Home Forums Hunting & Shooting AR and Tactical Rifles Trigger question

Need to improve a trigger on an Oly, what's a good way to go?

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There are several threads on other boards that refer to a "15 min. trigger job". If you follow the simple instructions, it will improve your trigger quite a bit. Brownell's also has reduced-power spring sets for AR's. They are easy to install and they also will help your trigger.

If you don't mind spending a little money, you can buy a "drop in" trigger from many sources. Rock River makes a two-stage that's pretty good. JP now makes a drop-in as well. Chip McCormick makes several drop-in triggers but those that I have used were poor, and not worth the investment.

If you have a gunsmith in the area that is familiar with AR's, you should be able to get a pretty good trigger job for around $30-$40.

I'm a self-confessed trigger freak. I like crispy and I like consistent.
Here's my rundown on AR triggers that I have or had and have significant time on (in order of preference);

Stoner aka KAC aka Knight - this is the crispiest AR trigger I've ever played with. Easy to install, easy to pull out and tweak. A certain multiple time Highpower champion used one when he won with a Gasgun because he felt it gave the best feel. Downside is that they're expensive ~$300 and hard to get with the war efforts sucking up alot of KAC's production.

Geiselle - I just started playing with this one and I like it. Not as crisp as the KAC, but very good nonetheless. Easy installation (excellent detailed instructions). Easy adjustment on engagement, first and second stage weight. Most feel it has the quickest lock time. I have no way to quantify that. Readily available, but costly ~$280.

Rock River - good basic design. When tuned by a good trigger man like John Holliger, these are excellent. Unfortunately quality is spotty and a good portion of these "need" the tuning. Best part is that they are inexpensive at under $100. Even with a $30 tune job you have a very good value.

Milazzo - These were the old gold standard. These NEED to be tuned by someone that knows what they're doing. Untuned they can be as creepy and inconsistent as any other bad trigger. Tuned, they are great, durable and reliable triggers.

Armalite - same comments as the Rock River, but at a higher cost.

Jewell - Some folks like them because they're available and they can be tuned for weight without removing them from the gun. I don't put much value into those features. My experience with these has not been good. I got one with a misground hammer, it uses proprietary springs that weaken over time (Jewell will refurb your trigger when the time comes for a price). What's most bothersome to me is that mine is inconsistent in feel from pull to pull. I believe it's a function of the slop in the disconnector on it's boss. All that for $180 bucks!

CLE - Compass Lake makes great rifles and other parts....unfortunately not great triggers. This is a reworked GI trigger. During my time with this trigger, I lost the first stage, and had it become a hair trigger...all during a match. This in spite of following the instructions to keep it lubed with Moly grease. I've come to find that my experience was hardly unique.

Bushmaster - a copy of the CLE with all the associated challenges and more.

I'm not a fan of the single stage triggers like the JP, Accuracy Speaks and the Chip McCormick. With single stage triggers, you're playing with sear engagement to achieve "feel". Not exactly a good situation with a semi-auto. I know many have used them successfully. I won't...because I like consistency and "crispy" all at the same time.

I'm a self-confessed trigger freak. I like crispy and I like consistent.
Here's my rundown on AR triggers that I have or had and have significant time on (in order of preference);

Stoner aka KAC aka Knight - this is the crispiest AR trigger I've ever played with. Easy to install, easy to pull out and tweak. A certain multiple time Highpower champion used one when he won with a Gasgun because he felt it gave the best feel. Downside is that they're expensive ~$300 and hard to get with the war efforts sucking up alot of KAC's production.

Geiselle - I just started playing with this one and I like it. Not as crisp as the KAC, but very good nonetheless. Easy installation (excellent detailed instructions). Easy adjustment on engagement, first and second stage weight. Most feel it has the quickest lock time. I have no way to quantify that. Readily available, but costly ~$280.

Rock River - good basic design. When tuned by a good trigger man like John Holliger, these are excellent. Unfortunately quality is spotty and a good portion of these "need" the tuning. Best part is that they are inexpensive at under $100. Even with a $30 tune job you have a very good value.

Milazzo - These were the old gold standard. These NEED to be tuned by someone that knows what they're doing. Untuned they can be as creepy and inconsistent as any other bad trigger. Tuned, they are great, durable and reliable triggers. Good luck finding one. Charlie Milazzo doesn't return phone calls and I've been on his waiting list for something like 10 years now. I've had a few pass thru my hands now and I've not kept any (too many better alternatives).

Armalite - same comments as the Rock River, but at a higher cost.

Jewell - Some folks like them because they're available and they can be tuned for weight without removing them from the gun. I don't put much value into those features. My experience with these has not been good. I got one with a misground hammer, it uses proprietary springs that weaken over time (Jewell will refurb your trigger when the time comes for a price). What's most bothersome to me is that mine is inconsistent in feel from pull to pull. I believe it's a function of the slop in the disconnector on it's boss. All that for $180 bucks!

