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Re: Grizz are Once Again Denning on the Plains [Re: roundoak] #8391250 12/24/13
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We are not the plains but we are dealing with bears, 28 confirmed grizzly kills this summer alone. We need delisting now.


Roundoak,

Our horses haven't been bothered too much by the bear. We did have a bear that went by a corral at one of our cabins. The horses broke out and headed for home. Luckily we were headed home that day anyway and they usually run back to the home place and we follow in trucks.

At the camp in the wilderness south of the park our horses are around the bear all the time. Once we had a mule that was loose grazing chase a bear out of the meadow at camp.

If they are surprised by each other in close there is usually some excitement. That doesn't happen very often though given the noise horses make. Although I did almost run over a cub once along a creek. I was by myself trotting into camp when my dog and horse just locked up. Out of the bushes walks a small cub. Momma was just around the bend feeding in a clearing.

I've thought about how things would work out if wolves or a bear would go after hobbled or picketed horses. But I haven't heard of anything like that happening.

I actually think horses help if we are forced to come back the next day for a bull. Riding up with two guys plus 4 head of horses/mules seems to be somewhat intimidating for bears that have taken over a kill. They don't go far, but so far have backed off enough for us to get things loaded and get out of there.

BP-B2

Re: Grizz are Once Again Denning on the Plains [Re: Ralphie] #8391331 12/24/13
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That's pretty much the advice for hikers confronting a bear. Show your numbers, spread your jackets to make yourself look bigger, talk to them as one backs off, etc. They can't count supposedly, but they don't seem to like being confronted by multiples. It is seldom when a group of several people are attacked, tho they may be bluff charged and huffed at.

Of course, when surprised at close range, or protecting cubs, mates or a kill site, all bets are off.

A few years ago in my moose hunting area on the Kenai, a spring survey crew tangled with a denned brown bear - big one too.. The first one or two crew walked within 15 feet of the den unknowingly before the bear panicked, erupted out of the den, and on the fly chomped the closest man's head,who was on his escape route, killing him, and left at a dead run. F&G was able to track the bear for about 5 miles before losing the trail. It was still running flat out by the tracks.

As I recall, Great Falls was a hotspot for trouble with the bears for L&C, mostly because of the buffalo that got killed going over the falls. Mucho food - mucho aggressive bears! Of course, shooting ball thru a single-shot ML wasn't all that much help either! I don't recall offhand if percussion caps had been invented/in use as of that time. Either way it puckers me just thinking about tackling a griz with the equipment they had. Brave men.

Sam- you might be surprised at how well properly educated bears can coexist with humans. I will stipulate that neighbors that feed their dogs outside, keep chickens, etc without an electric fence, hang bloody moose parts in a shed that has been used for years for same, etc. have more problems than I do. And I do hang my moose parts outside for a few days before processing, but try to avoid as much drippings contamination as possible - had no problem yet - except with that stinky head.... smile I do have a garage there now - all I need is a few moose parts! I have semi-plans for an add-on cement block meat-hanging shed.

Once a bear finds food (or learns to kill livestock) in a certain place, usually the only cure for deterrence of that bear thereafter is killing it.

Food (exclusive of livestock!), water, shelter, space. Much of western Plains has enough of all of those for bear. There WILL be undesirable bear/livestock interactions, but I believe much of that country can support a limeded bear population.

When I left ND in late 60's there had been a few poo-pooed "unconfirmed" reports of cougar here and there. People -mostly livestock owners and deer hunters- swore there was no way lion would ever inhabit the area again as there was no "room" for them. ND now has a permanent population with permit season on them, without much conflict elsewhere.

Last edited by las; 12/24/13.

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Re: Grizz are Once Again Denning on the Plains [Re: Sagebrusher] #8391379 12/24/13
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Originally Posted by Sagebrusher
Originally Posted by DeerTracker
The cops chased one right through my parents yard at night with lights on and sirens going a while back. Every once in a while we get a black bear or lion in town but its usually grizzlies. A bird hunter killed one a few years ago a mile or two away from where my brother was stuck in his treestand. It was a sow with cubs also. She charged him and he killed her with a 20ga. She was close enough that she slid right up to his feet. And FWP was stupid enough to do an autopsy on her to determine cause of death. I guess they couldn't see the big hole in her head with a plastic wad sticking out of it!

Wow! Must have been nearly point blank!


This has happened more than once for pheasant hunters on the Flathead Res. north of Missoula.

