24hourcampfire.com
24hourcampfire.com
-->
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Page 1 of 2 1 2
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 2,428
3
340mag Offline OP
Campfire Regular
OP Offline
Campfire Regular
3
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 2,428
back in the early 70s I purchased a S&W mod 27 with a 8 3/8" barrel and loaded it with factory loads to go deer hunting. I was not the worlds best shot, and knowing that I only hunted the areas where I knew the brush to be too thick for there to be much of a chance of even seeing deer past about 50 yards.
Now I found an area where HOGS were fairly easy to find but deer were a bit less common but still available.
I had initially loaded that revolver with 158 grain hollow point factory ammo, and over the first several years I found that the most frequent result, was that once I made a shot, Id spend the next 30 minutes getting down from a tree stand and slowly following a blood trail, but I always found the deer or hog within about 50-80 yards, from the place they were hit!
I didn,t blame this lack or perceived lack of effectiveness on the revolvers power as the bullets, Id used,because they usually zipped thru, the game and obviously produced a fatal wound.
I got into hand-loading because I knew I needed a great deal more practice and hand loads could be made for 1/4 the cost of factory ammo.
I did some research and changed to 170 grain cast bullets,
http://www.lymanproducts.com/lyman/bullet-casting/mould-details.php?entryID=13
this resulted in me shooting a great deal more and with that practice I gained a good deal of experience and accuracy improved dramatically, I blamed my lack of accuracy,with the factory loads in the first couple years on lack of practice , as the retrieved game was seldom hit exactly where I had aimed.
now my brother-in-law owned a 45 acp govt model and he frequently hunted with me with very similar results, but he got very few exits and at times longer trailing jobs.
we both decided to upgrade,as we both felt the pistols we used were not idea, but we went at the problem in a different way,
we both eventually decided that neither my revolver or the 45 acp pistol he used was the ideal deer hunting tool, but surprisingly my brother-in-law purchased a marlin in 357 mag lever action carbine because he had watched the results I got, with most shots being pass thru and exits, and concluded power was not the problem, and he concluded it was an accuracy issue and had nothing to do with power,
(plus since I was loading 357 mag, he could get FREE AMMO)
and he has used that 357 mag carbine for at least 3 decades with zero complaints.
I figured I might not be hitting exactly where I wanted too but with more practice that would be cured, so I started practicing a great deal more , which eventually got me into bullet casting and reloading, but I also realized that a revolver with a bit more punch would also help, so I purchased a 8 3/8" barrel S&W 44 mag.
the result might be predictable,to most of you guys, in that it took me about two more years to get really effective and accurate with the revolver , while my brother-in-law who purchased a marlin in 357 mag lever action, was instantly much more effective, as his accuracy went from 8"-10" 50 yard groups with the 45acp pistol, to 2" 50 yard groups shot with a 4x scope on his marlin carbine.
he had decided that a hand gun cartridge had plenty of power but its use in a revolver lacked accuracy and control, I decided to stick with the hand gun , and force myself to master the skill required,,but master its use took a great deal of practice and I also decided too hedge my bet by adding a bit more power.
now 35-40 plus years later I look back and its obvious we both made the correct decisions, as he still hunts with that 357 marlin carbine and I still have a 44 mag revolver, but I upgraded to a 10 5/8" barrel version with better sights.
and swapped to a 310 grain bullet, in the 44 mag and started to get consistently better results with a good many DRT kills.
I wondered if it was the power or my skill so after a few decades I started using the 357 mag revolver on hog hunts occasionally, and quickly realized that the 357 was very effective compared to what I used to be able to do with it,in that I now get a good many quick kills, and shooting its very easy, but its not a 44 mag, and its obvious its not hitting as hard.

