Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunting Rifles Pros and cons... Win 70 and Ruger 77 ???

This has probably been beat to death, so I apologize in advance if this is a dead horse but I didn't find much info with interweb searches. Mostly personal bias with little substance.

What are the Pros and Cons of the Winchester 70 (FN, BACO) and the Ruger 77 (Hawkeye, MKii)? I'm looking to add another CRF rifle to the collection and want the Campfire opinion on these rifles, good and bad.

Here is what I think I know

Ruger 77 (MKii and Hawkeye)

From what I gather, the pros of the Ruger are lower cost and simpler trigger compared to the MOA (in theory more reliable in harsh conditions?). In terms of gas handling, the bolt vents to the magazine instead of the left lug raceway. The bolt stop also appears to be a baffle, and the bolt shroud covers the end of the raceway. Ruger stainless has been extremely resistant to rust for me, at least with their other firearms. Not sure if this is true with the 77 though. I have only owned one Hawkeye briefly, and just bought a MKii so have zero field time with them.

Cons to the Ruger... fit and finish are sometimes lacking. Interior/underside surfaces are rough casting surfaces. Doesn't affect function but its annoying to some. The triggers have never felt good to me, but this can be fixed. You also need a pin to disassemble the bolt. Not a big deal, but would prefer to fieldstrip the bolt without a tool. Although I like the 3-position safety, I'd prefer it to be mounted on the bolt and not receiver.

The rings could be considered a pro by some and con by others. At least they are free and you just need to buy one to go up or down in scope height by one size. Not much aftermarket options though.

Winchester Model 70 (FN BACO)

Pros to the Win... the bolt can be fieldstripped without tools. The newer 70 rifles now have a baffle added to the bolt to block the left lug raceway. Fit and finish is better than Ruger. Safety is on the bolt, not the receiver.

Cons to the Win... are there vent holes in the bolt? Do they vent to the left raceway? Even so, there is a baffle now so i suppose this is less of an issue. The enclosed trigger seems less desirable than the P-64 or Ruger. Winchester also requires rings, and it seems that some people replace the MIM extractor.

Comparison

They both seem like good rifles, if you want CRF and 3-position safety. The main difference that I see is that the money saved with the Ruger could go towards a good stock like a McM.

If she blows, the bottom metal and mag box will bend and bow, and stock will split. The bolt stop will break, and the shroud won't help yer face very much.......got the t-shirt.

I remember seeing your pics huntsman, ouch. What caused the case failure?

Don't own a Win 70, but have a M77 Mk II (300 win mag, laminate stock).

Anyway� at least for the Ruger
Pro.
Really smooth and strong action. And just a solid rifle, fit and finish are great on mine! I also like the factory laminate stock.

Cons.
Hate how the action screws are standard flat head screws. Same with the scope rings. Plus that angled action screw needs a good 95 in-lbs torque. Also wish they gave me a bit more magazine length. 3.340" is the standard for the 300 winnie, and I can only go about 3.350" max, which sits me like 0.1" or so off the lands. Not too big of a deal, but one less thing that can be tweaked on load development.

Dunno. Ruger never said anything but 'overpressure situation' and sent the rifle to hornady for further evaluation. Of course THEY never said, because it was their factory load that went kablooie.....

My MKii has flat blade screws too. I wonder if the Hawkeye action screws fit? I thought they were allen/hex on my Alaskan.

That said, it must not have bothered me too much. I've bought 5 or 6 77's since.....

I thought you were a Ruger guy. Do you have a preference for Mkii or Hawkeyes?

Makes me wonder if the situation would have been worse with a different rifle like a P-64. I know on a Tikka there ain't much of anything stopping gas towards your face.

I'm a Winchester guy, pre-64's, XTR's, Classics, they all work. If you are going to buy new get a Ruger. The Baco's aren't a real Winchester.

never had a hawkeye

Pros: They both work, nuff said...

I have both, I like both.
I have had very good luck with the accuracy of the three hawkeyes I currently have. I did do a bit of tinkering on them though, freed up the magazine boxes and a bit of lug polishing on two of them. Two of the hawkeyes were easier to develop good loads for than the Mod 70, but all came around in the end and deliver adequate accuracy.
The metal to wood fit and finish was fine on all three. I tend to think the fit of the stock is just as liable to be bad in either the Wins or Rugers, as I've seen off center barrel channels and poor action fit in both on the shelf.
The action was not near as smooth out of the box as the Winchesters, but they did all smooth up nicely with use. Triggers have all been okay with the hawkeyes, better to me than the last version.

I've owned quite a few of both and the Rugers dating back to introduction; have had two Hawkeyes and think they are an improvement over any earlier Ruger M77's as an over the counter rifle.

