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Joined: Nov 2013
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Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
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Got both, FN featherweight in .243 and just got a Hawkeye All-Weather in 7mm08. The mod. 70 was and is everything I thought it would be, no surprises. But I must say, I was REALLY pleased with the performance of the Hawkeye right out of the box. I traded the #5 ring for a #3 to make them lows instead of mediums, put a Redfield Revolution 3x9x40 on it and got three 3 shot groups .7 or less with factory Hornaday Whitetail 139 gr. interloks after just a couple of fouling shots. The rifle seems rock-solid, and is already smoothing out with a little extra cycling. I talked to a lady at Bell&Carlson this week, and I got the impression that the reason for the dearth of good aftermarket stocks for the Rugers in general is more to do with the fact that they are not a popular platform for customs as opposed to any particular design feature.
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Joined: Apr 2004
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Apr 2004
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for big game in the lower 48, If I had to limit myself to two rifles, then John I think you have the perfect pair...
and while I am a 260 Rem fan, I concede the 7/08 is a perfection equivalent...
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 9,472
Campfire Outfitter
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I shot my first deer with a SS Ruger boat paddle stocked .243 Win. With that said given the choice between the two I would take a Winchester, either BACO or NH every time.
For starters the Ruger investment cast receiver is shaped like a brick and just plain ugly. The bolt raceways are left as cast and are real rough. The triggers have sucked on the ones I have had, but these are different than current production. The magazine length on Rugers chambered in 300win, 338 win etc are shorter with no way of lengthening them(spacer can be removed on a Win). I dont care for the looks or the feel of the dog leg bolt handle on the Ruger. The Ruger recievers are straightened at the factory by beating the hell out of them with a hammer after they come out of the molds and cool(S.Otteson). If this isn't done properly the rings do not line up and require alot of lapping, BTDT. Winchesters have been on average for me more accurate and the barrels of better quality from a interior finish standpoint, but again this is with the pre hawk eye guns. The stocks on the Rugers make great clubs if you run out of ammo, and there are less aftermarket options.
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Joined: Aug 2006
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Aug 2006
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the hawkeye stocks are some of the best feeling ones out there. far from 'clubs'.....
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Joined: Sep 2012
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Campfire Outfitter
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I'll take the Ruger. I like the bolt, rings, and solid feel when the action is worked. I have put three different scopes on my boat paddle 270 over the years. None has ever shifted zero from bouncing around in a Jeep, summer, winter, wet, dry. Solid as a rock.
Some people like skinny women, others like them thick, some like them prissy and quiet, some like them a bit on the trashy side. If all else fails, get both. Unlike women, they don't care how many you fondle.
Sean
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Joined: Feb 2005
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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the hawkeye stocks are some of the best feeling ones out there. far from 'clubs'..... Cant comment on the new ones as I have only dealt with the older early 90's Rugers.
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Joined: Jan 2005
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 22,884 |
The BACO Winny loses points for brazed bolt and especially enclosed trigger. What's the point of a Winny if it ain't got the "ruggedness" that one gets it for?
Every Ruger I've had has been acceptable or better. The Hawkeye stock sure feels good to me, and the triggers are such easy fixes that they should be considered a benefit not a liability.
Overall, it'd be hard to beat a NH Winny FWT, with Ruger next. BACOs are a distant third IMO--no different than a Remmy or Tikka.
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Joined: Feb 2005
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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The BACO guns, like all model 70's made after 1964 have a two piece bolt. To describe said bolt as brazed is not at all accurate. The model 70 bolt handle and bolt body are both knurled, and produced in a manner such that the fit between the two pieces is an interference fit. Prior to being pressed together a copper washer is placed between the two parts, the bolt handle assembly is pressed onto the bolt body, and the whole works is placed in a induction furnace and heated such that the two parts are fused together when the copper melts. Even if the two pieces were not welded together you would be hard pressed to get the joint to fail. Essentially its a mechanical and a welded joint.