Re: Grizz are Once Again Denning on the Plains [Re: Ralphie] #8391420 12/24/13
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Our horse group (club) have enjoyed the riding opportunities in Montana for several years and I can recall only 1 or 2 encounters with bear. Cougars are another story.

We need to continue to be vigilant and expect the unexpected.

Wayne


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Re: Grizz are Once Again Denning on the Plains [Re: Mule Deer] #8392312 12/24/13
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Originally Posted by Mule Deer
Attacked in what way?

I don't remember all the details.

First one wasn't as serious, but there was a general butt-kicking delivered by a grizzly.

The second attack was really serious. He is sure that the only way he saved his friend's life (they were both attacked) was by using "blood stop" clotting material.

He told me that he does not favor handguns for defense. He said his attacks both happened so quickly that there would have been no chance at drawing an aiming a handgun. Both were eventually ended with the use of bear spray as I recall. I will give him a call and ask details if you wish. He is an engineer in Bozeman that I've worked with some and more of an acquaintance really. He is definitely an honest guy who spends a lot of time outdoors.

IC-A

Re: Grizz are Once Again Denning on the Plains [Re: roundoak] #8392417 12/24/13
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Originally Posted by roundoak
Would be interested in the details.

If I recollect, I learned the pic scene was on the Long X ranch up by Malta along the Fourchette Creek. Course my recollection may be lacking. grin




Roundoak, you are way closer than I was.


Timber Creek from what my dad thought. I've never rode out there but it's only 20 or so miles from where we graze.


Frank Howe?



After hearing the story Charlie went out with a couple cowboys and they took him to the spot and explained the scene.



Later on Frank had a bar in Hinsdale but was too generous and went broke.






Ralphie, you guys lost 28 head in one year to grizzlies?


Damn!

Re: Grizz are Once Again Denning on the Plains [Re: laker] #8392514 12/25/13
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Originally Posted by laker
I'd still take the bears over the cats.


Here in Alberta we have grizzly bears moving back onto the prairie as well. Additionally we have cougars on the prairie, the Cypress Hills in SE Alberta has seen a re-population of the cats in the last few years. In fact it has been noted that the Hills have the highest density of cougars in North America. Last count I saw was 35-40 cats. We have them roaming through the various river valleys that lead from the foothills out onto the prairie with the Oldman/Bow River watersheds giving them a near direct conduit from the mountains to the Cypress Hills area.
Additionally, in the late 1800's, the Medicine Hat area had one of the highest densities of grizzly bears in North America. Cougars and griz both are just returning to their original stomping grounds.

Re: Grizz are Once Again Denning on the Plains [Re: troutfly] #8392548 12/25/13
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I don't think anybody is advocating for exploding grizz populations in every corner east of the front range.

I do think its great they are expanding and hopefully a hunt could result.

I get there will be encounters. I have hunted and fished among some big coastal bears and still hunt where some grizzly roam. I'm just not gonna wet my pants about it.

Ranchers have an obvious concern and I can appreciate that.

Keep the numbers small and find balance.





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Re: Grizz are Once Again Denning on the Plains [Re: MadMooner] #8392954 12/25/13
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Originally Posted by MadMooner
I don't think anybody is advocating for exploding grizz populations in every corner east of the front range.

I do think its great they are expanding and hopefully a hunt could result.

I get there will be encounters. I have hunted and fished among some big coastal bears and still hunt where some grizzly roam. I'm just not gonna wet my pants about it.

Ranchers have an obvious concern and I can appreciate that.

Keep the numbers small and find balance.





Without the presence of bears, wolves and lions, we'd be at a loss. From an emotional (psychological) standpoint, the presence of those apex predators is a benefit for humans.

I don't know of any modern-day cattlemen who'd rather that lions, bears and wolves be extirpated. I don't know of any modern-day outdoorsmen who'd want those apex predators eliminated, either.

Granted, you can't allow nature to just run wild. But, without the existence and presence of large apex predators, humans are at a loss and ecosystems suffer, as well.

Probably what suffers most in the lack of apex predators, are the various ecosystems.

Re: Grizz are Once Again Denning on the Plains [Re: Maverick940] #8393040 12/25/13
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Originally Posted by Maverick940



I don't know of any modern-day cattlemen who'd rather that lions, bears and wolves be extirpated. I don't know of any modern-day outdoorsmen who'd want those apex predators eliminated, either.


I take it you have not attended any grange, farm bureau or farm coop meetings in these modern times.

Last edited by roundoak; 12/25/13.