CLE - Compass Lake makes great rifles and other parts....unfortunately not great triggers. This is a reworked GI trigger. During my time with this trigger, I lost the first stage, and had it become a hair trigger...all during a match. This in spite of following the instructions to keep it lubed with Moly grease. I've come to find that my experience was hardly unique.

Bushmaster - a copy of the CLE with all the associated challenges and more.

I'm not a fan of the single stage triggers like the JP, Accuracy Speaks and the Chip McCormick. With single stage triggers, you're playing with sear engagement to achieve "feel". Not exactly a good situation with a semi-auto. I know many have used them successfully. I won't...because I like consistency and "crispy" all at the same time.

Super post Chris.

Super post Chris!

Wow!!

Thanks for all that info Chris. Obviously loaded with experience.

ChrisF, I have sold a fair amount of Jewell triggers and own a few myself. Up till I started working with Jewell, I made my own. They were a single-stage much like the JP or the Accuracy Speaks triggers. I would purchase triggers in the "raw", before they were machined and hardened. That allowed me to leave the trigger longer and get less disconnector/sear jump. This makes for a great, single-stage trigger, but it is not easily adjustable. Because of the incredibly minute sear engagement and the critical timing issues with the disconnector, the trigger can't simply be "adjusted" in the field like the Jewell. Many of my customers, and myself have found that having the ability to change your trigger from a "load development" trigger to a "big-game" or "predator" trigger in the matter of a few seconds was a huge advantage. I do have a Max-Hard lower with one of my triggers in it just for target and load development, but not everyone has that option. The Jewell gives anyone who owns one the ability to have many different triggers for many different applications.

As far as inconsistent pull, I have never found that. I don't know if you have a bad one, or an older model or if I am just lucky but I have yet to have any problem with a Jewell trigger.

DTech,
Bill Wylde, Al Turner and others used to rework the GI trigger design when there was nothing else. Thankfully we've progressed beyond that.

I'd bet that for some, Jewell is a quantum leap in feel from the GI triggers that they're coming off of. Like I said, I'm a trigger freak, and I like crispy and consistent. Where it matters the most is shooting Standing where you're timing a wobble. Off a bench or other supported position, I'd make do with anything resembling the break of a stale pretzel. When Holliger started offering his "tuned" RRA triggers there was a rash of used Jewells hitting the market. With the introduction of the Geissele, there are again more used Jewells being offered up on the Highpower boards.

To be fair, I've played with some Jewells that were just fine. But I've felt that for $180 bucks, you shouldn't have to be playing an odds game.

DTech,
There was a time when the AR Pioneers like Bill Wylde, Al Turner and others would rework the GI Trigger design. Thankfully we've progressed beyond that.

For some folk like those taking that first step up from a GI design, the Jewell will be the greatest trigger they ever felt. But like I mentioned earlier, I'm picky on my triggers...and there are better than the Jewell out there. When Holliger started offering his "tuned" RRA's, there was a rash of used Jewells being sold on the Highpower boards. One feller from Texas sold 3 of his at firesale prices. With the introduction of the Geissele, I've noticed more Jewells being pulled and replaced.

To be fair, I've also played with some Jewells that were just fine. ...and there are those that are tuning the slop out of the Jewells etc...but I've felt that for 180 bucks, you shouldn't have to be playing the odds of getting a good one, or paying someone extra to make right what should have been from the beginning.

DTech, have you spent much time with a MKII, KAC or Geissele?

No I haven't. While talking with John Holinger about triggers he urged me to try one of the Geisseles but I haven't had time. For years the only trigger I used was my own. Over the years I have probably made and installed around 500 of them. My business has now gotten to the point where if I take a day to make triggers, that takes away from time that I could spend building a custom gun. There are many custom services that I used to offer that I no longer have time for. It's unfortunate, but it's just more cost-effective for me to build guns, than to build triggers.

There's a saying...
"A fly raised in a jar of vinegar will think that it's the sweetest place on earth." ...or sumthing along those lines.

There's a saying...
"A fly raised in a jar of vinegar will think that it's the sweetest place on earth." ...or sumthing along those lines.

Try a KAC or Geissele. In my 4-1/2 lb world, they are the best.

My single-stage trigger is actually quite fine. Labor intensive, but very good. The fact that I have not had or taken the opportunity to try ALL of the triggers available out there for an AR, doesn't necessarily mean that I don't know what a "good" trigger is. The statement about being raised in a jar of vinegar is perhaps a little presumptuous, without you having lived in "my jar of vinegar"

Dtich,
My comment was actually based on our differing opinions on the Jewells. I've not tried your modified GI triggers and thus can't/won't comment on those.

