy. Find something useful to do and soon. HINT!!!

Ps. 60K posts on the Fire is not exactly what I am talking about.

Originally Posted by prairie_goat
Originally Posted by RDFinn
Originally Posted by JohnBurns
if I get ate by a bear


....just make sure that gets video taped............... grin


As Timothy Treadwell became Timothy Tastewell, so will John Burns be know as John Burns On The Way In and the Way Out.

Well I was kinda thinking we could start a Campfire collection to buy Johnny B (Me don�t want that other JB getting my �Glory�) a Phil Brown Bear hunt. Johnny B gets one .264 Win Mag with a 140gr VLD and Phil agrees to film the disaster.

I figure Phil is going to need at a min 2X his going rate to tolerate the obvious (Me) and the going rate for Phil (by the hour)would make a bunch of high priced shyster lawyers question their billing. He is most likely worth it.

So Campfire buddies do you all want to see me get ate by the bear?? I sure would love to post a pict of 30 inches of bear noggin bone with a VLD hole though the middle. Might make me smile. grin


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They can't stop the signal.

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Originally Posted by JohnBurns
Originally Posted by pabucktail
This thread has become classic, a wonderful example of someone asking a question, people with actual experience answering, and then people without experience acting like they know the answer and insisting on arguing about it.

Just because you really really like something and want/hope it will work doesn't mean it will. And that's okay.


It is funny. Seems like there is only one guy in the entire thread that has actually stuck a Berger in a Grizzly. laugh

Originally Posted by 458Win
There is a little bit of difference between the velocity, and more importantly the performance, of a Berger bullet at the muzzle and one at 620 yard - and no animal ( except man) can be considered dangerous at that distance.


Phil,

I will have to disagree with you on that, the part about Berger VLD bullet performance. I base this on shoulder shooting way more than a few elk from under 100yds to over 1100yds. One of the major factors that drove me to use the VLD type bullet was the boringly consistent terminal results from close to far.

Elk skulls are similar in size to our largest Grizzlies and I have noggin shot elk from point blank to 800yds and again VLDs simply perform. If anything the VLD is slower to expand at close range (the core is still hard at close range).

Originally Posted by 458Win
I don't know your load but what do you figure the velocity of your bullet was when it struck the bear at that distance? I would guess it under 2000fps and about the same energy as a 30-30 ?


I was shooting a 7mm Rem Mag with a muzzle velocity of 2975fps with the 180gr VLD.

Conditions were 2500ft and 45 degrees temp so impact velocity was 2300 fps.

Do we really want to go down the road that rifles are more effective at 620yds than at the muzzle??

The other bear was at 175yds but the bullet was launched from a 7mm Rem Mag. 2975 fps at the muzzle. Impact was at 2768 fps into the shoulders and pretty similar to the OPs .308 Win load at contact distance. Sucked the life out of that bear so fast it was one of the few animals I have ever seen that literally died with it�s feet up in the air.

Originally Posted by 458Win
WOW,
Does that mean that all this heavy, bonded core, homogenous bullet hype is simply BS?
I image all the elephant cullers in Africa will be ordering them by the truck load.


Well that really is hyperbole. Nobody suggested shooting elephant with VLDs. The OP was asking about switching out his deer/elk load because he got a little worried about a 2yr old grizzly. cool Seriously Phil he got worried about a 2yr old grizzly. 250 lbs tops????????????

Originally Posted by prairie_goat
You've gotta be kidding me. The Berger hype has officially went to a whole new level of ridiculousness when someone recommends them for elephants.


Yes we are really recommending VLDs for face shooting Rogue Bull Elephants. Run and tell your buddies. Quickly.Like as in right now. Lives are on the line. laugh Only PG can save the day cause the elephant are going to stomp all us VLD elk killin bums into a mud puddle. laugh

Dude, A GRIP. Get one. cool
Originally Posted by ironbender
Originally Posted by prairie_goat
You've gotta be kidding me. The Berger hype has officially went to a whole new level of ridiculousness when someone recommends them for elephants.


All size critters, from all cartridges, at all distances. Hide, bone, organs - it doesn't matter.

Bergers are PFM in every situation.


You might actually do well to heed your own advise. Of course you could continue to guess at how the big boys play the game.

Originally Posted by Steelhead
Pretty sure the bear charging stuff begun when the OP started the thread. Griz defense with Bergers. Ain't no griz defense going on at 620 yards, and no I didn't watch the video.

You have been wrong so many times on the 'Fire that this is about as sporty as screwing a retard.


Lil Scotty,

You were just the first guy to post in the thread with the video of the Grizzly kill, right??? Kinda like ol Slick Willie didn't really inhale. You always make me smile but I do worry about you fading away with this retirement thing. Not good for your health buddy. Find something useful to do and soon. HINT!!!

Ps. 60K posts on the Fire is not exactly what I am talking about.

Originally Posted by prairie_goat
Originally Posted by RDFinn
Originally Posted by JohnBurns
if I get ate by a bear


....just make sure that gets video taped............... grin


As Timothy Treadwell became Timothy Tastewell, so will John Burns be know as John Burns On The Way In and the Way Out.

Well I was kinda thinking we could start a Campfire collection to buy Johnny B (Me don�t want that other JB getting my �Glory�) a Phil Brown Bear hunt. Johnny B gets one .264 Win Mag with a 140gr VLD and Phil agrees to film the disaster.

I figure Phil is going to need at a min 2X his going rate to tolerate the obvious (Me) and the going rate for Phil (by the hour)would make a bunch of high priced shyster lawyers question their billing. He is most likely worth it.

So Campfire buddies do you all want to see me get ate by the bear?? I sure would love to post a pict of 30 inches of bear noggin bone with a VLD hole though the middle. Might make me smile. grin



I'm rcamuglia and I approve of this message.


grin



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The people wringing their hands over Trump's rhetoric don't know what time it is in America.
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Nice Elk above, I'll leave Stopping the Big Bears to you Berger Lovers. As tough and strong as Elk are, they are not known to bite, swipe, or otherwise decapitate humans. Something tells me large bears have a little more meanness in them.

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Originally Posted by JohnBurns

Originally Posted by 458Win
There is a little bit of difference between the velocity, and more importantly the performance, of a Berger bullet at the muzzle and one at 620 yard - and no animal ( except man) can be considered dangerous at that distance.


Phil,

I will have to disagree with you on that, the part about Berger VLD bullet performance. I base this on shoulder shooting way more than a few elk from under 100yds to over 1100yds. One of the major factors that drove me to use the VLD type bullet was the boringly consistent terminal results from close to far.




I will have to take your work for it . And you did say they always exit also!
I can't believe that all these years I have been so gullible as to have fallen for all that bonded core, homogenous bullet BS.


Phil Shoemaker
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Alaska Hunter Ed Instructor
FAA Master pilot
www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com

Anyone who claims the 30-06 is not effective has either not used one, or else is unwittingly commenting on their marksmanship.
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...always remain teachable..

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In summary, no one has said that a Gameking, Matchking, Blitzking, Berger VLD, , Ballistic Tip, or Powerlokt can't kill bears. It just that there are several good choices which none of them equal when things get brown and runny. And some of them have been taking elk and dispatching wayward bears a quantity of times longer than "anything Berger" has been around. That doesn't mean that a Berger is somehow a bad hunting bullet. There ain't one best bullet for everything, and few more than that which do most things well.


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