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Re: Grizz are Once Again Denning on the Plains [Re: roundoak] #8393087 12/25/13
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Originally Posted by roundoak
Originally Posted by Maverick940



I don't know of any modern-day cattlemen who'd rather that lions, bears and wolves be extirpated. I don't know of any modern-day outdoorsmen who'd want those apex predators eliminated, either.


I take it you have not attended any grange, farm bureau or farm coop meetings in these modern times.


I've attended even worse during the past 35 years, or so. It's frustrating sometimes, trying to find balance from both sides of the natural resource management spectrum (non-consumptive and consumptive). The sad thing is that most Americans fall in the middle of the spectrum, but yet the two extreme ends of the spectrum seem to be the ones who continue to fan the flame of disparity.

Re: Grizz are Once Again Denning on the Plains [Re: SamOlson] #8393687 12/25/13
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Originally Posted by SamOlson
[quote=roundoak]






Ralphie, you guys lost 28 head in one year to grizzlies?


Damn!


From branding season through early September. The first few were right on the meadows right behind the head quarters. Found them when we were gathering to brand. Then through out the summer on the mtn.

Re: Grizz are Once Again Denning on the Plains [Re: Ralphie] #8393806 12/25/13
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28 head. Cha-ching, cha-ching, that is a significant revenue loss.


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Re: Grizz are Once Again Denning on the Plains [Re: Maverick940] #8393951 12/25/13
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Originally Posted by Maverick940
Originally Posted by MadMooner
I don't think anybody is advocating for exploding grizz populations in every corner east of the front range.

I do think its great they are expanding and hopefully a hunt could result.

I get there will be encounters. I have hunted and fished among some big coastal bears and still hunt where some grizzly roam. I'm just not gonna wet my pants about it.

Ranchers have an obvious concern and I can appreciate that.

Keep the numbers small and find balance.





Without the presence of bears, wolves and lions, we'd be at a loss. From an emotional (psychological) standpoint, the presence of those apex predators is a benefit for humans.

I don't know of any modern-day cattlemen who'd rather that lions, bears and wolves be extirpated. I don't know of any modern-day outdoorsmen who'd want those apex predators eliminated, either.

Granted, you can't allow nature to just run wild. But, without the existence and presence of large apex predators, humans are at a loss and ecosystems suffer, as well.

Probably what suffers most in the lack of apex predators, are the various ecosystems.



Suffering ecosystems due to lack of apex predators... lol. Humans at a loss? Really. How is that?

Hey griz are indigenous to much of North America, maybe we should re-introduce them in downtown Peoria Ill, I hear the deer are excessive there...Perhaps we'll achieve some cathartic emotional fulfillment.

And because you don't know any cattleman opposed to plains griz, wolves etc, they must all want them.

1+1=3


Re: Grizz are Once Again Denning on the Plains [Re: Mule Deer] #8404055 12/28/13
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Originally Posted by Mule Deer
For quite a while the betting was against a wolf season, but today yes, you can buy wolf tags at Montana Wal-Marts.

Montana lost its grizzly season in the early 1990's when a judge ruled the game department had never done an environmental impact study to back up their contention of sufficient bears. They've been gathering data ever since, including by using the best evidence of bear numbers yet, DNA analysis of hair left at various baited sites.

It will take a while, with the inevitable lawsuits, but the recent federally recommended delisting of the Yellowstone bears will be major step toward a hunting season in the lower 48. I'm guessing one will occur in the next five years or so. The antis will sue and sue, but the USFWS and Montana game department are now very experienced with their tricks, and will be well-prepared.


The lawyers for the antis don't want to win, they just want to make bank with a continuous fight.

We probably need a Rocky Mountain Grizzly Foundation, but it would probably just end up as commie as the RMEF.


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Re: Grizz are Once Again Denning on the Plains [Re: roundoak] #8404392 12/29/13
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Re: Grizz are Once Again Denning on the Plains [Re: gonehuntin] #8404393 12/29/13
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We are all Rhodesians now.






Re: Grizz are Once Again Denning on the Plains [Re: gonehuntin] #8404395 12/29/13
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"To compel a man to furnish funds for the propagation of ideas he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical." -- Thomas Jefferson

We are all Rhodesians now.






Re: Grizz are Once Again Denning on the Plains [Re: DeerTracker] #8428482 01/04/14
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Deer tracker,
Those are some scary tracks in the snow!

Re: Grizz are Once Again Denning on the Plains [Re: Slidellkid] #8429273 01/04/14
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Griz Country?
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