Last edited by 340mag; 12/11/13.
GB1

Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 14,039
Campfire Outfitter
Offline
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 14,039
#1. placement
#2.placement
#3. placement
#4. ad nauseium (sp)
#5. wound channel 357vs429 entrance.

only things I have shot with a handgun was 1 bear 44mag drt
3 deer 1 drt and 2 tracked 50 and 100 yrds. bad placement.
1 moose 454 casuall. 4shots 10 yrds and down.

seems placement is the ticket.


the consolidation of the states into one vast republic, sure to be aggressive abroad and despotic at home, will be the certain precursor of that ruin which has overwhelmed all those that have preceded. Robert E Lee
~Molɔ̀ːn Labé Skýla~
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 4,742
Campfire Tracker
Offline
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 4,742
I've shot a couple of handfuls of deer and pigs with various .357, .44, .41, .45acp, and 9mm guns with 4-7" barrels.
My only hesitation is with the 9. 35 yds, 115 JHP stepping out, he ran 40 yds and bedded (never knew I was around), but was still alive an hour later. I don't recall exactly where I hit, but it wasn't bad (finished him with a Roberts when I went searching).
I'm willing to try the 9 again, though I might never get around to it. The other cartridges- all good, though better is better.


Campfire Pistolero x2

Only one human captain has ever survived battle with a Minbari fleet. He is behind me. You are in front of me. If you value your lives, be somewhere else. -Ambassador Delenn, Babylon 5
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 13,758
J
Campfire Outfitter
Offline
Campfire Outfitter
J
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 13,758
Placement/accuracy is a biggy...but a .357 carbine is a different animal from a .357 revolver in the effect of the bullet even with the same placement.

Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,900
J
Campfire 'Bwana
Online Sleepy
Campfire 'Bwana
J
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,900
Back in the 70's I used the Speer 160 grain half jacket semi wad cuter in the 357 mag and got excellent results on hogs with proper shot placement. I don't recall ever getting an exit.

IME the bullet choice plays a key role in desired effectiveness. Also a larger bored revolvers hit harder no doubt about that

Last edited by jwp475; 12/12/13.


I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
IC B2

Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 32,044
Campfire 'Bwana
Offline
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 32,044
no , and you won't if you use the right cal, bullet and shoot straight .


A Doe walks out of the woods today and says, that is the last time I'm going to do that for Two Bucks.
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 17,107
V
Campfire Ranger
Offline
Campfire Ranger
V
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 17,107
Years ago I trailed a slightly wounded, smallish doe with a SBH loaded with 200 grain hollow points. After it was all said and done, I didn't use a pistol on deer for a long time. I think they were Remington scalped jackets or something. They caused deep flesh wounds, like grenades.

Then I started reloading and discovered cast bullets shortly after. What a difference in performance.

Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 10,443
Campfire Outfitter
Offline
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 10,443
I would use a cast bullet in my .357 mag. I shot a buck a couple of years ago four times at close range. Three shots to the lungs, and a small deer that would NOT go down. I used a fourth shot to the head to put it down.

I was simply not impressed. I like my rifle better, but i suppose that if i had a good handload with a cast bullet, i would try something new and hope for a different result.


30-06 till i die, the greatest round ever!

I carry a gun because a cop is too heavy!

CEO of a Turdlike People: Turds & Tats Division... (per Ingwe grin )
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 4,742
Campfire Tracker
Offline
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 4,742
All or most of mine, BTW, were JHPs.

Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 17,107
V
Campfire Ranger
Offline
Campfire Ranger
V
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 17,107
I should have added that XTPs were not around in those days. I wouldn't hesitate to use them, and have on hogs out of a 444.

IC B3

Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 17,103
Campfire Ranger
Offline
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 17,103

My hunting handgun for bigger game is a RRH 5.5" in .45 Colt. My experience is very thin but I offer it FWIW. I've taken a buffalo heifer and two cow elk so far. My understanding as a neophyte was that I needed hard cast bullets for such game to get the penetration needed to the vitals from a less than broadside shot.

Well, penetration was indeed there-the broadside chest shots at both of the heifers were like a knife through butter. No problem. But in retrospect it was the more phlegmatic disposition of a buffalo that inclined them to rather stand around until the pump went dry and there was no follow-up needed.

However, with the more tightly wired elk, the 45 cal hole through the chest seemed only to grant a rather disheartening view of the animal, head up, making for distant meadows with plumes of "breath" rhythmically escaping her chest in the dry cold air. It took at least two hundred yards for her to run out of steam. Thankfully it was fairly open country.