By a slight margin I prefer the M70's but if they were not around I'd hunt anything anywhere with a Ruger Hawkeye.

The M70 has, I think ,more lightweight after market stock options. The recent BACCO M70's I have owned/shot (3 270's and 2 300 WSM's)needed literally nothing in the way of tweaking...but then a 375 Ruger African and a 7 Rem Mag didn't either....all were very good out of the box.

I sell the Ruger rings back to the store and buy Leupolds which are trimmer and nicer.

This gas handling business is nice to theorize about;I don't have a ton of experience because I have never blown a case and have had only two blown primers in 40+ years of loading; one in Mauser and the other in a M70 Classic....never felt a thing in either case.I know this is different from blowing a case.

But I saw the aftermath with photos of someone who recently touched off a 270 case in a 280 chamber in a Rem 700(the supposed paragon for gas protection,or so we are told)and he got a face full and if he was not wearing glasses he would have gotten an eye full as well.

Saying it could have been worse in this action or that is not cold comfort,and is nothing more than idle speculation in my view. In the end, all bolt rifles are tubes within tubes and if a case lets go you are lucky to get off unscathed no matter what you are shooting....I would not try to choose based on that criteria.

Ruger has a one piece bolt, the Winchester has a furnace brazed bolt handle. We have both and the Featherweight is lighter but all things considered, I prefer the Ruger. Well, just the MKII that has true controlled round feed. I've read tests that have shown the investment cast receiver of the Ruger is actually stronger than the Winchester receiver. The pre-64 Model 70 receivers were not forged, contrary to some reports, but machined from chrome-moly bar stock. I don't know about the current Model 70 receivers.

I love them both! The M77 MKII in one of their boat paddle/skeleton/Zytel stocks is one of my favorite all time rifles, and likewise the M 70 be they pre 64 classics or the new ones rock I'm heading to the woods right now with a M70EW that us slick as snot, light and accurate.

Except that they don't offer an Edge for the Ruger and they do for the Winchester. If I were looking at buying a standard weight stock from Mcmillan I'd just stay with the factory Ruger stock.

To me the Winchester is worth the extra money. You get 5+1 mag capacity in standard calibers vs 4+1. The safety is a bit easier to operate, I've found the Winchesters to be a little more accurate and the rifles as a whole a little smoother working.

The practical side of me does trust the Ruger or older style Winchester trigger more. But so far the new Winchester trigger is proving it works and it is much better out of the box.

I do like the Rugers though. Especially for the money they would be a close 2nd place finisher for me if choosing a rifle for my own uses.

JMR,

I have read that the EDGE is not offered for the Rugers due to the small recoil lug. I can see how stresses would be high with the small area but don't know if this is true or not.

The MKii I just bought has a brown plywood stock and no checkering. The grey plywood that came with my 375 Hawkeye felt much softer (balsawood), and the checking was fuzzy. Between these two examples, I like the MKii a lot more.

Jason

Like others, owning both.. I have been totally satisfied with them...

my preference is Winchester, but that is due to tradition and how long Winchesters have been around...

but my Rugers have been just as well in their service and reliability....

or it you are caught in indecisiveness, you can do what I did on one rifle....

a Winchester barrel from a push feed, will screw onto a Ruger action... some minor chamber work.. or you can adjust the minor brass stretch/headspace on your reloading die...

did that for a couple of seasons, until I ended up with another Ruger barrel from a take off..

New rugers come with hex action screws, ruger will sell them to you if you want to retrofit

Great info guys.

The rifle geek inside me likes the one piece bolt over the brazed bolt on the Win. Whether it makes any real world difference or not is debatable. Thanks for that bit of info 270Win.

In terms of QC, it seems that both plants can release lemons. Have had some from Ruger (not a 77 though) and other manufacturers but they stand behind what they sell. Sucks to get a lemon, but on production rifles it can happen.

Bob - I agree on the gas handling speculation. Hard to know what will happen especially with a heavily overcharged case. Small gas leaks are different than case failures. I've heard conflicting reports on the 700 safety breech. Some got a face full of gas, others nothing. All just guesses unless someone ran some tests. The anecdotal reports I've heard with 98 Mausers in lab tests are that they didn't do as well as most people believe. If I had to wager money on the best design, I'd put my money on a Savage with the baffle behind the floating head, rear baffle at the bolt handle, and screw at the end. Next would be rifles with without raceways (full diameter bolts). If I win the lottery, I'll test every rifle design possible and report the results!

Matt - I'd love to try a Zytel boat paddle. Have you converted yours with studs for sling swivel, or just use the factory mounts?

Jason