As far as the NH guns besting a BACO. Many of the NH model 70's sucked and not just from the late production. Almost all of them require at least some work and this includes the 5 digit serial, early production classics that I have owned. The BACO guns in contrast are put together much better. You might not think highly of the new trigger, but the old trigger, while a great design was very poorly executed, being made of cheap cast parts with sloppy tolerances and poor surface finish. Even after being warmed over by good gunsmiths, which I have had done, they still felt like crap. All my NH classics now wear Jewell triggers.
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Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 4,874
Campfire Tracker
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OP
Campfire Tracker
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Are you guys replacing the extractor on the FN guns or is the factory part a non-issue?
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Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 47,955
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Aug 2010
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The one I grab (most often) when it's time to go elk hunting: ![[Linked Image]](http://i1180.photobucket.com/albums/x401/chiefbsa/002_zps14694995.jpg)
I try to stick with the basics, they do so well. Nothing fancy mind you, just plain jane will get it done with style. You want to see an animal drop right now? Shoot him in the ear hole. BSA MAGA
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I have two Rugers and two Winchesters and I am very happy with all of them. My Rugers are M77 MARK IIs, so I don;t have any experience with Hawkeyes. The Rugers shoot very well with handloaded Gamekings. The Winchesters shoot a little better with factory ammo than do the Rugers but both shoot very well with handloads. You really can't go wrong with either IMHO.
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Joined: Jan 2005
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jan 2005
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The BACO guns, like all model 70's made after 1964 have a two piece bolt. To describe said bolt as brazed is not at all accurate. The model 70 bolt handle and bolt body are both knurled, and produced in a manner such that the fit between the two pieces is an interference fit. Prior to being pressed together a copper washer is placed between the two parts, the bolt handle assembly is pressed onto the bolt body, and the whole works is placed in a induction furnace and heated such that the two parts are fused together when the copper melts. Even if the two pieces were not welded together you would be hard pressed to get the joint to fail. Essentially its a mechanical and a welded joint.
As far as the NH guns besting a BACO. Many of the NH model 70's sucked and not just from the late production. Almost all of them require at least some work and this includes the 5 digit serial, early production classics that I have owned. The BACO guns in contrast are put together much better. You might not think highly of the new trigger, but the old trigger, while a great design was very poorly executed, being made of cheap cast parts with sloppy tolerances and poor surface finish. Even after being warmed over by good gunsmiths, which I have had done, they still felt like crap. All my NH classics now wear Jewell triggers.
Good observations, but I've seen more Winchester bolt handles come loose (two) than Remmys. If the "interference" fit turns out not to be tight and the copper washer doesn't take, then it comes apart just as easily as anything else. I've not had any of the crappy NH Winnys, and I've run a bunch in and out of here over the years, since they are what I started with as a teenager.
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Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 1,873
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
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The extractor on FN70's are machined extractors, as are the extractors on later New Haven Classics. No need to replace those.
Talk is cheap. It takes money to buy whiskey.
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Joined: Mar 2011
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Campfire Tracker
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OP
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BSA - thanks for the pic, but wood and blue in the PNWet? Just kidding, threads are better with pics and that's a nice looking rifle.
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Joined: Mar 2011
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Campfire Tracker
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OP
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Mar 2011
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The extractor on FN70's are machined extractors, as are the extractors on later New Haven Classics. No need to replace those. I recall some discussion on this here at the Fire. I thought the FN rifles had MIM. Here's the replacement part that some guys use: Aftermarket extractor
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 12,651
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Feb 2004
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Don't now and never have had a Winchester but my safe contains a pile of Ruger M77 and MKII rifles. Rugged, reliable and they all shoot great.
The only downside has been the triggers but they are easy to work on and all of mine are still factory originals that I've tuned and polished up as needed.
Coyote Hunter - NRA Patriot Life, NRA Whittington Center Life, GOA, DAD - and I VOTE!