The load in the three cases was 325-gr hard casts at about 1325 fps and while they are superb penetrators even the slab sided chest of a buffalo is not that resistant nor "deep". The cow elk is even less so. Weights of the animals were ~ 900 lbs for the buffs and maybe half that for the elk.

While placement trumps all ultimately, I've decided that a soft point with some expansion potential is what I need, particularly for much smaller whitetails, but even for elk-sized animals. Hornadys 300-gr XTP or XTP Mag come to mind.

Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 22,274
Campfire Ranger
Offline
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 22,274
I'm reminded I need to load some .480 Rugers. Thinking 275gr Gold Dots at ~1300 fps or so. Hopefully knock over a doe with it.


"...the designer of the .270 Ingwe cartridge!..."

Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 18,005
D
Campfire Ranger
Offline
Campfire Ranger
D
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 18,005
Originally Posted by tex_n_cal
I'm reminded I need to load some .480 Rugers. Thinking 275gr Gold Dots at ~1300 fps or so. Hopefully knock over a doe with it.



T&C, you might be loading those a tad light for our huge Texas whitetail does...


"I'm gonna have to science the schit out of this." Mark Watney, Sol 59, Mars
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 18,005
D
Campfire Ranger
Offline
Campfire Ranger
D
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 18,005
Originally Posted by 340mag

I wondered if it was the power or my skill so after a few decades I started using the 357 mag revolver on hog hunts occasionally, and quickly realized that the 357 was very effective compared to what I used to be able to do with it,in that I now get a good many quick kills, and shooting its very easy, but its not a 44 mag, and its obvious its not hitting as hard.


340... interesting post, thanks for sharing it.

I've done a modest bit of handgun deer-hunting, and used to hunt with a couple of other fellows in WI who were similarly inclined. We were all bit by the magnum-itis bug early on, so we all used various types of .44 Magnum or .45 Colt revolvers. And of course, we were pushing those guns to the limits... my hunting .45 Colt load for several years was a 300 gr RNFP cast bullet pushed at 1300 fps out of a Ruger Bisley. Like you said, it takes a lot of practice to get good enough to kill deer cleanly. If I recall correctly, it took me about 2 years to get to the point where I could be confident of a one-shot kill on deer out to 80-100 yards with my iron-sight Bisley. I never actually shot at a deer farther than 75, though. Part of the reason it takes so long is that even though I was pretty tough when it came to recoil, my hand couldn't take more than about 30 of those big boomer loads in one session. Well, it could, and I did, but the numbness and tingling that persisted for up to 2 days after such a session made me realize it wasn't a smart thing to be doing.

One friend, Jake, had been hunting with his S&W M29 using full-power 240 gr JHP loads at the same time, but had less success than I did with the .45, even though he was a much better shot than I was at the range. After several years, he switched to a long-slide 1911 in .460 Rowland, and his success on game improved considerably. He attributed it to being able to make a faster followup shot with the big auto than he had with his revolver. I suspect it had more to do with the heavy recoil of the M29.

Another friend, Jon, was likewise a M29 man, but recognized that the recoil was starting to get to him after 10+ years of shooting heavy loads (and truthfully, much as I love S&W's, a M29 is MUCH harder on your hand than a Bisley or even a plow-handle Blackhawk). He switched to a 6" barrel S&W M686 and loaded it with 158 gr XTP's at true magnum velocities, and topped it with a 2X scope. He was absolutely deadly with that revolver.

I have stuck with the .45 Colt for my handgun hunting, for the most part, but I've really cut down on the power of my loads. There's not much that walks on four feet that can't be killed with a 260-270 grain bullet travelling at 1000-1100 fps. In a Bisley, these loads are mild enough that I can shoot 100 rounds in one session without pain, and they still make plenty big holes on the receiving end. I use even milder loads in my M625 Mountain Gun: 265 gr RNFP cast bullets at 950 fps or so.