My comment as pointed as it may be was from my viewpoint as a consumer. When one is specializing in the Custom AR market, wouldn't it make sense to have some working knowlege of the aftermarket triggers out there? At least that's my minimum expectation when my smith makes a recommendation.

Dtich,
My comment was actually based on our differing opinions on the Jewells. I've not tried your modified GI triggers and thus can't/won't comment on those, especially since you're not making them any longer.

My comment as pointed as it may be was from my viewpoint as a consumer. When one is specializing in the Custom AR market, wouldn't it make sense to have some working knowlege of the aftermarket triggers out there? At least that's my minimum expectation when my smith makes a recommendation.

My triggers are not/were not modified GI triggers. Like I said, I got the triggers before they were "born" and built them from there. Yes, they are a single-stage, but that's where the similarity ends.

I find triggers to be very subjective. A trigger that seems mushy or has too much creep for me may seem great to another, and vice-versa. You seem to have rolled triggers into a nice, neat little package that applies to all. I have found that doesn't work with my customers. I'm not a bench-rest or high-power shooter. I'm not a professional predator hunter or bounty hunter. I did, however, grow up in my father's gun shop, hunted and shot all my life, and for the last 14 years built custom AR's. Even though I devote most of my time and energy to the "heart" of the AR, the upper, I believe I have enough experience with the AR platform to make some reasonable recommendations. You, on the other hand, seem to know pretty much everything about AR triggers and could probably make a living advising others on the their pros and cons.

Jewel remains junk in the AR versions. Thats simple and known by the top shooters of the AR platform. Like Chris said, they are much better than the stock trigger, but in the trigger world they ain't squat. Its like me saying a 700 Remmy trigger vs a HR single shot trigger. That HR is bad, but the 700 will never be like a jewel bolt gun version.

Changing trigger weights has never been productive to me. I stick with 4.5 pound triggers and learn to shoot them and can shoot some decently small groups with them. Introducing variables from one outing to another in the way of trigger pulls, makes very little sense and can lead to some horrible habits. I can do the adaption but its one more thing to have to remember.

Chris is very picky about his triggers thats for sure!! And I don't blame him. I"m just very lucky to have 2 tuned Milazzo triggers that keep running. Had 3 jewel triggers, sold all of them, though I had a very early one that I could have kept from a junior since it was decent. I have one armalite. It requires constant work. I have probably close to 10 RRA triggers and at last look still have 2 on a peg in the safe. No issues yet. Tried a KAC and it was very good. have not had the Geisselle, but if I had to get another for my main gun I'd try it from the lock time side of the issue.

At the heart of the matter, the single stage trigger can never be made like a bolt gun trigger and stay safe and reliable. While the 2 stage can be made both low weight(not in mere ounces though) and very safe and repeatable while maintaining no creep. And not having a chance to double or as easily milk the trigger.

Jeff

Dtech,
First off let me apologize for stepping on your sensitivities. I agree that triggers feel is a very subjective topic. With that said, I will point out that I qualified my review a couple of times with statements of what I liked. I'm finding that while not all are as particular on triggers as I am, most tend to like a crisp trigger and consistency (no matter what type of feel it has). I do know of one very good shooter in my sport that likes a bit of "roll" in his trigger as well.

I'm sure you're well able to make "reasonable recommendations" on AR triggers. I'm merely pointing out that in my view and in my world (again if you read back, I qualified that), there are triggers worth looking at beyond the Jewell.

Do I know everything about AR triggers? Not hardly, but I've had the privelege to play with more than most without any commercial interest or profit involved (just a comment about me...not about you). The comment about the fly and vinegar was just as much as statement about my evolution with AR triggers as it was about folk that like the Jewell. I started off with a CLE because I couldn't get a MKII. I thought it was a quantum leap above the GI triggers (for a gas gun!). I tried a Jewell and thought it better. Got my hands on a KAC. Now all triggers are measured on that standard for me.

Dtech,
First off let me apologize for stepping on your sensitivities. I agree that triggers feel is a very subjective topic. With that said, I will point out that I qualified my review a couple of times with statements of what I liked. I'm finding that while not all are as particular on triggers as I am, most tend to like a crisp trigger and consistency (no matter what type of feel it has). I do know of one very good shooter in my sport that likes a bit of "roll" in his trigger as well.

I'm sure you're well able to make "reasonable recommendations" on AR triggers. I'm merely pointing out that in my view and in my world (again if you read back, I qualified that), there are triggers worth looking at beyond the Jewell.

Do I know everything about AR triggers? Not hardly, but I've had the privelege to play with more than most without any commercial interest or profit involved (just a comment about me...not about you). The comment about the fly and vinegar was just as much as statement about my evolution with AR triggers as it was about folk that like the Jewell. I started off with a CLE because I couldn't get a MKII. I thought it was a quantum leap above the GI triggers (for a gas gun!). I tried a Jewell and thought it better. Got my hands on a KAC. Now all triggers are measured on that standard for me.