No, I'm not a Ruger bigot - just an unabashed fan of their revolvers, M77's and #1's.
A good .30-06 is a 99% solution.
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 9,472
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 9,472 |
The BACO guns, like all model 70's made after 1964 have a two piece bolt. To describe said bolt as brazed is not at all accurate. The model 70 bolt handle and bolt body are both knurled, and produced in a manner such that the fit between the two pieces is an interference fit. Prior to being pressed together a copper washer is placed between the two parts, the bolt handle assembly is pressed onto the bolt body, and the whole works is placed in a induction furnace and heated such that the two parts are fused together when the copper melts. Even if the two pieces were not welded together you would be hard pressed to get the joint to fail. Essentially its a mechanical and a welded joint.
As far as the NH guns besting a BACO. Many of the NH model 70's sucked and not just from the late production. Almost all of them require at least some work and this includes the 5 digit serial, early production classics that I have owned. The BACO guns in contrast are put together much better. You might not think highly of the new trigger, but the old trigger, while a great design was very poorly executed, being made of cheap cast parts with sloppy tolerances and poor surface finish. Even after being warmed over by good gunsmiths, which I have had done, they still felt like crap. All my NH classics now wear Jewell triggers.
Good observations, but I've seen more Winchester bolt handles come loose (two) than Remmys. If the "interference" fit turns out not to be tight and the copper washer doesn't take, then it comes apart just as easily as anything else. I've not had any of the crappy NH Winnys, and I've run a bunch in and out of here over the years, since they are what I started with as a teenager. In regards to the bolt issue have no reason to not trust what your saying, but I would have to see it. RE NH classics. I have one right now that is chambered in 300 ultra. The machining is terrible with many tool marks. The ejector didn't work right because it was hanging up on bus caused by poor machine work. And the crappy cast trigger was circular filed right away. I also replaced the cast extractor and had Redneck time the safety, which was off.
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 7,731
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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Great info guys.
The rifle geek inside me likes the one piece bolt over the brazed bolt on the Win. Whether it makes any real world difference or not is debatable. Thanks for that bit of info 270Win.
In terms of QC, it seems that both plants can release lemons. Have had some from Ruger (not a 77 though) and other manufacturers but they stand behind what they sell. Sucks to get a lemon, but on production rifles it can happen.
Bob - I agree on the gas handling speculation. Hard to know what will happen especially with a heavily overcharged case. Small gas leaks are different than case failures. I've heard conflicting reports on the 700 safety breech. Some got a face full of gas, others nothing. All just guesses unless someone ran some tests. The anecdotal reports I've heard with 98 Mausers in lab tests are that they didn't do as well as most people believe. If I had to wager money on the best design, I'd put my money on a Savage with the baffle behind the floating head, rear baffle at the bolt handle, and screw at the end. Next would be rifles with without raceways (full diameter bolts). If I win the lottery, I'll test every rifle design possible and report the results!
Matt - I'd love to try a Zytel boat paddle. Have you converted yours with studs for sling swivel, or just use the factory mounts?
Jason
I have used as issued, however do at one point want to swap.
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Joined: Feb 2004
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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BSA - thanks for the pic, but wood and blue in the PNWet? Just kidding, threads are better with pics and that's a nice looking rifle.
He sold his synthetic and stainless gig to me, you know 'cause of all the tough hunting conditions we get down here in Alabama! ![[Linked Image]](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v232/mattpair/Gun%20Pics/F2621BE2-ADA9-4CFD-9B70-F7F79602ADF9_zpsspiasfua.jpg)
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Campfire Tracker
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Matt they have an original SS ruger in 338 WM, with a boat paddle stock over in Trussville 
The factory of the future will have only two employees, a man and a dog. The man will be there to feed the dog. The dog will be there to keep the man from touching the equipment. � WARREN G. BENNIS
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