In the 357 Magnum, as you say there is a world of difference between the cartridge's performance in a carbine vs a revolver. The same thing is true with .45 Colt, BTW... I'm playing with some 310 gr cast bullet loads in a Rossi M1892 clone, and I'm getting velocities I can't quite believe, well within the pressure limits of the '92 action. I won't post those numbers until I finish load workup though, with photos, so folks won't take me for more of a lying sack of [bleep] than they already do. wink


"I'm gonna have to science the schit out of this." Mark Watney, Sol 59, Mars
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 24,660
Campfire Ranger
Offline
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 24,660
Originally Posted by 340mag
back in the early 70s I purchased a S&W mod 27 with a 8 3/8" barrel and loaded it with factory loads to go deer hunting. I was not the worlds best shot, and knowing that I only hunted the areas where I knew the brush to be too thick for there to be much of a chance of even seeing deer past about 50 yards.
Now I found an area where HOGS were fairly easy to find but deer were a bit less common but still available.
I had initially loaded that revolver with 158 grain hollow point factory ammo, and over the first several years I found that the most frequent result, was that once I made a shot, Id spend the next 30 minutes getting down from a tree stand and slowly following a blood trail, but I always found the deer or hog within about 50-80 yards, from the place they were hit!
I didn,t blame this lack or perceived lack of effectiveness on the revolvers power as the bullets, Id used,because they usually zipped thru, the game and obviously produced a fatal wound.
I got into hand-loading because I knew I needed a great deal more practice and hand loads could be made for 1/4 the cost of factory ammo.
I did some research and changed to 170 grain cast bullets,
http://www.lymanproducts.com/lyman/bullet-casting/mould-details.php?entryID=13
this resulted in me shooting a great deal more and with that practice I gained a good deal of experience and accuracy improved dramatically, I blamed my lack of accuracy,with the factory loads in the first couple years on lack of practice , as the retrieved game was seldom hit exactly where I had aimed.
now my brother-in-law owned a 45 acp govt model and he frequently hunted with me with very similar results, but he got very few exits and at times longer trailing jobs.
we both decided to upgrade,as we both felt the pistols we used were not idea, but we went at the problem in a different way,
we both eventually decided that neither my revolver or the 45 acp pistol he used was the ideal deer hunting tool, but surprisingly my brother-in-law purchased a marlin in 357 mag lever action carbine because he had watched the results I got, with most shots being pass thru and exits, and concluded power was not the problem, and he concluded it was an accuracy issue and had nothing to do with power,
(plus since I was loading 357 mag, he could get FREE AMMO)
and he has used that 357 mag carbine for at least 3 decades with zero complaints.
I figured I might not be hitting exactly where I wanted too but with more practice that would be cured, so I started practicing a great deal more , which eventually got me into bullet casting and reloading, but I also realized that a revolver with a bit more punch would also help, so I purchased a 8 3/8" barrel S&W 44 mag.
the result might be predictable,to most of you guys, in that it took me about two more years to get really effective and accurate with the revolver , while my brother-in-law who purchased a marlin in 357 mag lever action, was instantly much more effective, as his accuracy went from 8"-10" 50 yard groups with the 45acp pistol, to 2" 50 yard groups shot with a 4x scope on his marlin carbine.
he had decided that a hand gun cartridge had plenty of power but its use in a revolver lacked accuracy and control, I decided to stick with the hand gun , and force myself to master the skill required,,but master its use took a great deal of practice and I also decided too hedge my bet by adding a bit more power.
now 35-40 plus years later I look back and its obvious we both made the correct decisions, as he still hunts with that 357 marlin carbine and I still have a 44 mag revolver, but I upgraded to a 10 5/8" barrel version with better sights.
and swapped to a 310 grain bullet, in the 44 mag and started to get consistently better results with a good many DRT kills.
I wondered if it was the power or my skill so after a few decades I started using the 357 mag revolver on hog hunts occasionally, and quickly realized that the 357 was very effective compared to what I used to be able to do with it,in that I now get a good many quick kills, and shooting its very easy, but its not a 44 mag, and its obvious its not hitting as hard.


340,

That's an excellent story to show how it's not the equipment, but the loose nut behind the trigger. I've killed hogs with a 115gr 9mm, which demonstrates that it's shot placement every time. Failure is rarely the cartridges fault.

And I used to bear hunt with a gent who used a .357 magnum rifle; a re-barreled Winchester 92 I think it was. I used a .30-30 or an 8" Dan Wesson .357. I never saw any difference between the .357 Carbine and the .30-30, but I did see a difference between the carbine and the revolver; very noticable difference.

Yep, it's ALL about shot placement; and until the shot is placed correctly, there's really no sense in discussing anything else.

Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 2,465
M
Campfire Regular
Offline
Campfire Regular
M
Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 2,465
My experience on game with a handgun so far is limited to hogs, and at close (25 - 65 yards. .44 "mag" with a suppressor, 14" Contender barrel, 1050 fps or less, either 300gr Barnes "Busters" or 335gr Hard Cast. Normally one shot kills when placed in the neck or with shoulder shots, a few 2 kills with one shot, NEVER recovered a bullet so far.

Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 22,274
Campfire Ranger
Offline
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 22,274
Originally Posted by DocRocket
Originally Posted by tex_n_cal
I'm reminded I need to load some .480 Rugers. Thinking 275gr Gold Dots at ~1300 fps or so. Hopefully knock over a doe with it.



T&C, you might be loading those a tad light for our huge Texas whitetail does...


grin well, I do have some 370gr Cast Performance. I could try for a two-fer...or a hat trick grin

Last year I shot one pig with the Federal HST 230gr .45 ACP +P out of a Colt 1911. The shot went ahead of the shoulder, instead of behind it, but it still dropped right there. I might just slap them in my Les Baer and take them instead of the big Ruger. They are somewhat easier to find than .45 Gold Dots.

These are important issues to consider, of course, prior to the Campfire Hog Hunt in March... smile


"...the designer of the .270 Ingwe cartridge!..."

Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 1,676
B
Campfire Regular
Offline
Campfire Regular
B
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 1,676
Sorry, it is what you use and the bullet/boolit you shoot from it.
I have several tons of deer killed with revolvers and every caliber needs something different in the way of the bullet.
The .44 will never fail with a heavy, hard WLN or WFN. The Lee 310 is great. The .475 has dropped about every deer in it's tracks, four this season so far, with a hard boolit.
I don't like a .357 revolver because of poor bullet choices and light weights. The .41 starts to get close to right. The .44 starts it, the .480 is great and the .475 is good from a tiny deer to the largest animal.
I have problems with some calibers, 45-70 revolver and .500 JRH that both need cast boolit adjustments. Either will poke a hole with no blood trail, kill perfect or blow meat to hell and back depending on the alloy.
The .454 can fail on deer too with the wrong choice.

Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 14,039
Campfire Outfitter
Offline
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 14,039
Doc, lets see your work up for that 92. I have one in 454 and surely would love some good 45 loads for it. great little guns.


the consolidation of the states into one vast republic, sure to be aggressive abroad and despotic at home, will be the certain precursor of that ruin which has overwhelmed all those that have preceded. Robert E Lee
~Molɔ̀ːn Labé Skýla~
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 18,005
D
Campfire Ranger
Offline
Campfire Ranger
D
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 18,005
deerstalker, I believe I'll get to that in the new year... right now I'm busy trying to kill a 150+ class whitetail. The bullets are ready, I've cast about norty-feven of 'em...

It's no secret I'm a proponent of hunting with hot-loaded pistol-caliber leverguns.


"I'm gonna have to science the schit out of this." Mark Watney, Sol 59, Mars
Page 1 of 2 1 2

Moderated by  RickBin 

Link Copied to Clipboard
AX24

587 members (1lessdog, 160user, 10gaugemag, 10Glocks, 1337Fungi, 1234, 65 invisible), 2,836 guests, and 1,171 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Statistics
Forums81
Topics1,191,341
Posts18,468,725
Members73,928
Most Online11,491
Jul 7th, 2023


 


Fish & Game Departments | Solunar Tables | Mission Statement | Privacy Policy | Contact Us | DMCA
Hunting | Fishing | Camping | Backpacking | Reloading | Campfire Forums | Gear Shop
Copyright © 2000-2024 24hourcampfire.com, Inc. All Rights Reserved.



Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5
(Release build 20201027)
Responsive Width:

PHP: 7.3.33 Page Time: 0.099s Queries: 15 (0.003s) Memory: 0.9169 MB (Peak: 1.1033 MB) Data Comp: Zlib Server Time: 2024-04-25 20:04:32 UTC
Valid HTML 5 and Valid CSS